Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-20-2009, 09:03 PM   #1
Brian Gillaspie
 
Brian Gillaspie's Avatar
Dojo: School of Martial and Meditative Arts
Location: Topeka, KS
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 72
United_States
Offline
Ground Defense

I'm just curious how many dojos train for defending yourself when you are on the ground. If you do, how often do you train.

I know in a perfect world you should never end up on the ground but I know I am not always perfect....my wife reminds me of that quite often.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 09:33 PM   #2
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Stuttgart, Baden Wurttemberg
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Germany
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

None in my AIkido dojo...but I am a BJJ guy so spend alot of time on the ground. I do run classes from time to time on ground fighting in our AIkido Dojo for those that are interested.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2009, 10:15 PM   #3
swalsh
Dojo: Watanabe dojo/Australia
Location: Perth
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 9
Australia
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

All the time, it's called suwari waza and ukemi

Suwari waza shows us how to generate power with limited mobility as you would be on the ground and ukemi teaches us how to get back to our feet quickly so we can maneouvre again.

Regards,

Stu
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 12:05 AM   #4
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

I'm pretty sure Brian wasn't referring to suwari waza and ukemi.

We do explore ground fighting in our dojo, but not very regularly anymore. I think it is worthwhile to pick up at least rudimentary ground skills.

Whether you decide to cross-train with ground fighting, something that I think is worth contemplating, is why aikido's ground work is limited and looks the way it does.

When weapons are involved and you have multiple opponents, you have almost surely lost if you go to the ground and get locked up with one person for any length of time.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 12:44 AM   #5
swalsh
Dojo: Watanabe dojo/Australia
Location: Perth
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 9
Australia
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

Agreed, but I think to many people discount the value of suwari waza and ukemi in this area. Common principles of all types of armed or unarmed conflict are the application of power and the ability to manoeuvre that power to it's most effective location. Being on the ground immediately impacts your ability to manoeuvre and apply your power.

Some of the lessons of ukemi are how to get back to your feet quickly and how to protect your centre while getting back to your feet. That helps fix the manoeuvre issue.

When trying to apply power on the ground, when not in the standing position, it is difficult to make effective use of hip rotation, dropping of your centre, extension, irimi etc. In the standing position, we can "fudge" those things by stepping further out or turning more, suwari waza does not let you get away with those things. So this helps with your ability to apply power with limited ability to manoeuvre, like on the ground.

I'm not trying to say that these things teach ground fighting in Aikido, just that some of the principles from those types of training are applicable to ground fighting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 02:46 AM   #6
Walter Martindale
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
Location: Cambridge, ON
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 655
Canada
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Stuart Walsh wrote: View Post
Agreed, but I think to many people discount the value of suwari waza and ukemi in this area. Common principles of all types of armed or unarmed conflict are the application of power and the ability to manoeuvre that power to it's most effective location. Being on the ground immediately impacts your ability to manoeuvre and apply your power.

Some of the lessons of ukemi are how to get back to your feet quickly and how to protect your centre while getting back to your feet. That helps fix the manoeuvre issue.

When trying to apply power on the ground, when not in the standing position, it is difficult to make effective use of hip rotation, dropping of your centre, extension, irimi etc. In the standing position, we can "fudge" those things by stepping further out or turning more, suwari waza does not let you get away with those things. So this helps with your ability to apply power with limited ability to manoeuvre, like on the ground.

I'm not trying to say that these things teach ground fighting in Aikido, just that some of the principles from those types of training are applicable to ground fighting.
Suwari waza may assist in control before getting to the ground situation if practiced honestly but ground fighting (in judo it's newaza, but there are still rules about what you can and can't do) contains another dimension of control. Things like never letting your elbows get straight, keeping control of your wrists, covering and countering strikes, gouges, chokes, bites, butts, and all the "dirty" stuff that isn't permitted in the "octagon"... A good offense is also a good defense, but you can't throw away the caution and forget that your opponent may have weapons or worse yet, friends.

W
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 03:11 AM   #7
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Stuart Walsh wrote: View Post
All the time, it's called suwari waza and ukemi
Certainly not the same.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 05:31 AM   #8
Brian Gillaspie
 
Brian Gillaspie's Avatar
Dojo: School of Martial and Meditative Arts
Location: Topeka, KS
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 72
United_States
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

Thanks to everyone for their input. I agree there are many benefits to suwari waza but I was referring to being all the way on the ground. Such as on your back with someone in the top mount position.

I have done some BJJ training (I'm just a one stripe white belt and basically don't really know much of anything yet) and I can tell you the first few times I trained other bjj guys owned me because I was unable to find out how to apply the aikido principles when I had very bad positioning. I know my aikido training has helped me in some ways with bjj but to be honest it usually hard for me to tell how it is working.

So we do a little training in ground work in our dojo but I do encourage other students to look into bjj.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 08:48 AM   #9
crbateman
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
crbateman's Avatar
Location: Orlando, FL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,439
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

I have seen ne-waza practiced in a couple of independent Aikido schools, both with instructors having a pronounced JJ background. I have not encountered it in most other places I've looked at. I'm sure many will say that grappling is really not Aikido. I won't be that judgmental...
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 08:57 AM   #10
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

The goal is to not be on the ground. Aikido is a standing jujitsu art. It's main assumption came from aikijujitsu , where the assumption was that you are a trained Budoka, that has lost his sword, defending against Budoka with swords. The goal is to not get on the ground in a traditional sense. (other than suwazi, which is technically standing anyways.)
The assumption in the classical sense is that your attackers are trained in Budo, and will react like one who is trained in Budo. That's why Uke traditionally reacts the way he does.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 09:00 AM   #11
AsimHanif
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 479
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

BJJ is fine but if you have a solid background in judo or wrestling that will work as well.
I usually incorporate ground fighting as a way of exploring if a pin is effective or in the form of kaeshiwaza.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 09:19 AM   #12
Melchizedek
 
Melchizedek's Avatar
Dojo: Phil. Aikikai/Santiago Aikido Club
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 96
Philippines
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

^^ Hi from what i know its always depending on the person, when you practice Aikido Your no longer a warrior or a fighter but something else ____________ ^L^,
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 09:23 AM   #13
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

As an ex-wrestler, I do add that component to my teaching at my school. It is an infrequent, yet important subject matter. That being said, being on the ground, either as the aggressor or defender, is a very risky endeavor, because most fights that end up on the ground, take place with other people around. I am very comfortable being on the ground in either situation, but I am very, very careful in being aware of my situation before I would allow myself to be on the ground for any appreciable period of time.

I think that one of the benefits of working on the ground is that it really requires internal core body movement in order to generate powerful, effective movement. If you cannot twist your hips (like in some standing throws) because you are on the ground, can you still generate the power with minimal, external movement? That is an important lesson that helps the execution of techniques when you are standing.

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 09:38 AM   #14
ramenboy
Dojo: midwest aikido center
Location: chicago
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 326
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

at the very least, you should be able to escape the mount, and get back to your feet again.

one of my sempai does some grappling from the ground in his class, i do too in my class, depending on who shows up

practice hard
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 09:42 AM   #15
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
The goal is to not be on the ground. Aikido is a standing jujitsu art.
The goal is not able attainable. What will you do if you do end up on the ground. Will your suwari waza let you out of there? Assumptions...
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 10:54 AM   #16
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
The goal is not able attainable. What will you do if you do end up on the ground. Will your suwari waza let you out of there? Assumptions...
If you get caught on the ground, you have failed to practice aikido effectively. If you don't trust your aikido not to fail, then it is prudent to cross train in BJJ or other ground arts, absolutely.
However, in the end for an Aikidoka, having strong enough Aikido to trust that you will not allow yourself to be taken to the ground is thegoal.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 11:15 AM   #17
aikishihan
Dojo: aikido academy/alhambra,california
Location: Los Angeles, California
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 369
United_States
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

It is not what or how you perform, that makes it Aikido. Rather, it is the intent,purpose and spirit you bring to the task

I was not there, but I have to believe that Takeda Sokaku, amongst others, did train the young Ueshiba all aspects of their juijitsu, including an effective ground game. It was the late Doshu who de-emphasized the more sanguine training of the past.

In my dojo, I have an excellent jiu jitsu sensei give classes twice a week for any who are interested. We call it "tatami waza", avoiding calling it either jiu jitsu or aikido. The response has been most positive, and yes, the conditioning exercises are awesome!

Again, it is the "substance" of accepting and incorporating Aiki Principles when we traIn, and not the "style" of the actual training format itself, that is most important. The ways of training in Aiki are too numerable to count. Simply enjoy what you do, because you choose to do so.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 11:16 AM   #18
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Francis Takahashi wrote: View Post
It is not what or how you perform, that makes it Aikido. Rather, it is the intent,purpose and spirit you bring to the task
I digress, that's avery good attitude to bring to it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 12:15 PM   #19
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 846
United_States
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
If you get caught on the ground, you have failed to practice aikido effectively. If you don't trust your aikido not to fail, then it is prudent to cross train in BJJ or other ground arts, absolutely.
However, in the end for an Aikidoka, having strong enough Aikido to trust that you will not allow yourself to be taken to the ground is thegoal.
No offense, but that's a naive and unrealistic attitude to have about it. It's not a matter of trusting your aikido or "not allowing yourself to be taken down". There are 101 ways you can end up on the ground while doing EVERYTHING right and there are a million more reasons you can end up there while making just a single mistake, much less several. It's simple, if you want to be prepared, you need additional, non-aikido training because Aikido does not prepare you, in any way, for that scenario.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 12:28 PM   #20
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 903
United_States
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
No offense, but that's a naive and unrealistic attitude to have about it. It's not a matter of trusting your aikido or "not allowing yourself to be taken down". There are 101 ways you can end up on the ground while doing EVERYTHING right and there are a million more reasons you can end up there while making just a single mistake, much less several. It's simple, if you want to be prepared, you need additional, non-aikido training because Aikido does not prepare you, in any way, for that scenario.
I already digressed from my statement.
It probably is a naive statement to have. Frankly, I don't cross train in BJJ because I don't enjoy BJJ. I don't wrestle, because I hate wrestling. I have never had any delusion that I could defend myself. I don't care if I'm prepared to defend myself or not.. I keep no enemies.
I could care less about winning fights, I never cared if I became a force to reckon with.
I just love to throw people.

Last edited by RED : 12-21-2009 at 12:30 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 12:30 PM   #21
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

Takahashi Sensei said it best....

IMO My 2 Cents is Aikido as a Martial Art should work everywhere... From to tips of your fingers to flat on your back...

Personally having a Judo background... I work really hard on my Takedown defense and that includes stuff you would not see in a match like boxing ears and fishhooks...Folks have to remember "Street" BJJ, Sambo, and other Ground Arts are very deadly when used outside of the "Octagon" Last thing I would want is to be on the ground without an effective practice to defend myself with.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 12:33 PM   #22
jason jordan
 
jason jordan's Avatar
Dojo: Dallas Aikikai/ Southlake Aikikai
Location: Southlake Texas
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 113
United_States
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Francis Takahashi wrote: View Post
It is not what or how you perform, that makes it Aikido. Rather, it is the intent,purpose and spirit you bring to the task

I was not there, but I have to believe that Takeda Sokaku, amongst others, did train the young Ueshiba all aspects of their juijitsu, including an effective ground game. It was the late Doshu who de-emphasized the more sanguine training of the past.

In my dojo, I have an excellent jiu jitsu sensei give classes twice a week for any who are interested. We call it "tatami waza", avoiding calling it either jiu jitsu or aikido. The response has been most positive, and yes, the conditioning exercises are awesome!

Again, it is the "substance" of accepting and incorporating Aiki Principles when we traIn, and not the "style" of the actual training format itself, that is most important. The ways of training in Aiki are too numerable to count. Simply enjoy what you do, because you choose to do so.
Hello Mr. Takahashi
I think you and my sensei know each other
"Michael Moreno"? At any rate, I couldn't agree
with you more. I consider Aikido as a concept by which
to apply various waza and not the waza itself.

Kinda like Jeet Kun Do. Waza help to explore the principles
of Aiki.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 01:05 PM   #23
Chris Covington
 
Chris Covington's Avatar
Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 73
United_States
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

I studied judo for about 6 years in high school and college. We spent a lot of time on newaza after class. One of the "games" we would play we called "back-to-back." Two people would sit on the mat with their legs out and backs touching. A third person would call the start and you'd turn and face each other. The rules were you had to stay on your knees the whole time (so no standing up) and you had to pin or tap the person (standard judo/BJJ sort of rules applied... no punching eye pokes, etc). We kept the matches to 2 min.

To make the game more interesting sometimes we would have two-on-one. After 30 seconds a 2nd person would come in and play by the same rules... stay on the knees and help pin or tap the other person. It taught me some interesting things about how to play two people off of each other much like aikido randori and I found it to be a very valuable experience. It is not a position I would ever really want to be in but it did give a great deal of perspective.

Another game we would play based on the same rules was tossing a knife in the mix. As the two people wrestled the ref. would toss in a wooden tanto or rubber knife and then we'd play it out with that. You'd have to fight your way to the weapon and then try to attack with it. Stabs or cuts to the body, neck, etc would mean a loss. Again, not a position I would ever want to be in. Most of the weapons stuff came from the "jujutsu" classes. The "jujutsu" was an American style jujutsu based on judo kata (Goshinjutsu and Kime mostly), sport judo throws and Hakko-ryu.

We would do ground work after every regular judo and jujutsu class (four times a week) for about another hour or so. I sure was in good shape back than

Chris Covington
Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu kenjutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 03:23 PM   #24
aikishrine
Dojo: aikido of central new york
Location: syracuse,ny
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 143
United_States
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I already digressed from my statement.
It probably is a naive statement to have. Frankly, I don't cross train in BJJ because I don't enjoy BJJ. I don't wrestle, because I hate wrestling. I have never had any delusion that I could defend myself. I don't care if I'm prepared to defend myself or not.. I keep no enemies.
I could care less about winning fights, I never cared if I became a force to reckon with.
I just love to throw people.
What if god forbid you were being rapped. i am sure you would like to rethink your stance at that point. And also remember this combat is fluid and ugly, nothing goes as planned, i dont care how great you are at a particular martial art win or lose you will get hit.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2009, 03:45 PM   #25
Stormcrow34
Dojo: Yoseikan Budo
Location: Florida
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 96
United_States
Offline
Re: Ground Defense

Quote:
Brian Gillaspie wrote: View Post
I'm just curious how many dojos train for defending yourself when you are on the ground. If you do, how often do you train.

I know in a perfect world you should never end up on the ground but I know I am not always perfect....my wife reminds me of that quite often.
Yoseikan Budo has Judo ne waza as an important part of the curriculum. I'd say we practice ne waza regularly, but not every training session. At 9th kyu, you need to be able to effectively pin a resisting uke with at least two common techniques.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Seminar with Frank Doran, Shihan - Aug. 8-10, 2014 at Sunset Cliff's Aikido, near San Diego's finest beaches



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Full Speed Randori and Self Defense smithid General 40 12-27-2009 11:24 PM
True Self Defense George S. Ledyard External Aikido Blog Posts 1 08-10-2009 07:13 AM
What is "combat"? Bill Danosky General 78 05-11-2008 10:40 PM
Self defense against what??? Yann Golanski General 11 08-26-2004 02:13 PM
The Telescope DaveO General 11 07-16-2004 09:11 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:06 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate