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Old 11-22-2009, 09:29 AM   #326
Rob Watson
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
The EMG profile allows one to identify neural, muscular and CT involvement whilst correlating it against force plate readings (never perfectly, but close enough to be able to say 'ok, you need more of X...whereas you need more of Y')
I would consider sticking needle probes into the body exotic methods.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-22-2009, 09:39 AM   #327
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
See the chopstick anecdote I just posted on the "changed body" thread.

I'm reluctant to get to far off into some of these tangential discussions because no background has been established and if people are really curious they'll do a bit more research on their own. I've been trying over the last few years to show what I know (which is admittedly limited) to a reasonable number of people and some of those people are increasing their abilities fairly rapidly. And some of them now have fairly broad-spectrum knowledge, well beyond anything being discussed on AikiWeb.... they'll be the ones to ask questions to, soon enough. If you want some of this information that requires almost a show-and-tell venue, you'll need to get out and meet some of these people and get involved in the discussions and studies and practice.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
I'm not disputing there is amazing stuff to be had in the pursuit of IT.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
He had "changed" his body all over like this by years of doing a certain type of neigong.
Did he say this is because the neigongs change the fascia? I suspect there is more to the neigong than repeatedly ripping through chopsticks until one gets it right!

If knowledge of the fascia does not help in ones IT then why bring it up?

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-22-2009, 11:10 AM   #328
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Hi Robert,
Just a few thoughts:

it's all tissue.

even in naming muscles we give up at some point differentiating different 'structures' and just call it 'smooth muscle'.

it's all tissue; muscles...fascia...when specifically indicating you take them together you refer to myofascia. taking it 'apart' and talking about muscle, then fascia, bone, tendon, ligament. If you are hinted at towards changing the body; muscle being a big part of it; and fascia in turn being a big part of muscle...what's the problem in assuming that, for the time being? (i.e. suspect/subject to reevaluation later..but making it axiomatic at this point?)
all tissue. The bone is a tissue. I just saw a friends presentation at school referring to a paper discussing how bone grows stronger along the specific axis that the body needs it to. This i interpret to refer to the ground path going thru the bone. The point being that the specific vector which bears the weight gets preferentially 'treated' by the body. In that paper it also showed the anisotropic strength #'s for bone going thru different axes and even parallel but off-the-central longitudingal axis (i.e. in femur/etc).
(The following may not be true; but is a point of view:) As the bone is an 'extreme' kind of a living tissue (i.e. no voluntary effort lets you 'bend it', completely inflexible; and muscle is another kind of extreme tissue (i.e. completely responsive to voluntary (and involuntary) effort/intent and completely flexible...maybe fascia is somewhere in the middle of the road. I always try to remember; myofascia is how it it discussed in the 'west' and by osteopaths. *That* is the fundamental unit.
Anyhow; remember this post<:? What about that for a plausibility argument? Fascia can change; it can provide structural reinforcement; therefore it stands to reason it is plausible that this may be harnessed to change the body for the powers of positive development. I am sure there are better, more and more specific reasons to quote 'fascia'..but at this point the pragmatic person in me yields to the fact that (if I understand correctly:) Dan, Rob and Mike all think that that's involved. I know scientifically that is weak; but that is not the standard here; and no one is selling anything. It is about the current state of understanding. Like Bob pointed out; it is a master's thesis waiting to be explored. We will see it in our lifetimes I think.
Good Luck, sorry for the interruption (/ OT)
Josh
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Old 11-22-2009, 11:18 AM   #329
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

shoot; I meant to add a p.s.

Mike; thanks for your answer in the other thread. It is really interesting. I always feel like i'm pulling teeth a little when I ask specific points so I won't burden you or anyone with more questions; but if you feel moved to write more on any of those points; just know that it is very interesting and surprisingly often...useful. (in some way). For instance; just practicing windings in the universal exercise.... is that an 'internal power development method'? It seems analogous/similar to the winding exercise Ashe showed? I have been playing with that for some time; and i feel sensitivity and control increasing up along the chain. fwiw.
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Old 11-22-2009, 11:58 AM   #330
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

dang!
that came out wrong.
i always feel like i'm pulling teeth when i ask specific questions *of anybody* (not just you). I usually feel like the follow up questions are somewhat automatic and obvious ... and that people have gone as far as they wanted to (deliberately). Anyhow; i hope you understand that I don't want to be rude in my repeated asking towards you, Mike, or anyone in general. I choose to risk it sometimes because .. hey ... you never know. For instance Lorel's posts were great...and surprising..and I was glad I asked in that case.

Ok... enough!
Josh
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:31 PM   #331
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
I would consider sticking needle probes into the body exotic methods.


*Surface* electrodes, Robert.

Anyway, you wanted a 'how'...so there you go. Ponder the literature, design the protocol, get the subjects....you should have the data you want in a year or three.

Or you could just...I dunno...be empirical about it. I mean, does the exact histology really matter...or can we focus on how to whack the bejesus out someone?

If all the classic sources says 'do this, because'...and guys in the know (who can evidence these skills) say 'yeah, do that, because'....maybe I'll save myself some time not reinventing the wheel

Last edited by bob_stra : 11-22-2009 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:34 PM   #332
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
The bone is a tissue. I just saw a friends presentation at school referring to a paper discussing how bone grows stronger along the specific axis that the body needs it to.
Hi Josh,
This is a good example. One can use xrays to interrogate the bones and note how they respondsto specific training. One can also simply poke ones fingers into the flesh and directly feel the bones and note changes. Also one can flex the bones (a partner helps here) and note changes in that flexibility to indicate actual changes in the bones density or other properties.

In this way simple means to monitor the various properties of the bone can be used as indications of progress in specific training to guide ones activities. If one internal power development methods rely on developing the bones there is a direct method to verify progress by inspecting the bones. In addition one gets feedback in the application (which is the typical mode of feedback but this requires no knowledge of the changing bone state).

One is certainly able to guage progess by the specific functional means through application and does not need to know anything about bones or connective tissues.

That has been my point (directly on topic by the way) that unless there are specific ways to directly access the properties of the connective tissues one is simply left to rely on the functional aspects through application (the master says 'gee, your fajing is really coming along' as opposed to the connective tissue scientist says 'gee, these readings on the golgi tendon organs are really moving off the chart').

As has been said before when the eastern ways and western ways come together we get the best of both worlds.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:41 PM   #333
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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*Surface* electrodes, Robert.

Anyway, you wanted a 'how'...so there you go. Ponder the literature, design the protocol, get the subjects....you should have the data you want in a year or three.

Or you could just...I dunno...be empirical about it.
Needles, surface electrode, SQUIDS, etc hooked up to fancy electronic monitors needing expert interpretation of the signals is still exotic means in my book.

If the transducer picks up signal from the 'wrong' tissue source then it does not help much - that is why the needle electrodes are stick directly into the muscle fibers under investigation. Of course more advanced methods using SQUIDS and FFT help isolate the complex signals so fast twitch and slow twitch (for example) responses can be isolated. Still pretty exotic means unless ones does IT strapped into such gear. Might not be such a bad idea ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-22-2009, 12:47 PM   #334
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
If all the classic sources says 'do this, because'...and guys in the know (who can evidence these skills) say 'yeah, do that, because'....maybe I'll save myself some time not reinventing the wheel
If the wheel is square then maybe some reinventing is called for despite what all the venerable masters have to say about the matter.

Some may say 'yeah, that is one way to do it but here is a much better way' and out comes the round wheel and then only those from the preservation society prefer the square wheel 'just because that is the tradition'.

It really comes down to exactly what follows 'because ...' and not just because.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-22-2009, 01:03 PM   #335
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Needles, surface electrode, SQUIDS, etc hooked up to fancy electronic monitors needing expert interpretation of the signals is still exotic means in my book.
Yeah, but so what? Your 'we can use X-rays' comment to Josh has the same issue (meanwhile - 'poking into bones to test their density' for you and SQUIDS for me? Hmmm)

:shrugs:

More to the point: review the literature and you'll see that surface electrodes are (generally) used for this stuff - with good reason. Not fine needle etc. So 'invasive' is out.

My comment is - the 'how' and the 'why' are out there...if one were so inclined to adapt it to this purpose (testing IS specific adaptations).

Quote:
Some may say 'yeah, that is one way to do it but here is a much better way' and out comes the round wheel and then only those from the preservation society prefer the square wheel 'just because that is the tradition'.

It really comes down to exactly what follows 'because ...' and not just because.
Sorry, I came into this thread pretty much at your comment re: testing. Maybe I missed the back story, so am not getting the disconnect

I'm presuming you get the logic of how CT is an augment to power and why developing the CT elements would be important?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaVXh...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g

Last edited by bob_stra : 11-22-2009 at 01:11 PM. Reason: added youtubes
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Old 11-22-2009, 03:03 PM   #336
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
If knowledge of the fascia does not help in ones IT then why bring it up?
"Knowledge of the fascia" wasn't brought up by me as a point. "Fascia" was mentioned as a comment/statement. If you want to pursue the topic in depth, I encourage you to do so.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-22-2009, 04:17 PM   #337
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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It might be worth your time to read "Energy Medicine" by James L. Oschman. As Cheuk Fong mentions, there is a "field effect", meaning something in the electromagnetic spectrum, not specifically a magnetic field. I agree; there's something like that. Oschman's book gives notes and references on measurements, experiments, etc., about these effects as they have been studied in the West for, what, around a 100 years. He also discusses the relationship of these effects to the fascial tissues of the body.

Traditionally, as someone's "qi" skills (in the I.S. area) increase, the related fascia tissues increase in development, etc., so it would be reasonable to expect some growth of the "magnetic feeling" effect, and in fact many traditional teachers all for that in evaluating someone's progress. Is it something other than a noticeable phenomenon? I personally don't think you can meditate on it and become one of the X-Men and most CMA experts I know don't treat it as more than an odd phenomenon, either. But there's something there that is interesting to observe (without dwelling on it).

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
"Knowledge of the fascia" wasn't brought up by me as a point. "Fascia" was mentioned as a comment/statement. If you want to pursue the topic in depth, I encourage you to do so.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
I was responding to the first post quoted. In particular

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Traditionally, as someone's "qi" skills (in the I.S. area) increase, the related fascia tissues increase in development, etc., so it would be reasonable to expect some growth of the "magnetic feeling" effect, and in fact many traditional teachers all for that in evaluating someone's progress. Is it something other than a noticeable phenomenon? I personally don't think you can meditate on it and become one of the X-Men and most CMA experts I know don't treat it as more than an odd phenomenon, either. But there's something there that is interesting to observe (without dwelling on it).

FWIW

Mike Sigman
I was interested in nailing down the "qi skills increase" to "fascia tissue increase" link. If there is a demonstrable link then it stands that an apparatus that specifically stimulates the tissues may lead to more rapid effects than traditional methods alone (this may be a bad thing).

As a not too removed example if one cannot perform a chin up then knowing exactly which muscles are involved in the chin up one can perform isolation or targeted weight training to build up those muscles until a chin up can be done. Then it is likely a combination of continued isolation training as well as chin ups will result in further progress. Certainly there are other ways to get at performing chin ups ...

I recall the 'biography' of Bruce Lee in which he uses electrified contraptions to take his training to the next level. Something along those lines is where I'm headed (as soon as the life insurance gets settled).

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-22-2009, 04:42 PM   #338
Mike Sigman
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
I was interested in nailing down the "qi skills increase" to "fascia tissue increase" link. If there is a demonstrable link then it stands that an apparatus that specifically stimulates the tissues may lead to more rapid effects than traditional methods alone (this may be a bad thing).
Yes, there are a few mechanisms that do that; they're all more or less related. I mentioned (in a general way) how to do one in a post I made on Aikido Journal a couple of years ago. It's not very complete, but it's not a bad start.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-22-2009, 06:09 PM   #339
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Robert,

I'm going to be blunt. Please start your own thread and refrain from hijacking this thread any further.

Ignatius
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Old 11-22-2009, 06:11 PM   #340
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
"Knowledge of the fascia" wasn't brought up by me as a point. "Fascia" was mentioned as a comment/statement. If you want to pursue the topic in depth, I encourage you to do so.
By all means, do so in ANOTHER thread please.

Ignatius
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Old 11-22-2009, 06:20 PM   #341
Mike Sigman
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Good point, Ignatius. And I started to, but then I thought about it... this IS an internal power development method.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=3838

Sometimes the back and forth in threads leads to relevant ideas.

Best.

Mike
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Old 11-22-2009, 10:20 PM   #342
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Oh, let's bug the [S] aikipolice [/S] Ignatius some more (Hi Ignatius)

Quote:
My main point has been that there is no clear evidence that actual changes in the connective tissues are related to IT.
These are commonly cited 'proofs'

http://www.neijia.com/ICEPICK1.JPG
http://www.neijia.com/ICEPICK2.JPG

http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/17...600x600Q85.jpg

I'm sure there are others.

Quote:
Just how does one detect 'improvements' in the connective tissues with resorting to 'exotic' means like MRI etc? It may well be that IT does alter the connective tissues but how to prove it so?
Well, you could be pragmatic about it - insert hook, add weight, watch results - or you could see/test how much CT contributes to the force of an action by the means I outlined. Hell, you might even be able to use ultrasound for a look see. These things are *not* exotic - if you want to talk exotic, let's talk real time fluroscopy, DEXA, SQUID etc.

My point is - if you wanted to (badly enough) you *could* image this stuff (with varying degrees of invasiveness) to settle the matter. Population X does IS exercise for 6 months, population Y doesn't. Test and compare. End of argument. Comments about 'exotic' don't come into it.

OTOH, if you're satisfied by the 'poke a bone, feel it's harder' logic you used before, then I'm sure there are other, rougher indicators.

(The magnetic thing is interesting; that probably deserves some lab time from someone)

Quote:
In the same way knowledge of the connective tissue may not help ones IT one whit - so why bring it up?
Well, M2c...if you know the tissue at hand...and you know the way it generally responds and acts...then it speaks towards a particular type of training. OTOH, if you think something else is responsible, then you do something else.

The various methods for developing IS relevant CT (breathing, stretching, tapotment, hanging weights, 'plyometrics' etc) seem in line with that.

I could be wrong though - we're all here to learn. Do you have some other ideas?

Last edited by bob_stra : 11-22-2009 at 10:31 PM.
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:42 AM   #343
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Good point, Ignatius. And I started to, but then I thought about it... this IS an internal power development method.
Fair enough.

The fact is, breath work is a significant contributor to overall IS development. Whether the fascia gets worked and strengthened as a result is by-the-by.

If people want to get into the nitty gritty, then perhaps a relevant point of discussion might be the differences (or similarities) in the various breath methods themselves.

Ignatius
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Old 11-23-2009, 05:30 AM   #344
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
The fact is, breath work is a significant contributor to overall IS development. Whether the fascia gets worked and strengthened as a result is by-the-by.
Ignatius, do I understand what you are stating here when I rephrase like so: breath work does two things; a) it helps coordinate disparate parts of the body to work together in a connected whole (including effective relaxation), and b) strengthens various parts of the body, including the fascia. And that in your statement you are emphasizing the former point?
I would in addition say that there are important aspects that breath alone can not help with in relation to IS (let along martial application of such), as illustrated perhaps by the story of Koichi Tohei toppling over monks sitting in zazen.
Regards, Gernot

Gernot Hassenpflug
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Old 11-23-2009, 06:26 AM   #345
Mike Sigman
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
The fact is, breath work is a significant contributor to overall IS development. Whether the fascia gets worked and strengthened as a result is by-the-by.

If people want to get into the nitty gritty, then perhaps a relevant point of discussion might be the differences (or similarities) in the various breath methods themselves.
Aye and there's the rub. The "fascia" and the jin/kokyu are interdependent, but they work as a whole in the full banana. In the not-so-full banana breath is just a conditioner of fascia and fascia is an adjunct to the the process (including dantien/hara usage). So 'various breath methods' won't really tell the story by itself, but you don't really get full internal power without practicing correct breath methods. And they take a while to show results.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 11-23-2009, 06:20 PM   #346
Rob Watson
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
The fact is, breath work is a significant contributor to overall IS development. Whether the fascia gets worked and strengthened as a result is by-the-by.
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So 'various breath methods' won't really tell the story by itself, but you don't really get full internal power without practicing correct breath methods.
Correct breath methods alone can produce the desired results (of correct breath work) without any need to mention the fascia. If not then what does one need to know about the fascia (or other connective tissues) to be more 'correct' and realize results (better or faster, etc)?

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-23-2009, 06:38 PM   #347
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Correct breath methods alone can produce the desired results (of correct breath work) without any need to mention the fascia. If not then what does one need to know about the fascia (or other connective tissues) to be more 'correct' and realize results (better or faster, etc)?
I think it's related to the images used, and the development of intent. I'm guessing here, but perhaps the more detailed self-awareness one has, the more effective one's intent becomes in harnessing all available physical resources.
Regards, Gernot

Gernot Hassenpflug
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Old 11-23-2009, 06:55 PM   #348
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: View Post
I think it's related to the images used, and the development of intent.
Nah. As one teacher of mine said about a I.S. skill related to breathing that he showed, "Many people would say it is qi... but really it is just that the human body can be conditioned more than most people think". Breathing exercises are like biceps exercises in that they're deliberate exercises of certain parts of the body. The problem is that someone has to show you how to access the "qi" to develop it. And a lot of people get bits and pieces and think that they know.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-23-2009, 07:51 PM   #349
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Correct breath methods alone can produce the desired results (of correct breath work) without any need to mention the fascia.
Pursuant to Internal Power Development Methods, what would you say are the desired results that can be achievable by correct breath work? What would you describe as correct breath work? I'm asking because I'm very curious how you can assert something so definitively, when lots of posts keep mentioning how important it is to train the connective tissue.

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
If not then what does one need to know about the fascia (or other connective tissues) to be more 'correct' and realize results (better or faster, etc)?
Maybe there's a very telling reason why connective tissue, fascia, etc. keep getting mentioned as parts to condition, along with breath, etc. . . and the answers you've been given should be enough to get you started looking in the right direction.

I think there's more meat in discussions of "how" you condition the connective tissue -- which have already been touched on somewhat with talk of "held tensions", "postures", "stretching" in conjunction with breathwork . . in addition to the importance of not using local muscles . . so if you aren't using local muscle then how are you moving? Ki/Qi? How are you manifesting that, then?
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Old 11-23-2009, 08:34 PM   #350
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I'm asking because I'm very curious how you can assert something so definitively, when lots of posts keep mentioning how important it is to train the connective tissue.
Ah, poor phrasing on my part! I posed the phrase that way more to direct attention to the following question (in my previous post). I defer to Mike Sigman, Dan Harden et al as to what constitutes correct methods and expected results. The only real skills I have are critical thinking and general curmudgeoness.

I like Mike Sigmans post about the biceps ... the presumed logic is correct breathing to build up the desirable properties and structure of the fascia (connective tissues) at first locally and then out towards the limbs and the rest of the body. This enhanced connective tissue then aids in whole body movement (directed by the center) as well as the various 'listening abilities' thereby realizing IS, IP, aiki, etc ... or something like that.

Contrast that logic with correct breathing to build up whole body movement (directed by the center) as well as the various 'listening abilities' thereby realizing IS, IP, aiki, etc ... or something like that. No need for mention of connective tissue.

I'm not saying the connective tissue is not involved or required or the main 'source' of these abilities ... just that mentioning the connective tissues seem to be a diversion/distraction unless much more technical understanding about the components and functions of the connective tissues vis-a-vis IT is made much more plain. Honestly, if the muscles and nerves can't do the task (aiki) then there has to be something else and there isn't much left besides the connective tissues! I just prefer not to argue by inference.

Last edited by Rob Watson : 11-23-2009 at 08:37 PM.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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