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Old 10-30-2009, 12:56 PM   #176
David Orange
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
...your shoulders will react even if you have the intent to lift using jin, so when that happens, readjust again so that your lifting with jin. I did that for about 7 months. Then I started discussing the lower back and expanding it and the back 'suit', so I moved from intent in putting the pressure in the foot, and now I use intent in the lower back (tilt the pelvis) and use the stretch in the back to lift the spear.
Hmmmm.....so much to do.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 10-30-2009, 01:03 PM   #177
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Hmmmm.....so much to do.

Thanks.

David
We joke about that in class. When we first started, we laughed that it was like an iceberg. We only saw the barest tip of something that ran very deep under the water. Then someone said, no, it was worse. What we were working on was like one single snowflake on the very tip of the tip of the iceberg. We hadn't even begun to understand what was under the water.
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Old 10-30-2009, 01:04 PM   #178
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

[quote=Christian Moses;244335] ... they are simply displaced by your biggification.
QUOTE]

Ha! Oh, sorry, I thought this was the 'obesity' thread.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-30-2009, 01:17 PM   #179
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
We joke about that in class. When we first started, we laughed that it was like an iceberg. We only saw the barest tip of something that ran very deep under the water. Then someone said, no, it was worse. What we were working on was like one single snowflake on the very tip of the tip of the iceberg. We hadn't even begun to understand what was under the water.
Well said! +1 to what Mark wrote. Seriously...that is why I asked if it was *really* worth the effort. Isn't 'high level jujutsu' enough (if you're amazing enough to be able to do that)...it's got to be easier?! ; )
i saw this:
PASSION: There are many things in life that will catch your eye, but only a few will catch your heart. Pursue those.

Why is this stuff so like that... catching your heart..and rousing that passion? ..only more questions
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Old 10-30-2009, 01:19 PM   #180
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Always good input, Mark, and thanks for making these posts.
David
Absolutely. Thank you.
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Old 10-30-2009, 01:21 PM   #181
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Hi Lorel,

Did you see this post by Upyu: here< . He points to this< book. Oooh… I like some of the teasers on that site. I have not yet bought or read it though. Although I do plan to. I'm going to quote some of the stuff she wrote (which i cannot do!), okay:

When you say that your intent gets stuck there..it reminds me of the bolded portions. About ‘nudging the flow along'. Is that part of the hard/soft conditioning process? Removing these blockages? If you are sensitive enough to identify a blockage….is there…well….a systematic process for unblocking it? I am assuming that soft-tissue bodywork and/or myofascial release just ain't gonna cut it. Idea: For instance, I assume you can feel where your conscious control of the ‘intent' ends…where the ‘blockage' starts and where, loosely, you can feel the ‘intent' resume on the other side? If that is wrong; let me know. Well…is a ‘hard' method something like; creating that intention (with blockage and all) and having someone beat you with a sock full of rocks on the blockage..to trigger the body to increase blood flow, etc…until it comes around? Is the soft method just to say there irradiating your body with intention until the blockage is removed? I don't know.
I wonder about what is the essence of the blockage/'intent getting stuck'.

Is it tilting the pelvis ‘backwards'? Did you see the previous references to back-tipping of the sacrum (i.e. counter-nutation)? Is that what you are talking about? Mind saying a bit more on how you feel that helps you do agete? Is it about ‘loading' uke onto your own body?

Cheers man,
Josh
Hi Josh,

Havne't read the book. Actually, I still have to work on Kumar Franzsis' (however the hell u spell his name) book and Mantak Chia's book. When I go back to Tokyo, I'll ask Rob for this book.

As far as the second paragraph goes, I"m not sure but I think I always had a strong back. Because to this day, I still fight to relax it. It sucks. Funny you mention the soft-tissue thing, because I plan to go in January to get bodyworked, particularly for the back issue, release the fascia in the scapula area and perhaps even the lower back to increase the mobility there. I think bodywork is good. Someone told me of a story that Chen Xiao Wang's son used to get pwned by the other Chen students, but he came back one summer and all of a suddenly he was able to pwn the rest of them. There're rumours that they jacked CXW's with TCM and that was why he was able to pwn them. In any case, i see the logic of soft-tissue bodywork.

But yeah, there are definitely systematic ways to release the blockage. That's what tanren is all about. In paired practise you do exercises like agete, push out, push hands, etc. There you try to affect your partner as relaxed as possible...if you can't, there's a blockage, and you need to identify that. In my case, blockage was in the upper scapular area and in the shoulders so what I did was replicate the dynamics of the paired work into tanren. So for agete, I'd do spear lifts. Push out, push the wall. The neat thing about 'intent' is that you can take it into your other exercises. So if you are practising on initiating movement from the lower back, take that into your shiko and work it somehow, or your shintaijiku, etc.

"For instance, I assume you can feel where your conscious control of the ‘intent' ends…where the ‘blockage' starts and where, loosely, you can feel the ‘intent' resume on the other side?" It's really simple I think. You've trained your body (unknowingly) all your years as an adult. So your body will react to pressure the way it was trained. Once you start bodyskill training, you learn to identify these blockages and you begin to be aware of the 'potential' of your body--but the body will just not allow it. Ark's system teaches you to identify these bad habits, and then erase them. I'm looking at Ushiro Kenji's system intently now because apparently he can get his students to do things that they thought were not possible (suggesting that they bypass intent-blockages purely by the will of the mind). I have a hunch that he is teaching them simple jin tricks that any beginner can do. Maintaining the principle in these simplejin tricks is the goal of bodyskill training.

"Is it tilting the pelvis ‘backwards'? Did you see the previous references to back-tipping of the sacrum (i.e. counter-nutation)? Is that what you are talking about? Mind saying a bit more on how you feel that helps you do agete? Is it about ‘loading' uke onto your own body?"

Nah, it feels like it's going horizontally. Try this. Sit in a seiza position, and breath in. That will tilt the pelvis. Breath out and it will do go back to its vertical position. Also notice that when you breath in, you will feel like your arms are getting lifted..that's cause you're stretching the back suit and pulling it down (also up--tenchi). Also, you should feel like your 'front' side is closing. Me and some of the aunkai guys have been discussing that this dynamic is the same as squatting monkey exercise that you find in Xingyi. Another interesting observation: Ueshiba called aiki sage 'kokyu dosa' and Shioda said aikido is 'kokyu power' and I think I get why now. Breathing does not necessarily give you 'magical powers' but because it allows you to recognize and condition parts of the body that will allow aiki--the core of the aiki arts--to happen. I visited a Roppokai dojo lately, and the guy had skills..he made e touch his lower back and his stomach as he did agete with this other guy and you can guess what he did: inhaled, expanded his lower back, and what happened?...Kuzushi, happened. Aiki happened. But yeah, tilting the pelvis, stretches the back suit, and it 'sucks' or as you said "loads the uke onto you", and you can lift or stick to him and move him around (this was also the new thing i learned while I worked out wih the Roppokai guys..Dan Harden talks about this). The thing is, a lot of us just think of moving the arms when we do agete (and I"m able to do that because my i just do it with my frame), you need kuzushi first before you can do anything to your partner. The freaky thing about aiki isthat you can't really 'feel' your balance being taken, like you feel solid when you're planting yourself on the guy. If you're dealing with an aiki guy, you won't feel him stretching his back suit and loading him on to you..and only when you'r edumped on your ass will you realize that your balance was being taken.

Last edited by Lorel Latorilla : 10-30-2009 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 10-30-2009, 03:13 PM   #182
David Orange
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Why is this stuff so like that... catching your heart..and rousing that passion? ..only more questions
If you go back to the Chinese "six harmonies," the internal arts are direct expression of the heart. And then you really get into the mess...

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 10-30-2009, 07:49 PM   #183
Upyu
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
A good pointer is to look at the Aun statues . . (someone remind me, please - is that the root of the Aunkai name?) . .
Budd: Yes, Aunkai comes from the term "Aun" which is again derived from the Indian word "Om" etc etc.

Also a quick note about dragon back, Ark has mentioned that it's a specific skill of moving the back, kind of a "wave" (うねる) motion. I asked if this was different from a simple mechanical "waving," (along with opening/closing the back) which he affirmed. He said it was a result of specific conditioning, a movement which was "unusual" (hi-nichijouteki na ugoki). Talking to him further, I suspect it has to do with the windings in the body, and developing it to a further degree...but I'm not him so I can's say what's what with authority.

All I can say is that when he uses the skill, it allows him to move freakishly fast, be unpredictable, and the movement itself is just...unsettling. It's something best experienced rather than "talked about."
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Old 10-30-2009, 11:38 PM   #184
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
By the 'secret of the universe' comment...i was referring to the special secret decoder ring that... I'm sure exists... that.. kind of makes the yin/yang references all make sense.
..but that's probably asking for a bit much..
Cheers,
Josh
sorry. can't help you there since many people mean different things when they use those terms.

i could only give you is what's specific to ILC.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, your experience is undoubtedly deeper than mine, but I'm going by what Ark said: all the energy remains within your own body. And unless I'm remembering very poorly, Dan Harden said the same thing. Ark went further, I think, by saying that you "choke off" the techniques within yourself, i.e., you do the technique within yourself.

This was such a startling concept to me that it really stuck in my mind and became part of my understanding of the difference between internal and external: the internal relies on the center and manipulation of one's own center to generate power and that the power and techniques are retained entirely in one's own body. And internals use the fascia/connective tissue (suit) far more than muscle. And that became my way of understanding whether someone is talking about internals or externals in MA methods.
i'm not sure if this has ever been brought up before, but back in the day, nearly ALL chinese martial arts had some kind of "internal" training (nei gong) as part of the over all curriculum meant to condition the ligaments, tendons (i.e. fascia) and bones. the division between internal / external is fairly recent.

now as far as what ark or dan are referring to i cant say since i don't study their stuff and haven't touched hands with either, but what i can say is that we use a similar sounding concept called "completing the loop" (it's actually called circle with cross) which talks about the concept of making sure that your movements form COMPLETE circles at the point of contact as well as in the body. it's creating a tangent force, like using a pull to push or vice versa.

here's a clip talking more about the concept;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHuDb9Ou3Kk

it's important to note that the clip is not showing a technique, just a drill done with very large movements for working with a concept.

Last edited by ashe : 10-30-2009 at 11:45 PM.

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Old 10-31-2009, 12:40 AM   #185
Upyu
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Ashe Higgs wrote: View Post

now as far as what ark or dan are referring to i cant say since i don't study their stuff and haven't touched hands with either, but what i can say is that we use a similar sounding concept called "completing the loop" (it's actually called circle with cross) which talks about the concept of making sure that your movements form COMPLETE circles at the point of contact as well as in the body. it's creating a tangent force, like using a pull to push or vice versa.
Ashe,
With regards to the tangent force, I'm pretty sure that Sam is talking about Jin/kokyu force usage here.
And while he talks about grabbing the back etc, it assumes the person has a) the ability to project a jin/kokyu force and b) the ability to direct it properly via intent.

Putting that aside
The keeping pressure on the inside has more to do with a concept using "suit", or conditioning developed from Sam's TuNa exercises, and it's role in handling forces.
This part, has less to do with the jin force transmitted through the bones.

FWIW
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Old 10-31-2009, 12:47 AM   #186
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
In any case, the reason why you see Ark so relaxed is because he has destroyed what he would call the 'parasitic elements' in the shoulders and back that impede efficient movement.
Careful dude
He's tamed it much more than most, but I'd caveat that he's got his own problems to work out. His statement about gymnastics is extremely telling in this regard.

<Just trying to keep things in perspective>
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Old 10-31-2009, 02:26 AM   #187
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Hey Rob, I'm not sure what a 'kokyu' force is... Don't do JMA.

What I can say is everybody can project, you can't get away from it. It's just a matter of wether or not you've got it coordinated properly (can recognize section by section, projecting from the ming men, etc.)

Looking around at some of the other posts, I see a lot of discussion about 'intent', which is not a word I would use in combination with ILC. Attention is our thing and it's a different monster...

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Old 10-31-2009, 02:57 AM   #188
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Ashe Higgs wrote: View Post
I'm not sure what a 'kokyu' force is...
http://aikiweb.com/wiki/Kokyu - the issue I have with kokyu as a defining term is that it merely implies breath "pressure", whereas, in my mind, it encompasses far more than that. The "jin" that Rob refers to, pertains to ground force/weight. I'm guessing you need both...

Quote:
What I can say is everybody can project, you can't get away from it. It's just a matter of wether or not you've got it coordinated properly (can recognize section by section, projecting from the ming men, etc.)
If you're talking about projecting a force, that force must be generated from somewhere and propagated to somewhere first, no? IYO, where is the force generated from, and how is it propagated to the ming men, and projected from the ming men?

Ignatius
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Old 10-31-2009, 03:10 AM   #189
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Careful dude
He's tamed it much more than most, but I'd caveat that he's got his own problems to work out. His statement about gymnastics is extremely telling in this regard.

<Just trying to keep things in perspective>
Aight, my choice of words was too strong. I'd say he destroyed a lot to such a degree that you see him move the way he moves now.
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Old 10-31-2009, 04:34 AM   #190
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Order Aunkai's solo exercises tape and work like a monster on them. Rewatch it many times and really listen to the explanations and think about them and try to do the exercises as well as you can and keep coming back to the explanations and thinking about them.

I specify Ark's tapes because they're the only ones I know about! However, they are excellent tapes, very well done, organized, photographed and explained. A very worthwile purchase for anyone interested in this subject.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll definitely keep that on my wishlist.

Quote:
The point being, "MAKE it happen." Do what it takes to meet the best you can find. I see on your blog it looks like you attended Endo Sensei's seminar in DC? From Tasmania, you might as well go to Dan's in Massachusetts. Or Aunkai in Tokyo--an easy flight.

Just decide to get out there and meet the top guys.

Best to you.

David
LOL - in my blog i was suggesting that i wished i got a chance to attend Endo sensei's seminar . travelling overseas to attend seminars at the moment is not financially feasible for me at the moment, but i certainly look forward to such opportunities in the future. But yeah, it'd be sweet if I could visit Dan or Ark (or any of these internal guys) in the future.

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I'll point to my post in another thread:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=17

It's a start. I'm not saying it's easy to do, especially reading off of a computer screen with no one around to help. If you have questions about it, let me know.
hey, thanks for that Mark. I'll give that a go. i'll PM you if i need specific clarifications. cheers.
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Old 10-31-2009, 11:51 AM   #191
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Ashe Higgs wrote: View Post
Hey Rob, I'm not sure what a 'kokyu' force is... Don't do JMA.

What I can say is everybody can project, you can't get away from it. It's just a matter of wether or not you've got it coordinated properly (can recognize section by section, projecting from the ming men, etc.)

Looking around at some of the other posts, I see a lot of discussion about 'intent', which is not a word I would use in combination with ILC. Attention is our thing and it's a different monster...
Ashe...waht do you see as the difference between intent and attention?

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Old 10-31-2009, 03:25 PM   #192
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
... what do you see as the difference between intent and attention?
Not quite a ton ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-31-2009, 10:46 PM   #193
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

I just realized Kusaimen may be good for something after all...fertilizer.
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Old 10-31-2009, 10:47 PM   #194
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Ashe, Yeah, sure...if you don't mind, I'd love to hear about it. (re: Yin//Yang in ILC)
Cheers,
Josh
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Old 10-31-2009, 10:49 PM   #195
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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David Orange wrote:
It made me dizzy: not the power, but the very idea.
I know just what you mean.
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Old 10-31-2009, 10:53 PM   #196
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Robert John wrote: View Post
All I can say is that when he uses the skill, it allows him to move freakishly fast, be unpredictable, and the movement itself is just...unsettling. It's something best experienced rather than "talked about."
Upyu, man. You're freaking me out. Does he only do this 'trick' on halloween, or something?
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Old 11-02-2009, 05:57 PM   #197
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Ashe...waht do you see as the difference between intent and attention?
and et al.

i think that's all basically getting WAY off topic.

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Old 11-02-2009, 07:42 PM   #198
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

So your going to throw it out there and then not answer it? If it is off topic, then maybe you could start another thread?

The reason I mention it and believe it relevant as I have recently spent time with a few really good folks who mentioned intention as being very important to internal skills. If you are proposing a difference and it was salient enough to be brought up, I am definitely curious as to what is different about it.

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Old 11-02-2009, 07:56 PM   #199
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Ashe Higgs wrote: View Post
I see a lot of discussion about 'intent', which is not a word I would use in combination with ILC. Attention is our thing and it's a different monster...
I would have thought that the "I" (the old Wade-Giles way of writing "yi" [in the current Pinyin system]) would be something to consider in "I Liq Chuan". "I" or "yi" means "intent", for all practical purposes. The name translates roughly to "mind-intent-strength fighting system".

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-03-2009, 06:50 PM   #200
ashe
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
So your going to throw it out there and then not answer it? If it is off topic, then maybe you could start another thread?

The reason I mention it and believe it relevant as I have recently spent time with a few really good folks who mentioned intention as being very important to internal skills. If you are proposing a difference and it was salient enough to be brought up, I am definitely curious as to what is different about it.
sorry, i don't mean to be evasive about it, just that the topic here is supposed to be methods for developing internal power. certainly from our perspective, awareness plays a significant role in the development of the "internal" but it's not what everyone would normally think of in the sense of breath work and conditioning the ligaments and tendons, etc.

if a topic comes up that seems a better fit to discuss i'd be happy to join in.

just to clarify, the general sense of 意 (i or yi) in 意力拳 is more along the lines of "mental" as opposed to the more common use of yi as will or intent. so a rough translation is more along the lines of mental/physical martial art (as in the unification of), which is why we call ILC "the martial art of awareness".

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