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Old 12-13-2009, 08:35 AM   #51
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
Re: Dan Harden's PA Seminar


As promised, here is a more detailed response to your post.

At this point I would like to throw out a disclaimer - this post (as well as my other posts) are personal opinions based on my past experiences and training in the aiki arts. They are not meant to reflect the views of my current teachers and should not be considered as such in any way; although it is possible they may have similar opinions, I do not speak for them - they are quite capable of speaking for themselves (especially Dan )

As Dan mentioned in a previous post in this thread, I came to him in August with an 'interesting' foot in the IS door. A small part of that foot consisted of some body movements from Daito, but the majority of that 'foot' consisted of the mental stuff I picked up from the Ki Society back in the 70s. I remember a conversation I had with Dan back in August where I stated Tohei was on the right track all along and all those Ki naysayers had mentally blocked their own chances of developing any true aiki skills - I can't remember Dan's exact response, but I do remember he was amused maybe he will jump in with some comment on this later.

Anyway, this unsolicited corroboration of my Ki Society training has convinced me that one way to get a foot in the door to IS/IP is to follow Tohei's four principles of Mind and Body Coordination - of course to advance from there, you then need to get with one of the IS Wizards such as Dan, Mike S, or the Ark.

As for some of the gems I mentioned, please see my responses to your comments below:

Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post

...so....you can only approach it indirectly. (!) And in just this way it does and will continue to remain hidden in plain sight. So much of this existence's deeper reality is hidden in exactly this way. In physics we had a phrase .. "sneaking up on the problem"; when it did not yield to a direct approach/assault. I am also reminded of a (para-)phrase: "Who can know the heart of a man?"
The above sounds like your Robitussin talking actually, I believe it can be approached directly once the path has been identified - the trick is finding the right path for *YOU* (this is a gem)

Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
re: cones
Well I know of rods and cones; but that is not the type of vision or perception i think you're talking about. This is the first I have ever heard of what you two mention; so it shows how little I know. I'll keep my eyes and ears pealed. Frankly; I was a bit taken aback by those two last mentions of the importance of perception of the IP/aiki. I am one of those whose (poor) model of it is embedded fully and completely in the *physical* body. Certainly the mind and spirit are *in* the body (to one degree or another); and these factors must be central; but I did think of it primarily as a *bodily* training. The yi leads the qi of course..but a body effect. I didn't anticipate that; nor do i understand what you mean. but frankly; i do believe you that it cannot be typed out. so no worries there. i'll take it as a 'heads up'.
Again, some good Robitussin ramblings in there Let's just say that the Mind is the dominant and leading factor here - after all, have you ever heard it called Body and Mind Coordination ? no! it is Mind and Body Coordination - (this is a gem)

Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
That is very interesting. Thank you for sharing. I will have to think about how you wrote it; but it sounds almost like pointing to...like a mastery of emotion, and how it rouses (or can be used to manipulate) the body.
Don't know if that's what you were driving at....but I recall once reading that some of the stuff is likened to a man learning how to play his nervous system like a musician plays an instrument. That could be way off base; but that is what popped into mind.
Interesting point about the emotion perspective - no, it was not what I was driving at, but if you look at emotion as something other than logic, then yes, maybe it could be some form of emotional thing - however, I associate it more with mental imaging and intuitive feeling within all the body systems as well as an awareness of energies outside the body within your immediate vicinity (there may be a couple gems in there)

Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Well; I can understand mastery of self. (to a point).
Can intellectualize control over subtle skills; queues; and mastery over mis-direction/trickery; but I think there is another side to this for a lot of people.. (not saying it's you guys! okay!?)
I wonder if this is a launching point for self-delusion in people. You know there are a lot of people that try to manipulate reality with willpower alone. (For instance: this is the heart of the 'commercial success' of a book called 'The Secret'; which I find to be a misdirection in thee highest order) I do not know what you are talking about for sure; and in fact; i don't think it's this; but manipulation of material reality with willfull self is the highest-law of the world's second oldest religion..
Also; it reminds me of how someone mentioned how Ushiro taught about the (importance of) eyes; and the lack of consensus; and just what is being pointed to. I don't know.
Personally; I have become wary of delusion with things concerning perception; for with 'training of the mind/spirit' the thing is...you are effecting the very instrument that keeps you grounded and keeps you tethered to what 'normal' is. Put simply ; if that 'instrument' becomes catastrophically/erroneously miscalibrated; who can say where it will take you? You certainly will be the last to know. (/rant)
/random thoughts.
robitussin. fnord.
I think your Robitussin had peeked with this one I just have two words for this: Positive Mind (this is big gem)

Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post

anyway; thanks so much for all the interesting discussion; i feel like an oaf who's making a scene in a restaurant...you guys are the show; but it is so damn interesting; you'll have to forgive me for sticking my neck out and opening up my yap. i'll try to keep it down.
All the best,

p.s. Your website is very interesting and has some great launching off points. Thanks!
Thanks for your comments and I hope your cold gets better. In closing, I will leave you with the biggest gem (IMO) of them all that will help to get you going in the right direction:
"Get your mind out of your head and get it in your center"

Good luck in your training

(as usual, please excuse any typos - I have been cursed and just can not avoid them )
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:57 AM   #52
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
Re: Dan Harden's PA Seminar

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
As far as the crying bit goes.

I think its not so much balling your eyes out but rather being "filled up " with tears of frustration. I have seen it happen in MMA settings when newbies were completely dominated. I have made it happen in men who found they couldn't do anything while they were getting "handled" seemingly at will. It is a very unsettling feeling to be so completely dominated and frustrated and fascinated all at the same time. I don't name names, but it has happened to some of the readers here when they sparred with me or they have seen it happen.
It did not happen with me, I had no doubt going into it that Dan could hand me my ass - and when he did, I actually laughed with joy because it was so neat

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Old 12-13-2009, 10:45 AM   #53
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 694
Re: Dan Harden's PA Seminar

Hi Greg -
Thank you for the thoughts.

This: i loved.
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
It did not happen with me, I had no doubt going into it that Dan could hand me my ass - and when he did, I actually laughed with joy because it was so neat
Thomas, that is very interesting regarding shen.

Cheers gents!

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Old 12-14-2009, 09:30 AM   #54
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
Re: Dan Harden's PA Seminar

Josh drew my attention to an old post of mine.
It applies to the discussion at hand.

It's pointless to try and convince everyone. At a point you need to concentrate on your self. Perhaps some folks are getting a clearer understanding of why there all these stories of man going off to train alone and they coming back "masters" with a vision.

So why consider leaving Aikido? Change just you!
There's no point in driving / flying out to meet certain folks if your not going to do the work when you are alone. The real test is going to be finding folks who will train and focus. This training is harder in the sense that it requires an active mind in prolonged training. We have a saying that "The mind gives out before the body." It sounds perfectly goofy to say in writing-as do the descriptions of what the mind is doing to the body in the first place. It also sounds goofy to say "You sweat your butt off standing more or less still." Or "Wind through the body." But to those who have tried to do the work-they know exactly-what we're talking about.
The first order of business is feeling it first hand and having it explained to you, then training at home alone, then going back to train and test and correct, then back alone, and so on and so on. At a point in time you will say "My body is changing" Its just the way of it. At least I can say as much as you power lift your body will strengthen-as much as you body condition internally -your body will strengthen as well. And your sensitivity will go through the roof.
"Going back to do complex techniques?" complex techniques really aren't budo to begin with- and never were. They are an artiface, an after effect of too much dojo training. That said if folks get their jollies by doing them, yes, they will be easier. In fact drawing-in and gaining a magnetic feel as the opponent is drawn to you will increase with this training. You're really controlling you and just being you not trying to really control them. But even with all that- I always advocate simple techniques in budo.

It may still be brighter days ahead for those seeking the heart of the old budo.
Thanks Josh
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