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Old 11-18-2009, 10:35 AM   #1
dps
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Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

How is internal strength related to Suwariwaza - Kokyuho?

David
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Old 11-18-2009, 10:55 AM   #2
C. David Henderson
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Great question.
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:05 AM   #3
jss
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Intimately.
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:07 AM   #4
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Just a tool for training internal skills.

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:19 AM   #5
C. David Henderson
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Jeremy,

Are you making a distinction between "strength" and "skills" here? Could you say more?

Respectfully

cdh
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Old 11-18-2009, 03:03 PM   #6
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Jeremy,

Are you making a distinction between "strength" and "skills" here? Could you say more?

Respectfully

cdh
Thanks,
I sort of mis read or mis read into the question. I think that Kokyu-ho, agete can be a tool for develping internal strength and a marker to see if you've got some of it..

I think that being seated takes the ability to bend the knees out of the equation.

I guess that I'm thinkig out loud here but they don't have to be related.

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:47 PM   #7
eyrie
 
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
How is internal strength related to Suwariwaza - Kokyuho?
What do you mean "how related"? Kokyu-ho is an (IS development) exercise/method... The more appropriate question, to me, would be, how and in what way does kokyu-ho develop IS?

Ignatius
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Old 11-18-2009, 05:31 PM   #8
Lonin
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

my opinion is that the suwariwaza part allows for focussed feeling of uke's forces and direction without the distraction of movement. Upper body relaxation with lower body rootedness is the core of "internal" martial arts. kokyu Ho movements of arm extension promotes grounding. Wrist rotations promotes the ability to reduce ukes power without losing connection and attachment. Finally movement of nage's core either linearly or by rotation brings about kuzhushi. Hope this will help.
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Old 11-18-2009, 06:35 PM   #9
dps
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
What do you mean "how related"? Kokyu-ho is an (IS development) exercise/method... The more appropriate question, to me, would be, how and in what way does kokyu-ho develop IS?
Well that would be a relationship between the two.
Do you have an answer to your question?

David
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Old 11-18-2009, 07:09 PM   #10
eyrie
 
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

If I did, would I be asking the question?

Ignatius
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Old 11-18-2009, 07:40 PM   #11
Abasan
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

I think it helps with developing Aiki skills, not Internal Strength. No doubt someone with Internal Strength would be able to do a semblance of kyoku-ho. So would a person who has no IS but has good Aiki skills.

But there are better ways to train IS than this, so I wouldn't expect it to help much in IS development. It helps tremendously in Aiki development though.

Loh mention some good points. At the end of it all, you can see the difference when done right and when done improperly. Some people raise their armpits thereby losing chushin, some posture up thus find it hard to learn uprooting and instead resort to pushing, some don't extend and thus uke can push them in, some are rigid thus uke can capture their center easily. So uke learns to develop extension without pushing or rigidity or floppiness and he can do it faster because he's training the upper body first and keeping center while seated is easier on the mind. That's the basic aspect I think anyway.

Last edited by Abasan : 11-18-2009 at 07:43 PM.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 11-19-2009, 04:52 AM   #12
Mark Uttech
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Onegaishimasu, suwariwaza and kokyuho are ways of exploring traditional ways of training. Maybe internal strength becomes a discovered result. In suwariwaza, for example, you do need to move your body as a single unit. You also explore another way of moving. My two cents, for what it's worth.

In gassho,

Mark

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Old 11-19-2009, 09:44 AM   #13
Rob Watson
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
Onegaishimasu, suwariwaza and kokyuho are ways of exploring traditional ways of training.
Mostly it just wreaks ones knees ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 11-19-2009, 04:10 PM   #14
Flintstone
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Mostly it just wreaks ones knees ...
I always find this here and there. Maybe not moving right? I'm sure my suwariwaza's not that good, but it helps strengthening my knees, not wreaking them. For me.
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Old 11-20-2009, 03:25 AM   #15
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

It is a nice open ended question, good for internet discussion or argument.
What is your meaning of internal strength? Connected fascia, chi or ki stream, using whole body as single muscle, wave power, "zero power", emptying partners strength through mental vacuum, correct body alignment, physics at work, spinal torsion, subtle hand changes? etc.....
What is koyku ho. "breath power"? good body mechanics, raising energy flow through coordinated hands, arms, hips to tanden and on into ground path, perfect timing and absorption, arm wrestling,one-upmanship? etc...
I'm sure if we actually practised together some exploration would become possible, until then we just swop opinions without a genuine shared context.
regards and respect.

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Old 02-13-2010, 05:46 AM   #16
bulevardi
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
Onegaishimasu, suwariwaza and kokyuho are ways of exploring traditional ways of training.
How do you train on onegaishimasu ?

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Old 03-12-2010, 02:20 AM   #17
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Quote:
Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
How do you train on onegaishimasu ?
How do you train in onegaishimasu , simple, rather than just say the phrase , you should genuinely and with sincerity offer thanks to your teacher/fellow students for what you are about to receive.Its a bit like saying grace [ in earlier times] prior to eating the food that has been provided for you .The teacher provides you with food [the waza ] , you provide him the vehicle [as Uke ] to practice the waza. So mutual thanks and respect are given both by Sensei and by the students.
The phrase is not just a word it symbolises and attitude of thanks and gratitude for the lessons.
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:40 AM   #18
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Quote:
Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
How do you train on onegaishimasu ?
Say, "Own a guy, she must!" real fast, several times a day.

Josh Reyer

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Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 03-26-2010, 03:40 AM   #19
bulevardi
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Anyway. Kokyuho is for me personally one of the more important exercises in Aikido.
It even gets more difficult when I always get a total different explanation on how to do that technique from each new partner I train with.
Now I understand that some more advanced members in my club say that they finally understood the technique after several years of training.

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Old 03-26-2010, 05:24 AM   #20
Eva Antonia
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
Say, "Own a guy, she must!" real fast, several times a day.
Hahaha!
I started memorising it with the Turkish "Onu kaşımaz!'
(it wouldn't scratch him!)

But now, I can even write it

Best,

Eva
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Old 03-26-2010, 07:25 AM   #21
DH
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Re: Suwariwaza - Kokyuho & internal strength

Quote:
Dirk Desmet wrote: View Post
Anyway. Kokyuho is for me personally one of the more important exercises in Aikido.
It even gets more difficult when I always get a total different explanation on how to do that technique from each new partner I train with.
Now I understand that some more advanced members in my club say that they finally understood the technique after several years of training.
Kokyu-ho isn't a technique-it's a state of being.
As such, everything, and anyone touching you becomes a kokyu involved move.
Trouble arises when the vast majority of people in an art all do something consistently and in consort and establish a new standard- divorced from the source. It doesn't matter that it's wrong, and that it misses the point entirely.
Wrong...becomes the norm.
Right is unrecognizable and no longer even pursued.

Dan
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