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Old 04-12-2002, 10:44 AM   #51
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
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Kyusho found elsewhere too

Thanks again Andy and Chuck, I really like your comedy act....

I just picked my daughter from Philadelphia to take her for Wisdom teeth removal, and we stopped at Barnes and Noble Books in Cherry Hill, NJ ... I found a very cheap and affordable book on

ESSENTIAL ANATOMY FOR HEALING AND MARTIAL ARTS by Marc Tedeschi

Let's see, on the back it says Artist, Designer, Educator, hold fifth degree in Hapkido (Korean Aikido descened from Sokatu Takada /excuse me if my spelling is off) a martial art that integrates both healing and combative techniques .... a student of Eastern concepts of human physiology, he has practiced martial arts since 1974, training extensively in Hapkido, Taekwondo, Judo, Jujitsu, and Karate. first edition 2001/second printing 2001.

I will tell you what, for under twenty dollars it has as much information as the $100-$200 books in charts, anatomy charts, meridians and translations of a couple of Chinese charts.

Why is it important to go beyond the physical manipulations and the martial arts we learn today?

Because to reach the understanding of a master, you must consider all factors to find the harmony. And even if you train eight hours a day, if your mind is not open to learn, clear to think, you will have learned nothing.

What I would like to know is why Andy and Chuck feel they have to dominate this Aikiweb forum? Oh, well.

I consider those who must complain, my friends. Only your friends bitch at you, whether you need it or not. Read this book and then you will know where you are pressing, rubbing or striking ... but knowing which type on which meridian, another story?

Check out this book, it is really good!

(and it ain't Dillman, that should put a smile on your faces.)
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Old 04-12-2002, 11:59 AM   #52
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Kyusho found elsewhere too

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Thanks again Andy and Chuck, I really like your comedy act....

Talking to you is kind of like pissing up a rope, isn't it? You continually prattle about US not paying attention, about US posting laughable comments, yet you continue to flog the same old dead horse, contine your arrogant, condescending ways.

Hapkido (Korean Aikido descened from Sokatu Takada /excuse me if my spelling is

I know nothing about Marc Tedeschi so I cannot comment, but Hapkido is not Korean aikido (it is a synthesis of Korean kick-punch arts and jujutsu-like techniques) and whether or not the originator of that art actually di more than attend a few Takeda seminars is in question.

off) a martial art that integrates both healing and combative techniques ....

Many do. Over the past year, I've been studying the Danzan Ryu restorative massage of the Kodenkan. Fascinating stuff. Judo also has some failry interesting restorative practices as do many serious budo systems. Off the top of my head, I can add Hakko Ryu Jujutsu and Shinshintoitsu (Ki Society) Aikido.

It's been said that the killer is also a healer; you need a knife in the kitchen as well as one in war.

What I would like to know is why Andy and Chuck feel they have to dominate this Aikiweb forum? Oh, well.

Because you continue to spread misinformation, be rude, cast aspersions, be condescending and trite, and, apparently try to 'dominate this Aikiweb forum' yourself. We're just making sure the field of play is level and that all opinions are heard and considered not just your limited one.

Chuck

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Old 04-12-2002, 01:25 PM   #53
Erik
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I am a year and so many months from cracking the half century mark in life, and I see a lack of common sense, lazy insensitive opinions based on consumerized techo geeks who get their information from other peoples reports instead of questioning, studying, and actually finding the facts for themselves.

I'm not in my 50's or even 40's but I'm well out of the 20's and frankly I've learned that I'm not terribly reliable. I question, challenge and change my beliefs all the time. I think you have to when you are honest with yourself. I fear the day I stop questioning. I submit to you that you should question more.

The field we are talking about though is not something you just pick up a book on and become an expert in. If I were to undertake the education required I'm guessing it would require a commitment of a decade (I'd have to work along the way to pay the many 1,000's of dollars). Then it would probably require more decades to run the studies to prove, assuming it's valid, even 5% of what you seem to take for granted. There is no way I can do research that is valid on that level, nor can any one person as part of science is being able to repeat a study. So, I rely on others who like that sort of thing to do the work and they see things differently than you do. In fact, differently than a lot of what's found in a book store.

As to dominating these boards, I'm probably, by far, the worst offender, certainly compared to Chuck and Andy. Too much free time on my hands. Yes, I'm a web developer in California.
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Old 04-13-2002, 05:38 AM   #54
Bruce Baker
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Kyusho end thoughts

Well, I have seen the gamut of opinions as to minor comments becoming issues. Which just goes to prove, the most offended are those subconcious of believing, or .... you wouldn't yell so loud if you were comfortable with being you.

That aside. My end thoughts are in wonderment how we forget the teachings of O'Sensei and jump upon our own personal band wagon?

I have spoken off line to a few sensei's I have met who have some experience with pressure points while practicing Aikido and the best comment was to the effect, "... aikido is an everchanging movement that adapts and harmonizes with movement. Adopting to learn another form within this movement is acceptable to the tenents of Aikido."

I won't go into who said that because the words were good enough to stand on their own for me, and this sensei has helped me with some exercises that have extended my practice by activating ... pressure points for health.

Here is the other quote I wanted to get in, not to step on Jun's ability to use quotes, which I think is great.

From: The Secrets of Aikido by John Stevens
Text under picture of O'Sensei doing (what looks like) modified Yonkyo

"Morihei maintained that "Aiki is Love," and that it is possible to handle aggression with a smile. The supreme challenge of a warrior is to turn an enemy's fearful wrath into harmless laughter."

If we can do that while reading these threads, we just might have a chance at spreading peace and Aikido throughout the world ... just an end thought.
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Old 04-13-2002, 08:54 AM   #55
guest1234
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Re: kyusho or aikido

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Points we already use for Ikkyo Thru Yonkyo

Heart #6/ Pinky side of hand/ One half inch from crease of wrist inner arm

How it works/ pressed into bone ocross oblique angle(looking at palm of hand) Press inward/down to bone. It bends the wrist
This works by appling stretch to the tendons of the wrist flexors, with a reflexive contraction flexing the wrist... you covercome it by RELAXING rather than tensing the arm muscles, which is often the natural reaction of uke. Funny, it seems we are always being told to relax.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker

Lung #8/ Thumb side of hand/ palm/inner side/one half inch below wrist. How it works/ Squeeze or rub towards hand.
It will make a fist open up.
The LU-8 I know is above the wrist one unit, not on the palm, so I'll try to explain that first: pressure on nerve stimulates contraction in finger extensors (and maybe the interosseous muscles...this detail of hand anatomy is out of the day to day for me, perhaps a hand ortho guy would like to help?)...overcome by relaxing the grip but keeping hand closed (I guess you'd say loosen grip) maybe think of extending hand (that seems to move the muscles the way I want as I sit here)

How you describe it, on the palm (the thenar eminence actually) it seems to be overcoming with overstretching the contraction of the thumb flexor but that would just loosen the thumb (an important thing, I admit, in those of us with opposable thumbs)

Quote:
Large Intestine #10/ Between the muscles forearm/slightly below crease in elbow How it works/ hit downward towards the bone to cramp the arm.
My favorite for arms like trees/first arm straightener I learned in Wally Jay jujitsu.

Triple Warmer #11/ on the back of the arm just below the elbow measuring from palm or above the elbow if you do it to yourself.
[/b]
LI-10 probably either/or/combo of rapid stretch of the biceps tendon with refelx contraction--relax to overcome-- or stimulation of the radial nerve--relax.

TW-11 --definately aiming for stimulation of the radial nerve---relax.

Bruce, these points all relay on unvarying anatomy--difficult, especially with the nerves, but sometimes even muscles and tendons refuse to follow the book. They rely on access to them (not the many references to clothing and jewelry that can interfere in just normal day to day dress). They are more useful to the accupuncturist, who has a calm, unmoving, appropriately undraped patient, or a demo uke in a similar condition.

An Iwama sandan I know -- with large hands that would literally wrap over one and a half times around my wrist, would take great joy in grabbing my wrist so tightly the hand would turn color and the fingers curl into a tight fist (he comes from a particularly gorrilla like dojo). Again, reflexive contraction due to tendon stretch. My first week in my first dojo, a large firefighter did the same thing to me during tai no henko, as my sensei watched. Sensei really stressed doing techniques with you hand in a certain position, and I hesitated since a curled fist was not it. Sensei barked out the command "Colleen, open your fingers" and I did...the only thing preventing it all the time was my belief that that kind of a grip MADE my hand stay in a fist. Instead of focusing on my stimulated finger flexors, I thought about using my finger extensors-- and my hand opened. I think this may be part of what the Ki Society is getting at in some of their things, but I come by that only via an offshoot, so I could be way off base.

Pressure points are interesting, but don't take everything you read or are told about them as gospel, and I don't rely on them at all. You are in essence not relying on some secret Oriental wisdom, but on the liklihood that uke's anatomy is uniform, and often that he is willing to be controlled either by belief or pain.
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Old 04-13-2002, 09:05 AM   #56
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Re: Death Touch

Quote:
Originally posted by thomson
Thought this would be interesting to add to this thread, I would love to hear CA's response to this article as it is supposedly based on medical evidence.

http://martialarts.about.com/library.../aa033102a.htm

Mike
I would really appreciate the chance to read ANYTHING written by a medical or scientific source on this, haven't found anything that I could access. Have tried this several times, for some reason it always is down.

Does anyone in any Eastern country know if they have the death penalty? If they did, I would think a sudden death technique would be employed rather than the barbaric methods of electricity/firing range/gas... even injection involves needles... touch would be much better. I guess since it is not used in any country, that must mean all Oriental countries forbid the death penalty.

As has been mentioned, it is impossible to test ones theory of death via touch without actually doing it.
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Old 04-13-2002, 09:20 AM   #57
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Interestingly, there has been a controlled scientific study just released that showed no difference between accupuncture results and placebo (I think it was just random sticking with needles, but I don't recall the control for sure), even in the areas traditional medicine feels accupunture may play a useful role, headache and chronic nerve/muscle/bone pain.

I don't completely buy this, however, because many times a study comes out, and results are later not reproducible, so I remain open (on the pain control issue) until further studies are done. Of course, western medicine feels one possible explanation of accupunture in pain control is belief of the patient that it will work, and that may account for placebo accupunture being as successful as actual accupuncture.
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Old 04-13-2002, 01:04 PM   #58
deepsoup
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Re: Death Touch

Quote:
Originally posted by ca

Does anyone in any Eastern country know if they have the death penalty? If they did, I would think a sudden death technique would be employed rather than the barbaric methods of electricity/firing range/gas... even injection involves needles... touch would be much better. I guess since it is not used in any country, that must mean all Oriental countries forbid the death penalty.
Hi Colleen,

I agree with your conclusion, but on this one I have to say I dont buy into your reasoning.

Whatever their (sick and twisted imho, but thats besides the point) rationale, a quick, clean, sudden death is not what the proponents of execution are looking for at all. Many people seem to like their executions to take an unecessarily cruel, humiliating and macabre form. They dont just want death for the condemned, they also want suffering, horror and humiliation. And an edifyingly macabre spectacle for the witnesses/audience seems to be a desirable by-product.

Dont take my word for it though, look at Texas.

Regards
Sean
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Old 04-13-2002, 01:22 PM   #59
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Hi Sean,

I agree that (unfortunately) some (many) who support capital punishment LIKE to see suffering in an execution. But there is usually enough opposition pressure to make a more humane version adopted (hence lethal injection). Also, folks like the cheap alternative, and what is more cheap than Dim Mak?

Mike,

I finally got that to open...sounds like the 'precordial thump' some may recall, in and out of favor in CPR over the years... relies on resetting or restarting the electrical impulses in the heart by a VERY precisely timed and placed blow. Only problem, as was mentioned a lot in the article, it requires timing that really only happens by chance. Think about all the times you have been thumped in the chest, or seen someone else. How many times did you or the other guy die? there were only a relative handful of cases to review, as in the big scheme of the world it happens very rarely. Massage of certain barorecptors might (MIGHT, recall my previous words on the use of this in ERs) slow the heart rate, but still won't guarantee the CORRECT timing of the blow. IF some folks died as a result of ventricular fib following a blow to the heart, I guess it would help build up a belief in this 'power' in the guillible. Like those who thought astronomers 'made' the sun disappear in an ecclipse. So if a person tried to deal a death blow millions upon millions of times, by pure chance they might get a result. They'd do better entering a lottery.

The article also stated that western medicine now has scientific support of acupuncture. Go to medpulse.com, search for 'acupuncture' and open any of the articles or abstracts that list a Cochrane analysis. This is a well respected group that uses pure statistics to evaluate large groups of studies. You will find that when cold, hard math is applied to the claims of acupuncture, it does not hold up. It did worse than conventional treatment, and the same or worse than 'sham' acupuncture for addiction treatment, some pain management, asthma, etc. It may very well be the belief of the patient in acupunture that makes it work.
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Old 04-13-2002, 02:48 PM   #60
deepsoup
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca

Also, folks like the cheap alternative, and what is more cheap than Dim Mak?
Its usually cheaper to get semi-skilled or unskilled labour to do a job with a machine than it is to get a master craftsman to do it by hand, wouldn't you say? Why pay someone a lot of money to do something elegantly when you could pay someone else much less money to do it crudely.

Even if Dim Mak were real (which, like you I seriously doubt), I dont think it would be routinely used as a mode of execution.

But I do agree that there should be some documented case of its use though, in the course of a crime, an assasination perhaps, or even a training accident or two at a Dim Mak dojo! (And there doesn't seem to be any such documentation.)

Sean
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Old 04-13-2002, 03:37 PM   #61
Bruce Baker
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I warned you ... you need a teacher

I warned you you would need a teacher, already I see confusion?

That is why I asked you all to find your own text, and seek a proper instruction ...

I open the box, now take the time to find the answers.

The two wrist points ... WRIST

Hold your hand up in front of you widdle face, and one half inch below the wrist. Does that clarify or are you creatively just picking whatever point that you find and become contrary like the fairy tale? Oh, well?

My purpose is not to explore the death touch, stop it, smack your head ... tell it to go away.

We are looking for humane ways to stop people from hurting us or others. To make the world and ourselves better?

Anyway, I am glad to see some interesting dialog for a change. Maybe we can raise the bar for Aikido as an intellectual as well as physical art?
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Old 04-13-2002, 04:37 PM   #62
guest1234
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Bruce,

Again, please stop taking everything so personally. It is not good for you, and I certainly hope you don't act that way on the mat or 'in the street'. If I were interested in picking on you, it would be happening in a different manner, and there would be no doubt in your mind.

Now, an interesting educational point. Usually in western medicine, we avoid the confusion in location on the body by refering to things as proximal (closer to the center of the body) or distal (further away), so the location of LU-8 as proximal to the wrist by 2 cm (on the ventral-lateral or ventral-radial side to be more specific).

I have only read six books on acupressure or acupuncture, and maybe a half dozen articles. I am more interested in and have a more extensive library in herbal medicine. The acupuncture/pressure books I've read however refer to 'above' and 'below' in reference to a standing man. This may not be how it is done in Japanese or Chinese, but a translation issue. But it was uniform throughout everything I've read. However, to be sure we weren't talking from two different reference points, I bothered to climb three flights of stairs to my library and pull down Tedeschi's book, since that is one I know we have in common (and is also luckily one that is at home rather than my office). It uses the 'above' and 'below' convention the others did. Which books do you have that do otherwise?

I asked if you were using a different location as --- not surprisingly --- location of acupuncture points is not uniform from practitioner to practitioner. One study of acupuncture in the treatment of asthma had problems when it showed that 'sham' acupuncture worked better than ture acupuncture, the acupuncturists complained that the 'sham' acupuncturists, just chosing random places to put needles, were hitting 'alternate' true sites that just weren't listed beofre in the study.

As for smacking our heads over the death touch (perhaps not exactly what most of us are thinking about smacking, but whatever), then are you saying you don't think that part of it is real?
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Old 04-13-2002, 04:51 PM   #63
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Oh, and Sean, I certainly agree with the big picture on capital punishment, but I think while it is unskilled to throw a switch (to electricity, to drop a pellet into acid, or to release high-dose potassium into the blood), there is one skilled act involved in only one of them-- starting that IV for the potassium in the first place (here Colleen smiles gratefully for all the nurses who've started IVs at midnight so she didn't have to roll out of bed to do so). Yet I think most states have gone to lethal injection (at I'd bet more $$) over the PR problems associated with gas and electricity.

You may not have the death penalty over there (or do you?) so you probably don't hear so much about it as we do in the states (I know it was an issue while I was in the NL, local authorities would refuse to turn jurisdiction over to the military for fear of capital punishment-- ah, that social conscience thing).
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Old 04-13-2002, 06:31 PM   #64
deepsoup
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capital punishment

Quote:
Originally posted by ca
Oh, and Sean, I certainly agree with the big picture on capital punishment..<snippage> Yet I think most states have gone to lethal injection (at I'd bet more $$) over the PR problems associated with gas and electricity.
Really I wasn't talking about capital punishment per-se so much as bickering about whether or not Dim-Mak (if indeed it really exists) would surface as a form of capital punishment. Its a moot point, I was only arguing it for fun!

I think I let my personal feelings about capital punishment colour my post somewhat, I really intended it to be more light-hearted than it probably came across.

As far as the costs of execution in the US goes, from what I've read about it the whole process of keeping someone on death-row for decades while countless legal proceedings grind on is so mind-bogglingly expensive that the cost of the execution itself is pretty much negligible anyway. (Its like trying to save money by serving cheaper nuts on the space-shuttle, if you see what I mean! )

Quote:
You may not have the death penalty over there (or do you?) so you probably don't hear so much about it as we do in the states
In practice we don't have the death penalty in the UK. (Theoretically, I think we do, for the crimes of high-treason and arson in a military shipyard. There's zero chance of it being applied though, British law is full of obscure old stuff thats still on the books just because noone has ever repealed it. )

The British media probably carry more stories about capital punishment in the US than you might expect though, most recently over the case of Tracy Housel, who had dual UK-USA nationality and was executed in Georgia just a few weeks ago.

Sean
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Old 04-13-2002, 06:41 PM   #65
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And then there was that nanny...

not to mention all the countries we've heard from (not that we shouldn't) over the detainees we're holding at Gitmo...

I wonder (besides countries undler Islamic rule) how many countries have capital punishment besides the US... any of the lawyers out there know?
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Old 04-13-2002, 08:43 PM   #66
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
The article also stated that western medicine now has scientific support of acupuncture. Go to medpulse.com, search for 'acupuncture' and open any of the articles or abstracts that list a Cochrane analysis. This is a well respected group that uses pure statistics to evaluate large groups of studies. You will find that when cold, hard math is applied to the claims of acupuncture, it does not hold up. It did worse than conventional treatment, and the same or worse than 'sham' acupuncture for addiction treatment, some pain management, asthma, etc. It may very well be the belief of the patient in acupunture that makes it work.
Colleen, a couple of thoughts here. One thing I've heard is that acupuncture can actually be more dangerous because the needles are not always carefully sterilized. That cleanliness thing again.

I'm also not sure I would have used the word belief but rather to be more explicit, it's not understanding what working actually means. That little step of understanding statistics, even in my minor way, went a long, long way for me.

Finally, don't some acupuncture manuals have the internal organs all mucked up? So, they can figure out invisible chi energy but couldn't get the tangible parts of the body right?
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Old 04-13-2002, 09:18 PM   #67
guest1234
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Opps...

the web site was actually a medline search on medscape:
http://www.medscape.com/px/mscpsearc...chfor=Clinical

sorry if anyone spent time looking in the wrong place...
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Old 04-14-2002, 03:55 AM   #68
deepsoup
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The Death Penalty

Quote:
Originally posted by ca

I wonder (besides countries undler Islamic rule) how many countries have capital punishment besides the US... any of the lawyers out there know?
Theres some information about that on Amnesty International's website.

74 countries have no death penalty at all.

15 countries have it for exceptional circumstances only. (Crimes under military law etc.)

22 countries have the death penalty in theory, but have not executed anyone in the last ten years.

That leaves 84 countries that retain the death penalty and use it: "AFGHANISTAN, ALGERIA, ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA, ARMENIA, BAHAMAS, BAHRAIN, BANGLADESH, BARBADOS, BELARUS, BELIZE, BENIN, BOTSWANA, BURUNDI, CAMEROON, CHAD, CHINA, COMOROS, CONGO (Democratic Republic), CUBA, DOMINICA, EGYPT, EQUATORIAL GUINEA, ERITREA, ETHIOPIA, GABON, GHANA, GUATEMALA, GUINEA, GUYANA, INDIA, INDONESIA, IRAN, IRAQ, JAMAICA, JAPAN, JORDAN, KAZAKSTAN, KENYA, KOREA (North), KOREA (South), KUWAIT, KYRGYZSTAN, LAOS, LEBANON, LESOTHO, LIBERIA, LIBYA, MALAWI, MALAYSIA, MAURITANIA, MONGOLIA, MOROCCO, MYANMAR, NIGERIA, OMAN, PAKISTAN, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, PHILIPPINES, QATAR, RWANDA, SAINT CHRISTOPHER & NEVIS, SAINT LUCIA, SAINT VINCENT & GRENADINES, SAUDI ARABIA, SIERRA LEONE, SINGAPORE, SOMALIA, SUDAN, SWAZILAND, SYRIA, TAIWAN, TAJIKISTAN, TANZANIA, THAILAND, TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO, TUNISIA, UGANDA, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, UZBEKISTAN, VIET NAM, YEMEN, ZAMBIA, ZIMBABWE

I've well and truly wandered off-topic now, haven't I?

Sean
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Old 04-14-2002, 06:13 AM   #69
guest1234
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Thanks!

You didn't wander off topic, I dragged you ... guess I was getting bored with the current one... bad, Colleen, bad bad

thanks again
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Old 04-18-2002, 05:38 AM   #70
Bruce Baker
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Three points, on one meridian

I will no longer answer any questions or personal responses.

The point of this was to make you aware that when you create pain with a joint lock, wrist twist, remove someones hand by grabbing under a wrist ... you are near two pressure points.

It take three to take away someones physical power, or in some cases, knock them out.

If you study what pressure points are causing pain ... on what meridian they are on ... you then have a choice of learning the third point that will cause a knockout.

Physical anatomy of different people may or may not have access to all pressure points, or some physiology of certain people, asian/black/european/ women/men, do not have certain points in their body or they respond slightly different. Within general proven points we use in Aikido, there is over a 90% proven effectiveness in the pain submissions used.

Use them. They work.

Look for the third point on a meridian.

Does this mean there is more to Aikido than some teachers teach today?

I hope so. O'Sensei took all he could from where ever he could learn, and this is the legacy of ten thousand years of fighting arts in our Aikido.

For those that get it, I will see you down the road.

For those that do not, goodbye.
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Old 04-18-2002, 08:43 PM   #71
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Kyusho ...

Quote:
Anything posted by Bruce Baker
bla, bla, bla, aikido and aikidoka suck, pressure points rule, bla, bla, turtles, bla, bla
Hello. Bruce Baker is a troll. He is the worst sort of troll, in that he is not coherent/intelligent/aware enough to know he is trolling.

Any reply, even and ESPECIALLY negative is reinforcement. I repeat what I said on the list so many times, IF YOU DON'T WANT THE DOG TO BEG AT THE TABLE, DON'T FEED IT THERE.

I'm sorry I had to spell it out for everyone.
Now, please talk about something interesting.

thank you,

mle

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Old 04-20-2002, 01:21 PM   #72
Bruce Baker
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Pressure points of fighters

There are no pressure points.

Nah.... Yes there are.

Fighters know the knockout points of the jaw and chin, and the regularly knock each other out.

Magic?

Not really.

You can find the angle direction, meridian on most pressure point charts.

Arterys in the leg or neck being hit causing numbness, blackout or ... was it the pressure points on the meridian next to the artery?

Doesn't matter, does it? You got a result.

Do Nikkyo, then touch a pressure point on the same meridian ... oops? ... knocked out my partner! What do I do now?

DON'T ASK ME!

There ain't no such thing as pressure points in Aikido.

But then, we already have them in Aikido don't we, but then we don't have Bruce's pressure points?

Now that Bruce has pressure points, when is Bruce gonna get the nickels, dimes, and quarters for them? Send them to Jun, I think he deserves them more for the nonsense in these threads.

Never mind, you can get your library to order books within the preassure point system to study them on your own, then you can be the butt of ignorance too.

Thanks guys and girls. It's so nice to be loved.

Please come visit LBI. I am sure you will NOT be taught pressure points, as it is my own study outside of class, but then again, when Sensei cranks you into moving this way or that ... you can say you already knew about them pain points, can't you?

That's enough comedy ... then again ...

I feel like I am watching the Transcendental meditation people who think they are floating in the air when they merely bouncing up and down, it makes me laugh so hard my ribs hurt.

Same thing with the negative posts about pressure points.

They don't work until they knock you out.

Be my guest. Contact some of the guys who do it and tell them to try to knock you out with touch?

Then bring back what you find to Aikido.

I might have stopped laughing by then.

New thread, this ones dead.
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Old 04-21-2002, 02:25 AM   #73
Jim ashby
Dojo: Phoenix Coventry
Location: Coventry, England
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 303
Offline
Knockout point on the jaw?

How the hell can a boxer hit a pressure pont on the jaw with a boxing glove with a frontal area of (in my case with 16oz gloves)over 18 square inches? The way a boxer knocks someone out is generally by accellerating their skull very quickly. The brain,which is much softer and is only attached at the lower rear end (Colleen would know the medical term) hits the skull and, hey presto, goodnight vienna. No pressure points involved.

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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Old 04-21-2002, 11:43 AM   #74
Kenn
Dojo: looking for a new one
Location: Simi Valley California
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 72
United_States
Offline
LMFAO,

Bruce, you truly aren't the sharpest tac in the box, are you. You keep threatening to leave this forum, so please......don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out...........I will for one miss your posts, everyday for the last few weeks I have looked forward to your humorous rantings.

of course, that's my opinion, you are entitled to yours no matter how wrong you may be.

Peace, Kenn

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
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Old 04-23-2002, 06:07 AM   #75
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
Offline
reply to Jame Ashby

If you ask any of the good old timers who have done knockouts in the boxing ring, they will show you the angle and direction of a strike and within the size of quarter where to hit. (even though PP's are the size of a clicker on a ball point pen.)

Back around 1982, we had a old timer boxer who retired to LBI. Kids would get in his face and push him around, until he clipped them and down to the floor they went while he drank his beer. At least three times each summer this would happen at the Hudson House, hole in the wall bar for locals.

I asked him how he did it, and he showed me two points on the jaw line with angle and direction to cause a knockout.

The angle/direction are very important, and make the difference. Even with boxing gloves or heavy clothes, it only changes slightly in using a deeper penetration, but the results are the same.

If you have a good trainer who has seen numerous knockouts, and understands angle and direction, you can find what they tell you in most pressure point manuals, accupoint charts, and striking charts for karate.

What you have to figure out is ... angle, and direction to use these striking points on the chart?

I could go on and on about the magic knockouts of different boxing matches and find the points hit with angle/direction on pressure point books, but then some people in this forum wouldn't understand it also relates to correctly using angle/ direction for Aikido techniques also? Let alone learning to intercept strikes correctly aimed at specific points when practicing Aikido.

Ask about.

There are many proven boxing strikes that relate to strikes in MA and Aikido.
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