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Old 04-10-2002, 12:13 AM   #26
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by Largo
They have nobel prizes for this? Really? I'm guessing it isn't the peace prize
Peace prizes ain't worth much anyway. Check out who won it in 1994:

Yasser Arafat
Shimon Peres
Yitzhak Rabin
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Old 04-10-2002, 07:52 AM   #27
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Chuck Gordon ...

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Chuck Gordon, and Chuck Clark also.
Email me your address, and from my own pocket I will send you a tape, and a book no charge.
My treat.
Bruce,

Please accept my thanks for your kind offer. And I do mean that most sincerely.

I must, however, decline the gift. As I've stated before, I've explored this avenue (kyusho-jutsu, etc) and have found it lacking.

We're obviously not going to change each other's opinion.

Chuck

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Old 04-10-2002, 04:48 PM   #28
Bruce Baker
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Thanks Sensei Ledyard

Thanks for putting into words what I could not.

I merely wish others to find the deeper depth of Aikido that what we think it is.

Aikido will whither and die if not practiced and shared, so why not accept the sharing of others to help us understand Aikido?
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Old 04-10-2002, 07:48 PM   #29
Largo
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Pepsi challenge

I'm actually kinda curious about all this now. I'd look into this if there was an english bookstore anywhere around...
Tell you what, if you're still interested in mailing stuff out, send it my way. I'd like to get my sensei and sempais' opinions on this.

Largo
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Old 04-10-2002, 09:24 PM   #30
Reuben
 
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I don't know what it is, but I just think I detected lots of 'I know it all' attitude.

I don't think it is wrong to try and improve Aikido and to be static is to be defeated. Bruce does have a good point if only it offended people who think Aikido is perfect as it is. Even if I don't completely agree with his point of view, and although his phrasing may be a bit bad(karate ppl beating up aikidoka) ouch sensitive...his point is relevant and should be considered seriously.

Okie ppl, you say Aikido has pressure points and yes I agree we do but who can name me a few?

Right first one that comes to mind is definitely yonkyo.
And then there's a pressure point on the leg(my sensei pressed that when he caught my kick and i just fell but i don't know any conventional techniques like it)

So is atemi to the face considered striking a pressure point?

Enlighten me and don't tell me something like oh i'm so sorry that your sensei does not include that...my sensei does blah blah blah.

Has Aikiweb degenerated into a my sensei is better than urs and my technique is better than urs debate?

Or has it been always like this. I have seen enough to know that it is like this...a lot of the time. I think some of you are missing the entire point of this forums. There's no need to be patronising and overly sarcastic.
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Old 04-10-2002, 09:38 PM   #31
Brian Crowley
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I found this thread informative:

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/show...threadid=10004

Regards,
Brian
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Old 04-10-2002, 10:31 PM   #32
guest1234
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Reuben,

You missed all the many, extended earlier threads, where people went into more detail in this discussion other than the short versions of why we don't believe in this one. But to summarize for me:

1. If folks want to pay good money for this stuff, that is their decision. But don't say this magical thinking has a 'proven' scientific basis, or that 'it always works' because neither statement is true.
--pressure points work because of the pain they cause, or from stimulation of nerves resulting in a slowing of the heart rate or lowering of blood pressure or both.
--pain compliance only works if you can always get the nerve (you cannot, anatomy is too variable, I know first hand), the person's pain threshold is exceeded (easily overcome by drug use or a willingness to tolerate pain to achieve a goal, or by a natural or trained higher pain threshold)
--some knockouts occur when a person's reaction to pain or the threat of it causes a vasovagal reaction (think fainting at the dentist's office)
--some occur with stimulation of the vagal nerve (the HARD solar plexus strike) affect heart rate/BP, or it could be the reaction to the pain that causes (see above)
--some occur from prolonged (PROLONGED) massage of the receptors in the carotid sinus
--those that require this type of stimulation again vary in success due to anatomy, and the uke needs to stand still for some time while you do it

Lets see, where have I seen pressure points tried on me? For this I am not counting the kyu students, just the sandans through rokyudans who get interested once they realize I don't feel pain with yonkyo... one in front of the ear, my guess is they were trying for the trigeminal, on on top of the head and off the midline (probably trying for a feedback loop into a vagal response), side of my neck (see my longer post elsewhere on carotid massage), of course the radial (yonkyo), ulnar (ikkyo pin), side of the leg (peroneal), top of the foot (no clue)...

I believe a hard blow to the brachial plexus (armpit) as is taught but not done would be effective for at least temporarily interfering with the arm if not fairly incapacitating pain-- I'm not interested in finding this out as it might cause permanent damage to the brachial plexus through the streching of the nerve. But it needs to be an effective hard punch, the effect is from stretching/tearing the nerve bundle, or at least causing swelling around it.

I've also not tried getting punch full force in the solar plexus, for similar could-cause damage reasons, not so much to the nerves (the worse thing would be stimulation of my vagal nerve resulting in a temporary pulse/BP change, and I think it would be unlikely to happen) but because of fear of rupture of stomach, intestines, diaphragm, or with misplaced blow, lacerated liver, spleen, lung... curiosity is not worth the risk.
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Old 04-10-2002, 11:00 PM   #33
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OK, and now for my beliefs on how this relates to Aikido:

Pressure points are interesting to learn, but I don't see how they relate to taking center, or blending...perhaps a role in balance taking, but I'd say a poor one: uke might not feel pain, and even if he does, he may move in a way you don't mean him to in order to get away from it.

In my very limited experience, causing pain will make uke fight more (to try to get away from the pain source); I'm aiming myself for more of a gently cradled/enveloped feel,,,I want them calmed, not aggitated.

Not saying they aren't interesting to try, but that they aren't, in my opinion, very related to the central aspects of Aikido.

Further, to me saying Aikido is lacking without incorporating Dillman's methods is incorrect, just like saying Aikido is lacking without teaching how to break boards or do flying kicks or archery is incorrect. Those are just something else other than Aikido, gaining skill in them may or may not help you if you are interested in Aikido as a fighting method.

I do think Aikido needs to continuously grow, but I'd say in areas that are core to Aikido, not just by tacking on something else that is unrelated.
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Old 04-10-2002, 11:29 PM   #34
Erik
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Colleen, thank you for bring some science into the discussion. I lack the specific background although I have a pretty good BS detector (learned the hard way).

Rueben, I agree that I was a bit sarcastic (particularly the Dove Tickling Bit) but you have no idea how many times I've seen what is effectively the same story. Go hang out in the self-help, diet (even in the exercise) or new age sections of a book store to see what I mean. It's rampant and I've certainly bought into my share of it too.

Fortunately, because I freely admit that "I don't know it all" and welcome challenges to my ideas (you'll get a vigorous response though) I've rethought most of that nonsense.

Lastly, the best thing about these forums is that ideas get presented and rebutted. It's a lot like my ukemi. Attack (in the physical sense, although Bruce got me pretty worked up) someone vigorously and see what happens. Sometimes I get up really slowly and sometimes nothing happens at all. Either way I've learned something and it's a more honest approach than a lot of people use. I've had more than a few opinions changed out here. It's why I like this place so much.

Last edited by Erik : 04-10-2002 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 04-11-2002, 12:11 AM   #35
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Hi Colleen;

Nice summery. A small comment if I may is that Aikido is not just about taking center, blending or balance breaking. They play a role surely but Aikido as Budo is not limited to these concepts.

Directed atemi and the use of other pressure points do exist in Aikido - I guess like much of the Aikido we do it is learned as we go. Last Saturday as preparation for my next promotion I was practicing a tanto dori which finishes with a brutal judo chop to the base of uke's skull (all in tachi). Kime to the forearm (yonkyo) and ankle, pretty common, that wonderful little nerve bundle behind the ear, not to mention the point at the base of the thumb. I could refer to many more and of course nikkyo and sankyo can deliver serious pain and therefore could be said to work on pressure points.

However, because of the limitations which you so aptly summerized Aikido, and I suspect most martial arts that have progressed beyond the gee-whizz stage, do not rely on these points to get the job done. They may help, they don't hinder but no way are they worth relying on.





Quote:
Originally posted by ca
Pressure points are interesting to learn, but I don't see how they relate to taking center, or blending...perhaps a role in balance taking, but I'd say a poor one: uke might not feel pain, and even if he does, he may move in a way you don't mean him to in order to get away from it.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-11-2002, 12:52 AM   #36
MaylandL
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Pressure points have been taught in aikido but it has never been the focus of aikido at the dojo that I train at. The main theme in the training at the dojos where i frequent has been balance/posture, movement/blending and technique. Both my senseis (and I would agree with them) have said that these need to work effortlessly together for aikido to work powerfully. Aikido does not have to be painful for it to work. I've been at the receiving end of a very powerful yonkyo without so much as a painful wrist. At the same token, I've been on the receiving end of a yonkyo that felt that my wrist was about to snap.

By all means teach pressure points as part of technique but with all technique be aware of its advantages and limitations. There are other aspects of aikido that are as important.

Master Dillman seems to have thoroughly researched and applied his knowledge of pressure points and by all accounts seems to be effective for him. My personal preference and past experience is not to rely on them as I've had varying and inconsistent success with them. Others may have had better results with them and my congratulations to them.

My study of aikido has been to reduce the reliance on pain as a primary or major determinant of aikido techniques. My limited experience with pressure points has been that they can generate considerable pain or result in unexpected reactions from experienced and unexperienced ukes

I guess there's much that can be learned from using pressure points and researching that further and applying it. My training may not be complete without having explored pressure points, but right now, its going to take me a lifetime just to make sense out of understanding and practicing harmonising balance/posture, movement/blending and technique and putting it all together with ki.

Bruce, please dont misunderstand. I do not have anything against pressure points. I have had limited experience and success with them. IMHO, aikido techniques can be done with or without pressure points. Keep training in aikido and I sincerely hope you can find some success in the use of pressure points. All the best.

Mayland
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Old 04-11-2002, 02:32 AM   #37
Erik
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Decided to do some Google research. The site is kind of a mixed bag of stuff to my mind but I thought the article offered an interesting perspective and explanation. Warning, it's disjointed and you'll have to scroll past blank spaces.

http://www.taichiworld.net/Articles/george.htm
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Old 04-11-2002, 05:08 AM   #38
Jorx
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Confused

Hello...

That article sure was interesting. I advise anyone to read it and I would like Mr. Baker's comment on that article. It gave a whole new perspective to the thread.

Anyway... according to my information there are no pressure point masters in my country. So rather far from me this thread is

However... the most pressure point thing I've learned during my couple of years (if you don't count nukite striking to the ribs and some other parts of the body) is yonkyo. And I've really seen some practioners on who the standard point (middle backside of forearm) doesn't work (and my sensei says that as well).And these ppl have been muscular. On the other hand muscular ppl tend to be less flexible in general so easier to do joint manipulations... Taking the balance however works on everyone...

And regarding Dillmann's methods... HOW on earth do you knock someones pressure point when he is wearing winter clothing??? You can't hit someone on the carotine sinus when he is wearing a thick scarf. You can't poke someone in the ribs when he is wearing a featherstuffed jacket. And that already IMHO makes those techniques unreliable enough to not to put emphasis on them.

Yonkyo however works even if it doesn't hurt when done properly. (for example on someone wearing thick gloves...)

Jorgen
Riveta Sportsclub
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Old 04-11-2002, 07:05 AM   #39
Abasan
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How the heck do we practice pressure points anyway? Hit them? Really?

- Peter... did you actually hit those nerves while practising for your upcoming promotion? -

I wouldn't want my nerves to be hit, in practice or not... it might damage my body beyond repair. But as I understand it, the accuracy, pressure and angles involved in applying pressure point techniques require constant practice. Its like learning the deathtouch. Who would want to volunteer as uke for that? "opps, there goes another one to the morque... next uke pls"

Next question.
Quote:
I've been at the receiving end of a very powerful yonkyo without so much as a painful wrist. At the same token, I've been on the receiving end of a yonkyo that felt that my wrist was about to snap.
What does yonkyo have to do with the wrist? I thought we're manipulating the whole forearm and elbow thingey via the pressure point on the erm... radial thingey.

The Clueless one.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 04-11-2002, 07:05 AM   #40
Bruce Baker
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kyusho or aikido

Points we already use for Ikkyo Thru Yonkyo

Heart #6/ Pinky side of hand/ One half inch from crease of wrist inner arm

How it works/ pressed into bone ocross oblique angle(looking at palm of hand) Press inward/down to bone. It bends the wrist

Lung #8/ Thumb side of hand/ palm/inner side/one half inch below wrist.

How it works/ Squeeze or rub towards hand.
It will make a fist open up.

My favorite to disable weapons

Large Intestine #10/ Between the muscles forearm/slightly below crease in elbow

How it works/ hit downward towards the bone to cramp the arm.

My favorite for arms like trees/first arm straightener I learned in Wally Jay jujitsu.

Triple Warmer #11/ on the back of the arm just below the elbow measuring from palm or above the elbow if you do it to yourself.

How it works/ Rub up and down to straighten arm.

There are some extremly common openings for stiff, muscular, or stubborn ukes who resist common techniques. All you need to do is feel these upon your own body, find the appropriate pain angle, and Voila' ... now you can do what your teacher does when them stubborn people say Aikido doesn't work.

Yeah, there are pressure points in Aikido. We should teach them, getting more complex as we progress.

Should we get into healing next?
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Old 04-11-2002, 07:19 AM   #41
Bruce Baker
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kyusho /healing

Healing / should you numb your arm?

Smack it! Yeah Smack it and RUB-Rub-rub in a circular motion.

It is not recommended to use pressure points for more than one class, give them time to recover for a couple of days to two weeks depending upon the amount of irritation you may feel sick within the meridian you are activating.

At this point in time, that is the only warning I have been given, but if you have illnesses, DO NOT let people do pressure points on you.

Like most new things, we are still trying to understand what longterm damage may occur, but that might only be possible with a longterm clinical study of people doing Martial Arts compared to people who do not?

I have health concerns that keep me aware of certain techniques that make me sick because of these illnesses, so I sit out certain portions of the class because of this ... I wish I had known about this years ago, I would have been able to avoid some of the damage I have today simply by knowing what meridian was creating pain, and being overused in day after day of practice?

No matter. Smack it, Rub it.

There will be no black and blue, and pain will be temporary unlike muscle/tendon damage.

Of course you will have to practice your Aikido to get there, but getting there is half the fun, isn't it?
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Old 04-11-2002, 10:24 AM   #42
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Disgust Death Touch

Thought this would be interesting to add to this thread, I would love to hear CA's response to this article as it is supposedly based on medical evidence.

http://martialarts.about.com/library.../aa033102a.htm

Mike

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. - Sun Tzu
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Old 04-11-2002, 11:13 AM   #43
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by thomson
[b]Thought this would be interesting to add to this thread, I would love to hear CA's response to this article as it is supposedly based on medical evidence.

http://martialarts.about.com/library.../aa033102a.htm
Mike, thanks for posting that. I'd been looking for something on it but didn't know the name to research it. I first heard about it on the Dean Edell show.
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Old 04-11-2002, 11:17 AM   #44
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abasan
What does yonkyo have to do with the wrist? I thought we're manipulating the whole forearm and elbow thingey via the pressure point on the erm... radial thingey.
Certain folks (I've seen it specifically in one of the local Iwama dojos) do yonkyo with both the wrist and the forearm. One hand goes to the back of the hand, which bends the wrist, and the other to the forearm. People are very responsive to the leverage applied to the wrist.

Last edited by Erik : 04-11-2002 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 04-11-2002, 01:04 PM   #45
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Need to say one more thing, then I'll get out of here, off the soap box and feel much mellower (at least for me). One of the things that radically changed my perception of the world was a better understanding of statistics. This will be old hat for some, but I'm amazed at how many people get fooled by this. It took me a long time to get it which is probably why I get so worked up about it. We hate our own failings.

A friend of mine was called by a sports betting service. They told him that he should go with team X and team Y during the coming weekend. Naturally, they won and he was very impressed and didn't buy into my explanation. First, they could have called hundreds of people, told them the other 3 combinations, and only called back the one's they got right. Or, since there's a 25% chance of getting it right, they could have just let random chance play into it. It's even possible that the service believed in their product and just didn't understand what they were really doing. Statistical runs are normal and so higher than normal success is to be expected for some when random chance is involved. This is incredibily common in the financial world where the bad use of statistic's is rampant. For what it's worth, my degree is in Finance.

Now, a very hypothetical situation. Suppose you are bitten by a snake. You run (forgetting that running is a bad idea) down to the local shaman. The shaman tosses monkey's in the air, shouts in Swahili and miraculously you live. Very impressive. You read up on it and discover that shamanism cures 90% of all snake bites but that Western medicine only cures 75% of poisonous snake bites. Of course, if you were to discover that 90% of snake bites are non-poisonous the shaman would look much less impressive. This means that Western medicine cures 97.5% of all bites when measured in shaman terms and is the only chance you have of surviving a poisonous and fatal bite in this example. It is side-effect free though, which makes sense because it doesn't do anything.

I don't think there's any doubt that Mr. Dillman is an accomplished martial artist (his resume shows that), nor that there are certain nerve points, nor that he knocks people out. He also appears to be a decent guy from what I've heard. What is terribly important is why he knocks people out and that can make all the difference not only in the knock out but in all the rest of the package.

Last edited by Erik : 04-11-2002 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 04-11-2002, 07:26 PM   #46
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abasan
How the heck do we practice pressure points anyway? Hit them? Really?

- Peter... did you actually hit those nerves while practising for your upcoming promotion? -

I wouldn't want my nerves to be hit, in practice or not... it might damage my body beyond repair. But as I understand it, the accuracy, pressure and angles involved in applying pressure point techniques require constant practice.
Hi;

Well yes and no. You are supposed to come as close as you can with speed and control even to the point of a light touch but not to cause pain or injury. That said on two different occaisions, once doing and once done, uke was dropped. In neither case was it full force and although we both went down like a rock we did not go unconcious. After the required round of appologies we realized what a full force strike has the potential of doing.

I agree with your statement about not wanting to take the hits as part of regular practice although in some cases, not the above, I would not mind trying the effect on a one time basis. I might even take one of Dillmann's seminars but I've seen a lot and I doubt I would walk away with much.


Quote:
What does yonkyo have to do with the wrist? I thought we're manipulating the whole forearm and elbow thingey via the pressure point on the erm... radial thingey.
Erik answered this already. We don't use Aikikai terminology but what you would call yonkyo would involve control of wrist and elbow while applying kime to the radial nerves. Kime alone in not yonkyo.

By the way welcome to the forums.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-12-2002, 06:02 AM   #47
Bruce Baker
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Arm chair opinions?

Thank you, some of you for your arm chair opinions, they really make me laugh ... with the pains of illness I have, I need a good laugh in the morning.

It is also why I don't watch them talk shows and I take what is reported in the news with grain of salt ... reports that contradict each other within months because of ratings?

Some of you asked for proof, I give you simple points that we use in Aikido.

Those little points on your body that cause pain are not magic, but scientific transmitters within your body. You need Aikido to get there, but then what? Learn to slam people into the ground and objects so their bones break, or internal injury?

I love the gentleness of Aikido with the option to go farther even with advanced training.

Our lives are focused on consumer societys ... get a job, make more money, say one thing and do another for business sake ... is that our mentality for Martial Arts, or Aikido also? Are we shopping for marketed products with a better label and the best guarantee without looking at the ingredients within the product and understanding the actual function of the product?

I am a year and so many months from cracking the half century mark in life, and I see a lack of common sense, lazy insensitive opinions based on consumerized techo geeks who get their information from other peoples reports instead of questioning, studying, and actually finding the facts for themselves.

Out of ten posts in a thread, one voice of reason responds, hence patience with others and having seven skins thick to continue to have a dialog becomes worthwhile for the one.

Maybe I have been uke too long for sensei, feeling the things I speak of ... which I have been prompted to explore and find answers for.
Eventually, your perception to the movements in Aikido will become slower and you too will ask,"What was that pain that made me move?"

When you find out, then this thread will be worth the words we write today.
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Old 04-12-2002, 06:55 AM   #48
erikmenzel
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My nephew always goes around asking everybody the same question again and again. He just wont stop.

Finally, when everybody has given an answer he does not like he starts to wine and nag and becomes mad, claiming nobody takes him seriously and everybody is ignoring him and he is not getting the attention and recognision he thinks he deserves.

But then again, my nephew is only 4.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 04-12-2002, 08:05 AM   #49
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Re: Arm chair opinions?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Thank you, some of you for your arm chair opinions, they really make me laugh ... with the pains of illness I have, I need a good laugh in the morning.

Bruce, that sounds awfully condescending. Are you saying that folks here are not to be taken seriously and are only deserving of your laughter?

It is also why I don't watch them talk shows and I take what is reported in the news with grain of salt ... reports that contradict each other within months because of ratings?

But you've bought wholeheartedly into a line of thought that is considered to be, by many well-respected martial artists and medical folks, at best, limited in scope and unreliable, and at worst, willful deception. Hmm.

Those little points on your body that cause pain are not magic, but scientific transmitters within your body.

Sort of. Not like you want them to be, however. And no, it's not magic. There is not magic three-point knockout touch. You can whack the hell out of someone and make them see starts, you can use techniques of suggestibility and make a willing student THINK he's been KO'd, or you can outright fake it. You can create false histories and market them as truth and people will buy it. Worse yet, you can embellish a little truth and make it seem ever so much more romantic and mysterious ...

And that's exactly what has happened in SO much of the popularized martial arts these days.

You need Aikido to get there, but then what? Learn to slam people into the ground and objects so their bones break, or internal injury?

Among other things, yes. I've been pounded into the mat by high-ranking aikido folks, hard enough to see bright flashes and wonder why the birds are singing, and I've been lofted and set down so gently, I had no clue what was happening till I was looking up at George Simcox' grinning face. I've felt nikkyo so soft and effortlessly applied that the only thing I knew wa that I couldn't move, and I've had it set into place so that my arm tingled for an hour afterward.

It's a spectrum, a continuum. And if more aikido folks would get together and work out the transitions and examine the ends of that spectrum, there'd be no need for anyone to advocate adding anything to the art. It's all there, already. It's just fragmented by politics, personality and prejudice.

And, for the record, I don't 'do' aikido myself. I do, however, have several dear friends who study and teach aikido, and I train with them whenever possible. Those folks range from no-kyu to rokudan, from the very hard to the very soft, from their 20s to their 60s ... and I learn from each of them every time I get on the mat with 'em.

I also train with both classical and neo-jujutsu as well as with judo and karate folks and I spend a lot of time studying the Japanese sword and stick arts. Ken is my first love and is the core and root of all my budo studies.

If I were younger, had more time, and had access to someone like Nishio or the late Shirata Rinjiro or a few of their contemporaries, I'd probably spend lots more time doing aikido, because those folks are going to be gone soon.

For now, I'm already chasing too many rabbits, but have always been and will continue to be fond of aikido and love training with good aikido folks.

That being said, back to the matter at hand:

Our lives are focused on consumer societys ...

Odd that you should say that, since you're main focus seems to be a system that is apparently based primarily on marketing.

get a job, make more money, say one thing and do another for business sake ... is that our mentality for Martial Arts, or Aikido also?

Sigh. Now, are you calling us liars? Are you calling me a liar? Speak your mind plainly, Bruce, please.

I am a year and so many months from cracking the half century mark in life, and I see a lack of common sense, lazy insensitive opinions based on consumerized techo geeks who get their information from other peoples reports instead of questioning, studying, and actually finding the facts for themselves.

Again, who are you talking about? If you have something to say, please say it. Don't use innuendo.

If you're poking those comments at me, for one, I've never been anything but up front and straightforward with you or anyone else I deal with on the mat. I conduct myself in the dojo, online and in business the same way.

I don't like innuendo and veiled slights. If you've got a name to call or a gripe to air with an individual, put it out on the table so we can see it plainly.

Out of ten posts in a thread, one voice of reason responds, hence patience with others and having seven skins thick to continue to have a dialog becomes worthwhile for the one.

So, we're to define (by your standards) the voice of reason as someone who agrees with you point of view? All the rest of us are just blowing smoke? If you think so, say so.

Eventually, your perception to the movements in Aikido will become slower and you too will ask,"What was that pain that made me move?"

So ... you have how many years training in aikido?

Chuck

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Old 04-12-2002, 09:39 AM   #50
Andy
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 96
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Re: Arm chair opinions?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Thank you, some of you for your arm chair opinions, they really make me laugh ...
So how many hours a week are you on the mat training as opposed to how many hours you're watching videos, reading books, and surfing the Internet?

What was it I wrote before? Oh yes: Pot. Kettle. Black.
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