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Old 10-28-2009, 11:13 AM   #126
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Seriously?
May I suggest the ignore button then?
LOL. Good idea!
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Old 10-28-2009, 11:22 AM   #127
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
LOL. Good idea!
... And God bless you ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-28-2009, 11:54 AM   #128
jss
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
In any case, Aunkai tanren consists of first training the frame--from there you move on and 'throw away the frame' (Ark's words), and my interpretation of that is that you start finding ways to train softer skills in solo tanren, paired exercises, and freestyle sparring/grappling.
I assume (wish I was more experienced ) that training the frame first and then train to become softer, will limit how soft your training can become. Unless you not only throw away the frame, but also the results you got from training it. So basically you have to start from scratch (although you'll have a lot more knowledge than someone who hasn't trained their frame first.).
What do you think?
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Old 10-28-2009, 11:55 AM   #129
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Hi David,
That is very interesting, about choritsu.

Your post reminded me of something I saw. On teh internet I came across the concept that Ark was teaching about 'making the body jealous' of itself. Have you heard that? Can you say anything about it? Here's a thought I had: You have the two elements you mention (ground and 'heaven'/bodyweight)..and the tuning between the two. Could the 'making the body jealous' comment refer to the ability to constantly 'pull' between the two elements/sources *in the body* to achieve the razor's edge of balance between them? A dynamic steady-state, if you will. You know, make each side 'jealous' of the other..? Keeping the system 'on' and 'loaded'...so if you 'pluck' the 'string' it will "ring", as you say. Well..that's just how I took it, anyway.

Thanks for your post.
Josh
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:01 PM   #130
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Since my teacher was uchi deshi to Mifune, I got a lot more judo experience than I wanted or expected when I trained in his aikido. I definitely believe that aikido in general is much improved by judo experience. If nothing else, it gives a more realistic sense of what a real struggle a fight can be. And it lets the learner "lose" a lot. I think part of the weakness of aikido is that we never "lose" (in most aikido I've experienced) and so the teachers and senior people can get an over-inflated sense of their own abilities to avoid being caught in a real struggle. They tend to think they can't get into that kind of thing. It's good to find out early and not forget.

As for kuzushi, I think Mifune is a great example for what he "doesn't" do to achieve it. It's such a pleasure to watch him go and flip these huge guys and it's hard to see where he does anything until it's just suddenly done and uke is on the floor.

If we can say that judo uses internal skills (and I'll say some does, some doesn't), I think it must be in maintaining correct "frame" until uke makes a slight mistake, then being in shape, form and position to enter tsukuri with only a small movement. In other words, let him step into the spot and you just remain in good organization to capitalize on that. In particular, I worked a lot on the four major sweeps--osoto gari, ko soto gari, o uchi gari and ko uchi gari--looking for the moment where my simply being upright and relaxed would end up with me "fitted in" perfectly to his body to simply perform the reaps.

I think that level of work still amounted to external form, but it was moving more toward internal than anything I'd done prior to that. And I do think that a lot of what Mifune did was just that. Some guy supposedly said, "I'm younger, stronger, bigger and faster than you, so why do you always beat me?" and Mifune just said, "You take two steps, I take one." Which is what I was trying to accomplish with my foot-sweep methods.

As for Aunkai, lately, I'm thinking a lot about my few conversations with Ark in Atlanta, where he explained that his method was "choritsu" or "tuning" the body. Now I think of that (as he's sometimes said) as being like "tuning" a piano string. Or maybe a harp string. He tunes the body between heaven and earth and his technique is all about his own body's adjustment to energy that comes upon him from outside. If you touch him, you pluck that tuned harp string and you get the "ring" back into yourself as his body does whatever it needs to do to maintain its tuning between earth and sky. Of course, the harder you strike or pluck a harp string, the louder and more powerful the feedback will be.

I think it cannot be overemphasized that "internal" refers to the techniques happening within one's own body--not outside or between tori and uke. It happens inside "tori" and the effect on uke is because he is touching tori while tori makes the adjustment within himself.

And that is where I saw the big difference between what Endo showed in that clip on Atari and what Ark showed in the clip on Nyu Ryoku.

Really fascinating.

Best to all.

David
Hi David,

Nice post. I doubt it's just 'maintaining' frame. I myself am a small guy, and whenever I maintain 'frame', it doesn't lead me to throws. It's mostly just a stalemate, especially with strong guys (not necessarily guys with strong frame). Mifune himself is probably my size, with a slighter build, but was throwing big dudes with a lot of experience in Judo (so they most likely had frame). Something else was going on.

But then again, I have no experience in Judo, and from what I understand, those foot-sweeps are deadly dangerous. I never learned how to use those, so maybe Mifune was 'maintaining' frame, had basic jin/aiki skills, but use those footsweeps majorly.

About your comments on Aunkai:

Yeah, Ark is all about creating a body that is the most adaptable. A body that thinks on its own in a fight. That's why, when you see in his demonstrations, you see his body looking all 'wavy' or you see a lot of twisting/torquing, because this is how things naturally react to incoming energy. A flag for instance creates waves when it's windy, but ONLY if the flag has that 'soft' quality to it. If it was stiff, you wouldn't see the waves.

There are a lot of things I don't understand that Ark talks about it. For instance, he talks about go-ju a lot and how he came make his body hard on the outside and soft on the inside, and vice versa. NO CLUE how he does this. Also, I'm also munching on the idea of a dragon back, which one can develop through shintaijiku. And also torque from spear work.

Focussing on 'softness' or 'aiki skills' at this stage of my training is for me to figure out the implications of training torque, goju, the dragon back, etc. Or perhaps it may lead me to another direction that might not include those skills. In any case, I'm having greate fun exploring .
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:28 PM   #131
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
I assume (wish I was more experienced ) that training the frame first and then train to become softer, will limit how soft your training can become. Unless you not only throw away the frame, but also the results you got from training it. So basically you have to start from scratch (although you'll have a lot more knowledge than someone who hasn't trained their frame first.).
What do you think?
Hi Joep,

I don't think Ark prefers one to the other. He says that you must have elements of both hard and soft. He's all about using (and mixing) both to create an efficient body that can adapt to any kind of attacks.

I don't know exactly why the frame is prioritized before softness technically, but I accept what Ark has to teach about that (not only his counsel but also Sagawa's, who also prioritized the frame--only he didn't call it the frame and didn't speak of it as clearly as Ark does).

But in my opinion, you have to know what hardness (or strength, or stability) and be acquainted with before you know what softness is. I've been doing the 'hard' thing these past 2 years, maintaining my frame and using my frame's strength to impose my will on others. It hasn't gotten me far--always leads to a stalemate or I end up getting pwned by someone who weighs more than me and has a stronger frame. I'm focussing now on softer skills and you're right, it is hard to 'throw away the frame'. Sometimes, when I do agete, I still get the feeling to 'push' up. I plan to train with some guys who train mainly in agete (I don't livein Tokyo to train regularly with Ark and crew), so I hope to familiarize softness with these guys' methods and to incorporate that into my tanren. Although I've been trying to incorporate it (initiating movement from tilting the pelvis and stretching the lower back), it still feels like I'm doing 'hard' conditioning because it's so frigging painful and more taxing now. Probably because I'm trying to 'stretch' the body suit in deep stances and with my limbs being stretched out. Softness should ideally be effortless in practise but because the conditioning process makes it seem likt I'm not training 'softness' lol.
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:32 PM   #132
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Hi David,

Nice post. I doubt it's just 'maintaining' frame. I myself am a small guy, and whenever I maintain 'frame', it doesn't lead me to throws. It's mostly just a stalemate, especially with strong guys (not necessarily guys with strong frame).

Focussing on 'softness' or 'aiki skills' at this stage of my training is for me to figure out the implications of training torque, goju, the dragon back, etc. Or perhaps it may lead me to another direction that might not include those skills. In any case, I'm having greate fun exploring .
I think that just maintaining frame and trying to do anything with it has been a huge struggle for me. Stalemate is the word..

Working to find a way to have a "softened" and connected practice and effect another person.

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:40 PM   #133
MM
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

In regards to Mifune and IP, I'd suggest this thread:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.p...st=0&sk=t&sd=a

In regards to Judo having IP overall, I'd suggest reading Ellis Amdur's Hidden in Plain Sight.

Back to the topic at hand ...
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:57 PM   #134
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Since my teacher was uchi deshi to Mifune, ... As for kuzushi, I think Mifune is a great example for what he "doesn't" do to achieve it.
I find it fascinating to watch him when the big guys have actually lifted him off the floor and he just drapes and swings around behind them -- or counter-swings his effective moment -- feet entirely off the floor, and they still can't throw him. The reason in my terms is actually quite simple (but not at all easy) He has completed owned the tension component of their common shear system such that his opponent is, literally, stuck in place (i.e. --committed to the compression component, while Mifune is just hanging or swinging there -- he cannot be thrown because his uke cannot extend his structure to actuate it. Watch those again, they are very instructive -- he is not passive at all, but always keeping on a certain line and swing as the guy tries to bring some leverage to throw, and cannot do it -- very much related to a child pumping a swing. As to the difference between what Endo is doing and what Ark is doing -- they are closer to ends of a spectrum -- one relatively "slack" in action and and one relatively "taut" in action -- but Mifune actually demonstrates applications of both taut and slack action in those examples I just mentioned in this (between 0:20-0:60).

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David Orange wrote: View Post
As for Aunkai, lately, I'm thinking a lot about my few conversations with Ark in Atlanta, where he explained that his method was "choritsu" or "tuning" the body. Now I think of that (as he's sometimes said) as being like "tuning" a piano string. Or maybe a harp string. He tunes the body between heaven and earth and his technique is all about his own body's adjustment to energy that comes upon him from outside. If you touch him, you pluck that tuned harp string and you get the "ring" back into yourself as his body does whatever it needs to do to maintain its tuning between earth and sky. Of course, the harder you strike or pluck a harp string, the louder and more powerful the feedback will be.
And you wonder why I keep chiming in -- when you keep relating stuff like structural harmonics and the application of resonance

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David Orange wrote: View Post
I think it cannot be overemphasized that "internal" refers to the techniques happening within one's own body--not outside or between tori and uke. It happens inside "tori" and the effect on uke is because he is touching tori while tori makes the adjustment within himself.
Whereas I see that the movement illustrated by Endo in making his uke part of one structural system (though agreeing that his uke is relatively compliant for the demonstration) and the pre-stress deployment by Ark in making his opponent part of his structural system as he alters it are completely of a piece. Taut structure and slack structure obey the same laws -- when applied in this way -- and I fully acknowledge there are many, many things that are not this way.

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David Orange wrote: View Post
And that is where I saw the big difference between what Endo showed in that clip on Atari and what Ark showed in the clip on Nyu Ryoku.
... and that I comprehend, and regularly show. But despite the differences you do see -- they are inherently related, in as profound a way as Mifune's slack/taut "drapery-hanging"/"counter-swinging" (here between 1:33-1:50) are also related. The most exquisite one is at 2:53- 2:57.

I'll bet you missed it, but Mifune just so happens to have ball on the mat as a demonstration aid when showing those precise examples. (at 1:33-1:50) There is a reason for that. Others could tell you that also -- in only slightly variant terms.

FWIW, another distinction is that Mifune (like Shioda, notably) prefers keeping on his toes in randori and likes using the tension shear component better. Ark, on the other hand, is using the compression shear component more in the clip above -- and making his opponent committed to the tension component.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-28-2009, 01:06 PM   #135
David Orange
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
I doubt it's just 'maintaining' frame. I myself am a small guy, and whenever I maintain 'frame', it doesn't lead me to throws. It's mostly just a stalemate, especially with strong guys (not necessarily guys with strong frame).
Well, they say Mifune was "the epitome of judo technique," so you not only have to have good frame, but excellent comprehension of judo technique and finesse at recognizing when the partner is walking into position for you to apply a given technique--instantly recognizing which technique he's walked into and giving him that technique without having to reorganize the body before moving. So that's what I mean by "frame" and "relaxation"--undisturbed posture and mental clarity. Please don't misinterpret my comments to get the idea that I can do that, myself. I just began to sense it and try to develop it. But I do think that's the whole essence of judo--keep your balance and keep your cool and match the technique to the opponent's movement without interfering with him in any way. As they said fighting Kano was like wrestling an empty jacket.

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
But then again, I have no experience in Judo, and from what I understand, those foot-sweeps are deadly dangerous. I never learned how to use those, so maybe Mifune was 'maintaining' frame, had basic jin/aiki skills, but use those footsweeps majorly.
He had full command of every technique in the judo repertoire and he was just completely adept at matching his technique to the other guy's movement. Mochizuki Sensei said that Mifune was "comparable" to Ueshiba in his ability to throw at will and on contact. So I think all his skills were of the higher degree in general.

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Yeah, Ark is all about creating a body that is the most adaptable. A body that thinks on its own in a fight. That's why, when you see in his demonstrations, you see his body looking all 'wavy' or you see a lot of twisting/torquing, because this is how things naturally react to incoming energy. A flag for instance creates waves when it's windy, but ONLY if the flag has that 'soft' quality to it. If it was stiff, you wouldn't see the waves.
It's interesting that Mochizuki Sensei's son, Hiroo, now world leader of yoseikan arts, bases everything on "wave motion" but I didn't get anything like the feel from him that I got from Ark. Not saying Hiroo Sensei doesn't have it, but what I felt from him was much more like standard aikido while working with Ark was like...grabbing a dragon.

As for the body that thinks on its own, I sometimes find my body reacting (in daily life) in a way it didn't do before and I realize, "Hey, that was like Ark does...." but I haven't learned to apply it in a "fighting" situation as yet. But the body self-correcting with a spontaneous full-body response can be pretty startling.

Did you see the early question about making the body "jealous of itself"? I hadn't heard that before. Any ideas on that?

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 10-28-2009, 01:15 PM   #136
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Working to find a way to have a "softened" and connected practice and effect another person.
Aiki in-yo ho = Yin Yang method, right?

What about these yin-yang pairs to consider:
Not just yin//yang = heaven//earth forces or tensions as written in posts above...
but
yin + yang = muscle/SpiritEffortIntentSystem + kokyu structure system.
or in other words:
yin // yang = 'real qi' // 'full banana jin'

Balance point between these two systems.. playing back and forth across the boundary
between the two. But need to have access to them *in the body*...and that necessitates the changed body. The yin being especially capable of the soft, subtle side. The yang being the hard kokyu structure side. My words, my ideas.. ..my mistakes. sorry. ; ) ..don't know. .. typing out loud again. Hope it means something. Josh
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Old 10-28-2009, 01:29 PM   #137
ChrisMoses
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
Working to find a way to have a "softened" and connected practice and effect another person.
or more to the point, affect Fritz...

Chris Moses
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Old 10-28-2009, 01:39 PM   #138
MM
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
I think that just maintaining frame and trying to do anything with it has been a huge struggle for me. Stalemate is the word..
Uh, yeah, I can resemble that remark. Keeping structure and intent while moving is tough. Keeping both while moving and under some load is even harder.

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
Working to find a way to have a "softened" and connected practice and effect another person.
Haven't a clue how you guys work or train. Saw the vid and that's about it.

So, this is just a toss-it-out-there post. If you're beyond it, ignore me.

We work with "stretching" the spine. Like a hook on your head pulling your spine upwards while a weight between your legs pulling the spine downwards. So, lately when working paired practice and running into uke either grounding or using aiki, we've found that if we, as tori/nage, send intent even further upwards and downwards, that it overcomes uke's use of ground or aiki. Provided uke doesn't do the same thing. Course, all other things apply, too, like keeping structure, other intents, etc. And it isn't easy. Especially since my chest goes upwards when I send intent upwards. *sigh* Not relaxing enough.

Mark
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Old 10-28-2009, 06:34 PM   #139
Milty66
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Re: Internal power / aiki discussions

Dan,

Does this wisdom apply to students that are relatively new (< dan grade) to Aikido or DR or MA?
Is it beneficial for a student to seek out teachers with IP/Aiki skills without the perspective of more years of experience in his/her MA?

Cheers!
-M
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Old 10-28-2009, 07:41 PM   #140
MM
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Re: Internal power / aiki discussions

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Milton Cadogan wrote: View Post
Dan,

Does this wisdom apply to students that are relatively new (< dan grade) to Aikido or DR or MA?
Is it beneficial for a student to seek out teachers with IP/Aiki skills without the perspective of more years of experience in his/her MA?

Cheers!
-M
Yes. Anyone from any experience. Those that I know that are training IT come from many various martial art backgrounds and various years of experience, from none to a lot.
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:04 PM   #141
Upyu
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Re: Internal power / aiki discussions

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Milton Cadogan wrote: View Post
Dan,

Does this wisdom apply to students that are relatively new (< dan grade) to Aikido or DR or MA?
Is it beneficial for a student to seek out teachers with IP/Aiki skills without the perspective of more years of experience in his/her MA?

Cheers!
-M
I'd say that students that are relatively new have an advantage.

Assuming you're after IP/Aiki, but you spend x years in an art without learning these skills, you can't help but patterning and conditioning your body physically to use your body in a way which conflicts with the way that it is used in IP/Aiki. (This is coming from my exp as well )

What this means is that, if you're a rote beginner, you have less to "undo" and "unlearn" (please no starwars/yoda cracks) in the body, and can focus directly on simply patterning/conditioning your body in a manner that is more conducive to IP/Aiki.

People with x years will have muscle memory habits to undo...which can be a pain in the rear. I've got no doubt there's a lot of guys out there that've made some progress that would not quibble with me.

So now, as the beginning student gains a foothold in IP/Aiki, they're now in a position to more clearly see how the curriculum of art Y works in terms IP/Aiki.
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:15 PM   #142
Milty66
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Re: Internal power / aiki discussions

Thanks, this is encouraging!

Cheers!
M
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:21 PM   #143
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Internal power / aiki discussions

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Robert John wrote: View Post
I'd say that students that are relatively new have an advantage.

Assuming you're after IP/Aiki, but you spend x years in an art without learning these skills, you can't help but patterning and conditioning your body physically to use your body in a way which conflicts with the way that it is used in IP/Aiki. (This is coming from my exp as well )

What this means is that, if you're a rote beginner, you have less to "undo" and "unlearn" (please no starwars/yoda cracks) in the body, and can focus directly on simply patterning/conditioning your body in a manner that is more conducive to IP/Aiki.

People with x years will have muscle memory habits to undo...which can be a pain in the rear. I've got no doubt there's a lot of guys out there that've made some progress that would not quibble with me.

So now, as the beginning student gains a foothold in IP/Aiki, they're now in a position to more clearly see how the curriculum of art Y works in terms IP/Aiki.
Your right of course.

Two things going on. Proprioceptively after years of training I think you have developed things that work for you so of course those are your natural responses and they have afforded you success.

Someone without experience is going to respond, maybe not appropriately at all, but it is still a response and maybe it is not undoing a habit that you learned from years of practice, but undoing in general from not knowing at all.

I tend to think that this is balanced out somewhat. The experienced guy has years of doing stuff that allows him to learn things quicker AND I have found that maybe there is not as much UNDOING from this area as they guy that has to learn from scratch has to learn alot more as he works through things.

That and the experienced guy probably understands methodology somewhat and knows that it will take time to invest in the process.

in short the experienced guy is wired to learn. Just like learning languages.

So, sounds like I don't agree with you so far right?

Well I think the real issue is not so much unlearning as it is the psychological process of having to invest in failure and letting go.

You have developed these habits and things of success and it is just scary to let go of them and have to invest in the ensuing failure that will come as you do this. Some of it is unconscious, but alot of it I think is simply the fact that you have acheived success with those things at a certain level and you don't want to let go.

So, the guy that comes in the door with no experience probably has a psychological advantage over the guy that has lots of experience in martial arts.

Of course, what do I know...this is just all thought and conjecture on my part and is not based on any scientific fact at all.

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Old 10-28-2009, 10:29 PM   #144
Upyu
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Re: Internal power / aiki discussions

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Well I think the real issue is not so much unlearning as it is the psychological process of having to invest in failure and letting go.
I definitely agree with this, and you summed it up pretty well. The largest bottleneck in a sense is the psychological aspect.

But, there is also a physical component that shouldn't be overlooked.
Take for instance Ark, even with his skill, he still comments on how he feels his early gymnastics training, especially doing iron crosses and the like, gets in the way of his own personal progress. He "knows" what he needs to do, but the muscles/tissue won't respond since they tend to respond in their "old" patterened ways.

This is all proprioceptive of course, but I'd lay money that there's some research out there on muscle/tissue patterning that supports this.

Anyways thought I'd toss that out there.
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Old 10-28-2009, 10:49 PM   #145
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Re: Internal power / aiki discussions

What Rob said!
I just got back from four hours of teaching in an MMA school. I am currently getting a couple of guys ready for their first sanctioned fights in MMA, they are working on this stuff, and have maintained an interest because I can get them to neutralize force and deliver power in a real manner. They will train with me for hours at a wack and have a good sense of their bodies.

That said, the people who have learned things at a faster rate (no not their overall skills level in it so far) are, in order;
An MMA teacher
A Daito ryu teacher
An Aikido teacher.
Why? MMA people will train their bodies in an intelligent manner without preconceived "traditional" unrelated baggage.
The Daito ryu teacher is not doing unrelated baggage just...well....doing more Daito ryu; just in a more highly refined manner.
The aikido teacher is not doing unrelated baggage either. He is doing...well....Daito ryu aiki; in a more highly refined manner than his aikido.

I'm not big on all of this talk of proprioception. Every time I leave someone to self-correct and "feel" they usually go back to what they were doing all their martial career. Proprioception will change and get more sophisticated and helpful as time goes on, and you start to teach yourself. It's a process.
I was just rolling with the guys, had to push to make a postion change and I felt my shoulder "fire", I shook my head for being an idiot... worked through it on the run, flipped him, and just kept going.
Whatcha gonna do?

There are ways to short circuit the "back to your old habits" routine and build new proprioception that is correct, but again that just goes to people who teach this stuff having their own individual methods.
Do I think everyone who talks about teaching internals are all the same both in knowledge, skill level, and actual use in the martial arts?
No. I do not.
Do I think all of the teaching methods are the same?
No, I do not.
Do I think the people who do this have all the same end goals?
No I do not.
Do I think all teachers of this can actually teach it well?
No I do not.
I'll leave it up to the folks in the community to decide what best suits them and who they want to train with. It's the only thing we can do.

I think IP/Aiki is the finest skill set available in all of the martial arts-bar none, and it fits into any art traditional or modern, but no one should feel they can't learn it.
I'm no one special. I mean, if I can do it...anyone can do it. It's just a matter of time-in and getting up off the couch whenever you can.
Good luck in your search
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-28-2009 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 10-28-2009, 11:31 PM   #146
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Internal power / aiki discussions

Hi Dan,
I have a few general questions about Internal Power / aiki, and something that relates to the end of your post..
Why to study it? Seriously. I mean that honestly. Why is it the finest skill set? Fighting? Is there anything else? It is hard to think through knowing that the entire journey changes you.
Quote:
DH: wrote:
Because of the high level nature of good jujutsu people confuse it with aiki.
Is it easier to get to `good high level jujutsu` or `good level of aiki`?
If you had to invest into only one; why pick which? Which is more reasonable? Which does the body, mind and spirit more value? It is said `Aiki makes your body stronger for old age` .. is that right? I am interested in hearing anyone's 'take' on it...
Is there anything particularly different in pursuing aiki in terms of risks or dangers over and above those faced by pursuing the 'good jujutsu' path? Specific cautions or admonishments, say?
Thanks a lot.
Best,
Josh
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Old 10-28-2009, 11:51 PM   #147
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, they say Mifune was "the epitome of judo technique," so you not only have to have good frame, but excellent comprehension of judo technique and finesse at recognizing when the partner is walking into position for you to apply a given technique--instantly recognizing which technique he's walked into and giving him that technique without having to reorganize the body before moving. So that's what I mean by "frame" and "relaxation"--undisturbed posture and mental clarity. Please don't misinterpret my comments to get the idea that I can do that, myself. I just began to sense it and try to develop it. But I do think that's the whole essence of judo--keep your balance and keep your cool and match the technique to the opponent's movement without interfering with him in any way. As they said fighting Kano was like wrestling an empty jacket.

He had full command of every technique in the judo repertoire and he was just completely adept at matching his technique to the other guy's movement. Mochizuki Sensei said that Mifune was "comparable" to Ueshiba in his ability to throw at will and on contact. So I think all his skills were of the higher degree in general.

It's interesting that Mochizuki Sensei's son, Hiroo, now world leader of yoseikan arts, bases everything on "wave motion" but I didn't get anything like the feel from him that I got from Ark. Not saying Hiroo Sensei doesn't have it, but what I felt from him was much more like standard aikido while working with Ark was like...grabbing a dragon.

As for the body that thinks on its own, I sometimes find my body reacting (in daily life) in a way it didn't do before and I realize, "Hey, that was like Ark does...." but I haven't learned to apply it in a "fighting" situation as yet. But the body self-correcting with a spontaneous full-body response can be pretty startling.

Did you see the early question about making the body "jealous of itself"? I hadn't heard that before. Any ideas on that?

Thanks.

David
Hi David,

Thanks for your comments. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the suggestion that only a guy like Mifune can have godly timing, relaxation, and intuition. I don't like to talk about "this genius" or "that genius", because by doing so, we essentially distance away from the skills and "art" they expressed. All this considered, I believe Mifune's skill, whatever it is--external or internal, can be learned by whoever. He was just in the perfect position to learn it--he was at the right place, at the right time, with the right teacher, and with the right mind and heart. It is for this reason that I find Sagawa an unpleasant fella. Like Mifune, "uncontrolled" factors like him meeting Takeda through his dad, the fact that he was able to observe Takeda in every day life and essentially train with him every day, his mental aptitude,etc. set him up for the skills he had. And dude has the gall and arrogance to call people stupid, weak, or whatever even if the person he's calling is seeking truth in the form of martial arts? Whatever man.

In any case, whatever skill MIfune had, I want to know it, and would like to train it. When people will say "he just practised judo really hard", I`d ignore that statement, nod my head, and then move on to a guy like Ueshiba or Takeda, whose skills are known largely as "internal" and observe their paths and perhaps their own training regimes to replicate and gain the skills they had. We will never know whether Mifune had "internal" skill or not, but from the looks of it, he had. "matching" technique to movement suggests that he felt the balance points of his opponent and had extraordinary, and trained "listening" skills, which I think are gained through internal dynamics.

About Ark and "wave motion".

I don't much about Yoseikan training methods, but I think I have an idea of how Ark trains it. He does through opening and closing the front, and for Xingyi guys, this is done through squatting monkey. For the aiki guys, this is done through agete, where you close your front, expand lower back, to "suck" the guy in, and raise the arms to take the opponent's balance. I find Ark's system fascinating because focussing 100% on your body and increasing its range of motion will allow your body to respond appropriately to the incoming energy. Ark's deal is that we have to increase first the body's capabilities and its potential for movement, because no matter how much you want to be like "WATAH" (rip Bruce), your body has to be "ready". Insofar as this is what we want to develop, Aunkai I think is a complete system because it deals with all ranges of motions: you can see torque, aiki type of energy work, and (recently I noticed at least) entering work (through shintaijiku).

I have never heard of the comment about the "body benig jealous of itself".

Jeremy Hulley said "I think that just maintaining frame and trying to do anything with it has been a huge struggle for me. Stalemate is the word..

Working to find a way to have a 'softened' and connected practice and effect another person.".

It is good that you have that awareness. Too many people are caught up with "frame". It makes standing grappling practise much more challenging because you essentially have to weaken your frame (or depend less on your frame) on guys with frame. You"ll get dumped on your ass if you try your premature, soft skills on strong, balanced, agile guys or you will force yourself to depend more on your frame so you can "not lose". Internal arts involves a lot of "investing in loss" I think. So for me, best way to train soft skills is agete, push out, push hands or any other paired exercises like that. That way you familiarize yourself with "soft" motions. Learning it exclusively under heavy pressure right away is simply stupid. You'll never learn soft skills that way. You'd have to do it through paired practise with mild resistance (as you see in agete, push out, etc.). Also learning soft skills without frame as I said before will get you destroyed in a fight I think. Your body has to learn how to be balanced under pressure. Your body needs to be properly aligned/balanced/stable before you can make aiki appear, so when a heavy, strong guy tries to take you down, you won't be able to affect aiki on him because your body integrity will be compromised.
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Old 10-28-2009, 11:53 PM   #148
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
..
There are a lot of things I don't understand that Ark talks about it. For instance, he talks about go-ju a lot and how he came make his body hard on the outside and soft on the inside, and vice versa. NO CLUE how he does this. Also, I'm also munching on the idea of a dragon back, which one can develop through shintaijiku. And also torque from spear work.

Focussing on 'softness' or 'aiki skills' at this stage of my training is for me to figure out the implications of training torque, goju, the dragon back, etc. ....
Hi Lorel,
That was a great post. Any chance you could say a bit more about some of that? For instance; what is go-ju... and what is meant by a dragon back?

In regards to the hard on the outside and soft on the inside issue (and vice versa): I think this is the 'separation' of another yin//yang set; where one considers the outer body (yang) and the inner body (yin) separately.. The yin body is the inside; tightly coupled to the dantien region...which is 'highly mobile' all the while the external torso and leg muscles are hard. This reminds me.. Dan once talked about the two yamabiko ('way of the mountain echo'); here< ... i think this points to the two separate modes of being `on`. Taking either of these 'modes' to an extreme could maybe...loosely map to what you were referring to. random thoughts, my friend.
Josh
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Old 10-29-2009, 12:21 AM   #149
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Hi Lorel,
That was a great post. Any chance you could say a bit more about some of that? For instance; what is go-ju... and what is meant by a dragon back?

In regards to the hard on the outside and soft on the inside issue (and vice versa): I think this is the 'separation' of another yin//yang set; where one considers the outer body (yang) and the inner body (yin) separately.. The yin body is the inside; tightly coupled to the dantien region...which is 'highly mobile' all the while the external torso and leg muscles are hard. This reminds me.. Dan once talked about the two yamabiko ('way of the mountain echo'); here< ... i think this points to the two separate modes of being `on`. Taking either of these 'modes' to an extreme could maybe...loosely map to what you were referring to. random thoughts, my friend.
Josh
Hi Josh,

I have no idea about goju. It's still an alien concept to me as far as how to develop it or how it is applicable in combat. I don't want to think about it too hard, just let it marinate in mind and come to me as my training progresses. Basically goju is when you "hollow" out the insides, but keep the outside "hard". It is also the ability to make the inside "full", while you keep the outside "light". The former gives you a sense of lightness, and will give you the ability to "ghost" on people. The latter probably involves you making your body lines more "taut" and "hard", giving you much more power in your strikes. I'm not too sure though.

As far as the dragon back is concerned, this is probably trained through shintaijiku and now recently through body-axis training where you keep the "cross" in tact. I've been playing with this lately, and been trying to move the arms not with my arms but initiating movement with the expanded lower back. When you pull down with the butt, or tilt the pelvis (you can achieve this through seiza ki-breathing) this stretches the back suit, giving you leverage to move the arms with the back suit (in the lower back area) with minimal movement. Moving the arms with "arm" intent, you risk moving the arms independently and risk compromising the cross and as a consequence the whole body movement. It's also energy inefficient. If you trained the back suit (and thus the lower back) to a high degree, it can act as a "puppeteer" of sorts, using this area to control the strings (the suit) that connect to the arms and then move the arms to do whatever it needs to do (lift, strike, pull down, etc.) without compromising the cross. Much more energy efficient and it makes your strikes less telegraphed. Someone who has trained this to a high degree will never tilt his body or move his shoulders for a punch in an obvious way. It'll be like an unseen missile suddenly hitting you. It's highly-focussed intent work, and it is painful as hell because to really feel it, you have go into deep stances and from there move from the lower back. There is ALOT of body-stretching involved. But once you finish say a shintajiku work out with this for 15 mins, you really feel some "tingling" sensation under the skin. I think that "sensation" is the fascia and it is what we need to work out.
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Old 10-29-2009, 05:13 AM   #150
Rennis Buchner
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Hi Josh,

I have no idea about goju. It's still an alien concept to me as far as how to develop it or how it is applicable in combat. I don't want to think about it too hard, just let it marinate in mind and come to me as my training progresses. Basically goju is when you "hollow" out the insides, but keep the outside "hard".
While I have no clue about how Akuzawa explains the concept, it is a concept I have been wrestling with for quite awhile now. Like many my initial ideas were over simplified and miss understood concepts from Goju-ryu karate, but the concept was also a key point in the sword of swordsmanship I am a member of which got me thinking about the concept much more. Like you have trouble really "getting" it, but my own personal impression (this week) is that it can be an inside hard outside soft, or the reverse type of thing. I personally have an easier time wrapping my head around the inside hard and outside soft concept physically than the opposite, which gels both with how Akuzawa felt the times I did get to touch him, as well as a couple of other people whom I have laid hands on over the year that seemed to have something "more than the norm". Actually just typing this has some gotten ideas brewing in my head I want to go ponder for a bit.

Rennis
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