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Old 03-24-2002, 03:10 PM   #1
Erik
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This thread brought up a few random thoughts.

What is this non-violence stuff? That's nice philosophy but to paraphrase my new favorite, and stolen line, do this stuff on your grandmother and ask her if it's non-violent. That word gets thrown around a lot and I dunno maybe it doesn't mean the same thing to me that it does to everyone else.

Secondly, hard training by itself doesn't produce any magical spiritual change that I've seen. If so, how come all the other athletic endaevors which require intense commitment to training aren't producing an abundance of spiritual beings? Hard training is hard training, nothing more.

While I agree with the private life bit, Seagal has chosen to make himself a public figure and there is a price to be paid for that and at least in his case substantial financial rewards as well. It goes with the territory and to be frank I don't think he's shied away from that attention or image.
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Old 03-24-2002, 07:07 PM   #2
Chuck Clark
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Erik
What is this non-violence stuff? That's nice philosophy but to paraphrase my new favorite, and stolen line, do this stuff on your grandmother and ask her if it's non-violent. That word gets thrown around a lot and I dunno maybe it doesn't mean the same thing to me that it does to everyone else.
In my experience, strong, powerful, effective technique in any art does not immediately imply violence.

Is a tornado violent? Is a lion killing a gazelle for lunch violent? etc.... I don't think so. Violence seems to me to belong to humans and possibly some apes. Just because something is forceful and even that harm is done at some level doesn't seem to neccesarily mean that its violent.

Violence seems to me to come from fear, anger, greed, jealousy, etc.

Maybe I'm not using the word violent the same way as many others do.

I'm interested to see what some others think about this subject.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
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Old 03-24-2002, 10:16 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Erik
Secondly, hard training by itself doesn't produce any magical spiritual change that I've seen. If so, how come all the other athletic endaevors which require intense commitment to training aren't producing an abundance of spiritual beings? Hard training is hard training, nothing more.

I'm sorry but what you say is in direct contradiction to the spirit of Japanese martial arts altogether, for which hard training is the direct way to enlightment.

Of course hard training that we are talking about is the one accompanied with a certain mental attitude, which maybe lacks in the pure athletic endeavours.

I've read extensively on this matter and all masters from the past and present emphasize that hard training combined with an empty mind is the way to understand your art not the intellectual analysis of its contents.

Cheers,
Edward
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Old 03-25-2002, 11:58 AM   #4
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Clark
Maybe I'm not using the word violent the same way as many others do.
Hi Chuck! I think that can happen.

From Webster's online dictionary:

1. Physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing: crimes of violence.
2. The act or an instance of violent action or behavior.
3. Intensity or severity, as in natural phenomena; untamed force: the violence of a tornado.
4. Abusive or unjust exercise of power.
5. Abuse or injury to meaning, content, or intent: do violence to a text.
6. Vehemence of feeling or expression; fervor.

In my own case, I see it from the perspective of putting a sankyo on someone and recognizing that they may not land gracefully or completely intact. As I thought more on this, and after looking at the definitions, perhaps if we said something like "our intent is not to be violent" it would make more sense to me.
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Old 03-28-2002, 03:14 PM   #5
Bruce Baker
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non violence

Of course Aikido is NON VIOLENT ... O'Sensei took out the violent killing aspects of jujitsu, and budo techniques that allow for killing and injury.

Read the Article of O'Sensei, and K. Uesheba where O'Sensei specifically tells the interviewer how he changed his practice into what we call Aikido today?

You are not supposed to learn the actual killing techniques unless you are a warrior pledged to kill, or a defender pledged to protect with your life. This happens when with time, study, and if you live long enough to get past the testosterone of youth? (which really messes up you head/ just check out any advance study book that basically tells you you control emotion and give up sex.)

Many of us learn the hardships of death by seeing it firsthand ... bodys ripped and torn like animals on the expressway, but in human form, with human faces, and human lives. This is why Morehei Ueshiba changed many of our aikido forms into wave riding throws rather than gut slamming bodily injuries?

If you want violence, go do judo for awhile, with some full contact karate. If you survive, and are intact enough to continue MA, you just might get back to Aikido and have some fun without violence?
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Old 03-28-2002, 03:58 PM   #6
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Where in the name of The Great Pumpkin did this thread come from? I sure didn't start it.

No wonder the Seagal thread got so much shorter.

Boulder, we have a problem!
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Old 03-28-2002, 04:05 PM   #7
akiy
 
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I went and split the original thread into two since this thread really didn't have much to do with the original one...

-- Jun

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Old 03-28-2002, 04:51 PM   #8
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
I went and split the original thread into two since this thread really didn't have much to do with the original one...
I freely admit that I can cause thread drift, I'm not terribly linear in my thought process and often link things in ways other's might consider unusual, but Seagal and non-violence fit together quite well IMO. I'm certain I could make a good case on this, particularly since the violent portion of his movies is what seems to get everyone all riled up.

Anyways, I think defining non-violence is a good thread because the word is used so often but I'd rather know when a thread was split.

Last edited by Erik : 03-28-2002 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 03-28-2002, 07:44 PM   #9
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Re: non violence

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker

Hi Bruce, mle here.. posting under LOEP's login cuz we share a computer and I'd never find this thread again if he logged out.

Of course Aikido is NON VIOLENT ... O'Sensei took out the violent killing aspects of jujitsu, and budo techniques that allow for killing and injury.
Bruce, you are.. 5th kyu in aikido? Where?
Yes, it all seems pretty mild to you.
I've been REALLY THROWN by decent aikidoka and judoka and jujutsuka, and I assume they were all being nice to me, because I am still breathing and walking around.
I only have a shodan in aikido, but I have also studied kenjutsu (a little), wing tsun, kickboxing and jujutsu.
Oh yeah, and I did judo for a year under an 8th dan Olympic judo coach Zdenek Matl. Softest stuff I ever did.


Read the Article of O'Sensei, and K. Uesheba where O'Sensei specifically tells the interviewer how he changed his practice into what we call Aikido today?
[/quote]

_Aikido_, Kisshomaru Ueshiba:
"Aikido comes into being when the kind of strict training that results from confronting the instant of life and death is used as a stepping stone from which to leap above ones usual level."

Is being attacked with a fist or knife not violence? Is the instant of life and death not, in many definitions, violence?
What if your attacker does not have "good ukemi"? certainly they will be broken.

It is the Law of the Jungle, as Chuck Clark says, a simple law that when the weaker attacks the stronger (tactically, mind you), the stronger must survive, and the weaker must perish.


You are not supposed to learn the actual killing techniques unless you are a warrior pledged to kill, or a defender pledged to protect with your life. This happens when with time, study, and if you live long enough to get past the testosterone of youth?
[/quote]

I'm not sure what you mean by "killing techniques" perhaps you can elaborate?

Heheh. Not much testosterone here. I'm female, and before I get the standard response (from men of a certain generation who learn I have done martial arts for 1/3 my life- 10 years), I am also heterosexual. And feminine.


*testosterone* (which really messes up you head/ just check out any advance study book that basically tells you you control emotion and give up sex.)
[/quote]

FEAR is what messes up your head.
Imagine walking down a dark street at night, downtown. By yourself. Scared?
Now try it as a woman.


If you want violence, go do judo for awhile, with some full contact karate. If you survive, and are intact enough to continue MA, you just might get back to Aikido and have some fun without violence?
[/quote]

*Ahem*
Go do BAD judo for a while and get that.
Bad aikido is like a physical definition of passive-aggressive violence, everyone is ever so much more aiki than thee until you resist and they try to break you with force.
The good stuff in both judo and aikido is like a force of nature, incredibly soft until you hit the mat.

Bruce, I'm not really sure where you're coming from, but your posts strike me as posts of one who hasn't yet really tasted the Good Stuff, and might not notice if you did...

mle

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Old 03-28-2002, 08:32 PM   #10
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A Few Thoughts

Just a few thoughts before dinner-
Why do i think non-violence is the way to go? Simple: I enjoy the feeling of having some other human being treating me as another human being and not a punching bag. Taking the route of violence is the easy way out. To quote some great sage (or the voice in my head) "Making conflict takes no skill or thought or compassion, making peace takes true spirit." To get back to the question asked, non-violence is the meathod of having everyone come out with no less than they started and with the least amount of physical, emotional, or psychological damage.

Just my $0.02-
Cheers-
Ben

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Old 03-28-2002, 09:43 PM   #11
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Re: A Few Thoughts

Quote:
Originally posted by Lenocinari
... non-violence is the meathod of having everyone come out with no less than they started and with the least amount of physical, emotional, or psychological damage.
This is, of course, the optimum goal for what I call "social self-defense" (differing from the military goal in combat that MAY include taking the enemy's life as efficiently and quickly as possible with the least amount of damage to yourself).

We must realize though, that the words "least amount" take in lots of territory. The only person that has any ability to decide what those words mean is the person involved in the conflict. On a realistic view, we must (hopefully) also be able to convince the authorities that we were justified in that use of force.

Just being alive means we do harm in one way or another all of the time. The goal is to do as little harm as possible. When we must do harm we should do it as efficiently as possible with compassion, respect, and ... yes ... LOVE.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
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Old 03-29-2002, 07:25 AM   #12
Bruce Baker
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non violent/ violence

HI guys,

First of all, I gave up testing, because of never being able to remember anything when any kind of stress happens, the meniere's thing, and testing my theory in order to make all techniques blend would require letting them become naturally ingrain as part of your instinct, not crammed in as we do for testing week and forgotten the next month. (My personal distaste for belt rankings, no offense to those of you who place more upon them, please excuse me for following my own path.) Along with meeting belt ranking who couldn't explain or link the many techniques and forms they had learned to actual physical combat, i.e. there are no blocks in kata, and all kata moves are designed to activate pressure points and kill, although in Aikido O'Sensei found a way to leave them in with hitting, pushing, or rubbing the appropriate points .... enough of this line.

Anyway, my experience with combat and pain is the mechanical breakdown and study of what works, over what is superfluous and does not. The actual application of injurys caused over the years, to myself and, sadly, to others.

You want to see some beautiful jiujitsu, watch Wally Jay some time ... never let him grab your fingers, or you will believe in two fingers making you dance like a rag doll? Even Wally's kids, now in their late forties, know not to let their dad get their fingers, and they have black belts in multiple disciplines?

Maybe I have had the violent childhood? Fight like knights with wooden swords and garbage can tops, or playing G.I. Joe with cap guns until we grappled hand to hand, or maybe it is the fighting from my pre-marital drinking years of accidently breaking bones, or maybe it is from seeing how far controled violence from attacks by weapons and combat can go from MA studies and practices? Go figure? Observation, notes, and actual experience is my only black belt, it may be the only one I ever need? So long as I speak of things that are true, and allow others to find these truths by studying these things for themselves?

I am afraid that Chuck Gordon and many other people who begin to know me will observe, I say things that might not be mainstream, but I have learned them either firsthand or proved them firsthand with two or three sources and actual accounts by people who know events or information firsthand? Either that, or practiced these things on the mat, at one time or another?

Maybe the violence of learning self protection by causing injury before innitiating a technique, jab to ribs/eyes/throat/ or any open area that activates pain, before starting to understand the nerve and muscle reaction of pressure points that actually causes the brain to scream ... PAIN! It is said that the "Little Pine Tree Temple Boxers" of the style of Kempo Karate I studied were bad ass dudes in their day, kicking ass in all tournaments.

After learning nearly everything my teacher had learned, in the arena of sparring and self defense/offense of Kempo Karate/ Wally Jay Jujitsu, I went toe to toe with the best black belts, although they were ten years younger than myself, and earned their respect in a draw during sparring? Why? Because I saw the opportunity to really hurt them or myself, but just letting their best moves undermine them attacks or bounce off my redirections by kicks or strikes? My soft point was allowing them to get a strike in, which was left open to make practice more interesting, and getting a full fledge strike that put me to my knees? Of course when they were knocked to their knees, I was much to violent, go sit out the rest of practice ...

Violence? Nothing like getting someone's dander up by neutralizing their best moves, it really ticks them off! Yeah, being attacked by a maniac who doesn't return to clear mind for two or three minutes would qualify, wouldn't it? Not including bar brawls, general streetfights, attempted muggings in teenage to early adult years before entering the 220 pound range?

I learned a long time ago, black belts don't protect you, knowledge and knowing how to use it does. Ronin? Maybe. But this is my journey, my way.

Funny, nobody wants to play attack Bruce anymore? I guess I will just have to play nice until sensei Chet says, "Get HIM!"

(He hasn't said it yet, but I can wait. Non-violent, right?)
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Old 03-29-2002, 11:28 AM   #13
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by LOEP
Bad aikido is like a physical definition of passive-aggressive violence, everyone is ever so much more aiki than thee until you resist and they try to break you with force.
In an Aikido dojo?



Where?



This I cannot imagine.

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Old 03-29-2002, 01:57 PM   #14
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Exclamation Non-Violent Budo

Quote:
Originally posted by Erik
This thread brought up a few random thoughts.

What is this non-violence stuff? That's nice philosophy but to paraphrase my new favorite, and stolen line, do this stuff on your grandmother and ask her if it's non-violent. That word gets thrown around a lot and I dunno maybe it doesn't mean the same thing to me that it does to everyone else...
The word BUDO is commonly thought of as The Way of War. However another possible translation of it is Stop Spear, the spear being a common weapon in China. It is this second meaning of budo that the idea of dealing with violence comes from. You aren't passive about violence, but you do something about it and end it. Like Sun Tzu's Superior Commander, you march your army around until they are in such a dominating position the enemy has no choice but to surrender, even though there was no fighting. This is a non-violent ideal.

Quote:
Originally posted by Erik
...Secondly, hard training by itself doesn't produce any magical spiritual change that I've seen. If so, how come all the other athletic endaevors which require intense commitment to training aren't producing an abundance of spiritual beings? Hard training is hard training, nothing more...
This is correct! Therefore most martial arts also have some form of spiritual practice like breathing exercises and meditation included in their curriculum. Other things like reading spiritual writings are also done, usually at home, away from the dojo.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 03-29-2002, 08:48 PM   #15
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what is non-violence?

i believe Erik hit on something in his first post including the dictionary definition. In all the definitions, the concept of "intent" seemed to appear (even when it wasn't explicitly stated as in the use of the word "abuse".

While we understand that when we use a particular technique which causes injury or death, even that may not be violent until we interject the concept of "ego" into the performance of that technique. When we perform a certain technique, but without anger or malice, in a matter of fact way,it may look like violence because of the end result, but it was done non-violently, without anger and only to the extent necessary to thwart the attack.
janet dtantirojanarat
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Old 03-30-2002, 08:19 AM   #16
mle
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Re: non violent/ violence

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
HI guys,
First of all, I gave up testing, because of never being able to remember anything when any kind of stress happens, the meniere's thing,
It's interesting to me to know Chuck, who also has Meniere's, and yet doesn't appear to be impaired except that he can't sit on the physioball like I can, and to hear from you, who finds it so disabling.

Yeah, lots of belt rankings don't mean a damn thing. Mine meant 10 years of committment and effort, relationships I still cherish, injuries I survived, and principles I try to remember.

Can't vouch for anybody but me on that one.


You want to see some beautiful jiujitsu, watch Wally Jay some time ... never let him grab your fingers, or you will believe in two fingers making you dance like a rag doll? Even Wally's kids, now in their late forties, know not to let their dad get their fingers, and they have black belts in multiple disciplines?
[/quote]

I hear differing reports on him. Never seen him myself. I know he trained under Dr Henry Okizaki (Danzan Ryu) and I know some folks who have seen him and trained with him.

Observation, notes, and actual experience is my only black belt, it may be the only one I ever need?
[/quote]

Internally referenced information has never been really tested. That means it may be only true for you.
Truth has to be transferrable to be relevant.

In my case it meant a committment which I stuck to despite my cross-training and explorations of other arts. It means others with skill have recognized my attempts at skill.

Now, I don't have a shodan from a Prominent Respected Organization, necessarily, it's not even Aikikai (though Rod Kobayashi and Kisshomaru Doshu did talk and Seidokan is, AFAIK, recognized by Aikikai). I don't necessarily trade on that in any case.
I offer to take the black belt off, but no one I train with will let me.
I trade on my open attitude and on my reputation for being fun, and possibly educational (for beginners anyway!) to train with.

I don't get in fights, but I attribute that to a certain skill, as well...


I am afraid that Chuck Gordon and many other people who begin to know me will observe, I say things that might not be mainstream,
[/quote]

Actually, you seem extremely mainstream (as in, influenced by Black Belt and Kung Fu magazine) to me and others.


Maybe the violence of learning self protection by causing injury before innitiating a technique, jab to ribs/eyes/throat/ or any open area that activates pain, before starting to understand the nerve and muscle reaction of pressure points that actually causes the brain to scream ... PAIN!
[/quote]

And learning that there are those who cannot be influenced by pain.. you hit anybody hard enough _anywhere_ and you'll get a reaction.
But then, would that not be "violence"?


It is said that the "Little Pine Tree Temple Boxers" of the style of Kempo Karate I studied were bad ass dudes in their day, kicking ass in all tournaments.
[/quote]

So you did Kosho Shorei Kempo?
Who did you get to study with?

Chuck Clark and others who have both competed and fought in wars will tell you it's not the same at all.
You are old enough to have been drafted. Would you have gone if they called you?

I personally am very shy and peaceful, and will fight to stay that way if I have to, though I'd really rather not, and have many other resources.

That's my definition of non-violence.

mle

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Old 04-07-2002, 10:26 AM   #17
Bruce Baker
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Violence in aikido

Hi Mle

My menieres is affected by almost no balance in the left ear, while the nerves affecting some balance in my right ear are turned on and off by Tri-geminal neuralgia ... let alone neutralizing the oxygen depravation of sleep aphnia diagnosed too late with oxygen suppliment while sleeping? (When I get sick, I get sick)

Being built like a gorilla weighing forty pound heavier than other people my size, muscle is heavier than fat, doesn't help either. On the other hand, it does allow me to keep up with my 20 year younger counterparts, at least in strength coefficient anyway?

As for Black Belt Magazine, I only use it to put our Seminars in, most of the articles have extreme lack of detail, truthful explaination, or exact source of technique with scientific supports ... in other words, every time someone points out this article or that guy I almost always see an old technique that is modified?
Please don't use it as a reference point, except for pictures of teachers, it is much too vague.

As for Wally Jay, and George Dillman ... You will find many of their books, videos and seminars complimentary to Aikido ... even if the way they teach is slighty different? Many of the old resisted strength is overcome by clarity of using/explaining movements we naturally use in Aikido scientific and proven applications. They do hold up under scrutiny, adding to knowledge with more than just mystical explanations or classical rhetoric?

Maybe your knowledge of these people comes from Black Belt Magazine, not actual experience? Kind of like reading threads that tell you to go train in one discipline to get all the experience you will ever need?

Enough spitting contest violence, although it does stay with the thread on another level, doesn't it?

My physical deterioration is equal to loss of balance like alcohol, but being totally sober, sometimes with body aches from the flu like malaise ... it really sucks when the whole building is moving like a ship in a hurricane. Since I have had Bell's Palsy to turn off each side of my facial nerves, I have medical evidence to support limited balance left available to me.

As for violence? Let's try to understand it in order to neutralize it, and become superior to it in an attempt to save the violent tendancys of humanity, as well as ourselves, with our practice and life of Aikido? If you can't live your life like you preach on Sunday, then perhaps we need to make a change in that life. Hopefully practicing Aikido and understanding the big wide world will help to do that.

(Old enough to have served in 1971 /USCG/ greenland to Cuba on a 298 ft cutter)
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Old 04-07-2002, 11:14 AM   #18
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Bruce,

I try to resist making medical comments (hey, I DO you guys) but your many references to your disabilites in past threads have reached my limit: go get a second medical opinion. Please.

The conditions you list should not affect your memory. Period. If you are having memory problems so severe you cannot test, it is not due to anything you've listed.

Meniere's will affect your hearing, and to some extent your balance, but your symptoms sound pretty severe. Maybe something else is going on. Same for sleep apnea (which, by the way, is often helped with losing some weight). The fatigue you refer to should have resolved with the CPAP, if not, see your doc or a new one.

Memory problems so severe you cannot test, fatigue so severe you cannot train--- you need a second opinion, and soon. It's not due to anything you've listed as a health condition. It may just be something as simple as needing to work on aerobic conditioning/loose wt/adjust therapy, but it is not what I'd expect to hear from a patient with your conditions.
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