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Old 11-18-2009, 03:29 PM   #301
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Great post Budd. Thanks! I agree with your thoughts!

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Old 11-18-2009, 04:22 PM   #302
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Great discussion folks...

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote:
It's recommended by some of the IT guys that you stop fighting altogether and focus on re-wiring your movement for some time.
Hmmm.... funny... sounds like something Ueshiba may have said, though not in so many words. When I first came across the term "investing in loss", I didn't really understand what that meant. Not until I encountered the idea of "stop fighting" in the literal sense, that it suddenly became clear.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote:
Toby spent time talking about how funakogi was done years ago in other styles.
This piqued my curiosity... Keith/Toby, would you (are you at liberty to) elaborate on this?

Ignatius
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Old 11-18-2009, 06:52 PM   #303
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Traditionally, as someone's "qi" skills (in the I.S. area) increase, the related fascia tissues increase in development...
Exactly how is this demonstrated-the fascia part I mean? Cadavers? I'm just asking ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-19-2009, 04:50 PM   #304
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Exactly how is this demonstrated-the fascia part I mean? Cadavers? I'm just asking ...
my Sifu can show you tendons in his wrist and elbows that look like clothesline that aren't even visible in most people.

when i first started noticing this is when i started to become more convinced of the training methods over methods like weight training.

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Old 11-19-2009, 05:11 PM   #305
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Exactly how is this demonstrated-the fascia part I mean? Cadavers? I'm just asking ...
Well.... there's more to the "magnetic feeling" stuff than just the tendons stuff. That (the tendon stuff) is along the branch that is considered to be "Shaolin" (a silly differentiation, IMO). The overall fascia/magnetic stuff is more than just tendons, but it's too complex to go into as a viable tangent.

Sorry for trying to dodge the ones that require extensive replies, but I tend to do that based on my experience that extended replies seldom do more than add to the wear and tear on my keyboard.

If the basis has been laid somewhere else, I can springboard off of that post... if not, I'll wait for some other 'expert' to explain it (Surely these guys who say "nothing new there" know the answers, right?). Overall, some of the questions, while certainly good ones, exceed the "basis already established", so I think we'll have to gradually build our way toward them over time.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-19-2009, 05:36 PM   #306
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

*mental note* X'mas pressie for Mike - either a new keyboard or Dragon Naturally Speaking...

Ignatius
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Old 11-19-2009, 05:47 PM   #307
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Yeah... someone let me know when Dragon gets to the point that it doesn't take 41 Days and Nights of input in order to work correctly. I've already wasted money on it twice before.
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:11 PM   #308
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Hokay... new keyboard then?

Ignatius
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Old 11-19-2009, 07:14 PM   #309
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well.... there's more to the "magnetic feeling" stuff than just the tendons stuff. That (the tendon stuff) is along the branch that is considered to be "Shaolin" (a silly differentiation, IMO). The overall fascia/magnetic stuff is more than just tendons, but it's too complex to go into as a viable tangent.

Sorry for trying to dodge the ones that require extensive replies, but I tend to do that based on my experience that extended replies seldom do more than add to the wear and tear on my keyboard.

If the basis has been laid somewhere else, I can springboard off of that post... if not, I'll wait for some other 'expert' to explain it (Surely these guys who say "nothing new there" know the answers, right?). Overall, some of the questions, while certainly good ones, exceed the "basis already established", so I think we'll have to gradually build our way toward them over time.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Well, you're the one who said the fascia tissues becomes more developed. Does that mean the fascia gets denser, stringier, tougher, more of it, etc. Unless you don't mean the actual fascia tissue but as a metaphor for something else? Certainly one can see tendons get 'ropey' and thicker but can one see fascia (without sugical methods)? Maybe you just mean the properties one attributes to the fascia become developed but any physical changes in the tissue is something else?

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-20-2009, 11:37 AM   #310
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Well, you're the one who said the fascia tissues becomes more developed. Does that mean the fascia gets denser, stringier, tougher, more of it, etc.
Yes.

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Mike Sigman
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Old 11-20-2009, 01:28 PM   #311
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Yes.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Cool. And this is confirmed by autopsies of folks known to have IT/IP/IS, aiki? I'd very much like to know how to view the fascia without surgical means. I certainly can't see any of mine .. maybe I don't have enough IT/IP/IS, aiki to yet get pronounced protuberances of fascia.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-20-2009, 01:42 PM   #312
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Cool. And this is confirmed by autopsies of folks known to have IT/IP/IS, aiki? I'd very much like to know how to view the fascia without surgical means. I certainly can't see any of mine .. maybe I don't have enough IT/IP/IS, aiki to yet get pronounced protuberances of fascia.
???? No one said anything about autopsies. The skin becomes very difficult to lacerate and puncture and there are other phenomena that have to do with strength/power that are commonly demonstrated. It's pretty obvious that all these phenomena come with increased fascia characteristics. The point I was originally making was that one of the increases has to do with the "magnetic feeling" stuff, as mentioned earlier.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-20-2009, 05:26 PM   #313
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
It's pretty obvious that all these phenomena come with increased fascia characteristics.
Obvious? There is a big difference between the properties associated with the activities attributed to fascia development through IT and the actual physical changes in the fascia tissue. Unless there is a way to obviously view the fascia tissue (besides cutting the body open and looking directly at it) then it is pretty much guess work. I suppose one could position the appropriate probes into the fascia to directly measure specifc properties and demonstrate IT guy has numbers significantly 'better' than joe blow.

I guess it comes down to if the fascia and knowledge of its properties/functions do not benefit ones ability to develop IT,IS,IP or aiki then why even mention it? If this knowledge does help then how are the properties of the fasica monitored to demonstrate specifc progress-I mean something besides "my aiki is better therefor my fascia must be more developed?

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:19 PM   #314
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Obvious? There is a big difference between the properties associated with the activities attributed to fascia development through IT and the actual physical changes in the fascia tissue. Unless there is a way to obviously view the fascia tissue (besides cutting the body open and looking directly at it) then it is pretty much guess work.
This is why I avoided the topic. If you knew what I knew, I think you would agree that it is "obvious". It is demonstrable. It is fairly commonly demonstrated in a lot of CMA's. And so on. Some one who has no idea of the background and other factors is going to say, "It's not obvious to me". I don't have a problem with that. Go back to some of my posts in, what, 2004 and read them in light of what a lot of people now know experientially about "I.S." and you'll see the same sort of "well, we don't know that for sure" comments from people who are now "knowledgeable" in I.S. It becomes a fruitless argument, so I don't see any point in getting into laboratory and cadaver studies just for the sake of discussion. If you see my point.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:34 PM   #315
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

And does it really matter. If you saw what Mike can do then I don't think it really matters. At least to me it doesn't. If he says do this stuf cause it works. Then why is that not enough?

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Old 11-20-2009, 07:23 PM   #316
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
And does it really matter. If you saw what Mike can do then I don't think it really matters. At least to me it doesn't. If he says do this stuf cause it works. Then why is that not enough?
Well, thanks, Kevin, but I can be wrong. All I was really trying to say was that some of these explanations get impossible complex if we don't all have the same baseline from which to discuss. I don't mind arguing a point (because I realize I could be wrong and I want to learn by debate/exploration), but if we get too much into conversations with disparities in common background, they become fruitless. My mistake for not being more clear.

Best.

Mike
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Old 11-20-2009, 08:02 PM   #317
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

I think we get too worried about the physics and physiology of the whole process vice focusing on endstates and simply figuring out uses and integration.

To me it is as simple as "hey that is cool, how'd you do that?"

Then it is looking at application.

Could careless personally about the microscopic stuff unless it helps in someway with the visualization or conceptual process of actually doing it.

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Old 11-21-2009, 09:52 AM   #318
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Well, it becomes something of a "game" too in that if I can prove via an assertion or trapping of your words that I can somehow be right and you wrong - then that gives me some sort of perceived authority in these discussions - even though in this instance, Internal Power Development methods *appears* like it should be cut and dried . .

Based on a PM I received, someone correctly pointed out that there's some details that we don't go into when comparing methods, because some of the goods are kept for our own . . and while I agree with that . . I also make note of Mike's point above in that if I try to explain exactly how I'm working on connecting my body from the inside out . . if you don't have that same baseline understanding or foot in the door . . you might agree with what I'm saying, but not because you understand what I mean -- conversely you might disagree for the same reason.

So it becomes a trick of 1) enabling the sharing of the same baseline knowledge and 2) speaking enough of a common language around "this stuff" to be on the same page.

I've found that until I get hands on with somebody, I really can't know for sure where they're coming from - especially having encountered enough disconnects (from myself and others) in "what we say vs. what we do" that the safest assumption is the base/core logic and leave the details for face to face.

Last edited by Budd : 11-21-2009 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 11-21-2009, 01:06 PM   #319
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Budd wrote:

Quote:
I've found that until I get hands on with somebody, I really can't know for sure where they're coming from - especially having encountered enough disconnects (from myself and others) in "what we say vs. what we do" that the safest assumption is the base/core logic and leave the details for face to face.
It always ocmes back to this doesn't it?

I agree, it wasn't until I came up to your dojo, what like 2 years ago??? wow time flies! that it made sense Budd, even then, it was hard to understand and conceptualize even with hands on.

So I wouldn't even try and figure it out on the web!

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Old 11-22-2009, 12:00 AM   #320
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Go back to some of my posts in, what, 2004
This is too vague and besides the earliest post I can find is Feb 2005.

There is no doubt the fascia is interesting stuff and intimately involved on movement and the senses but the real question is does knowing about fascia help ones improvement in IP,IS, aiki, etc or not?

I found this to be particularly interesting http://www.fasciaresearch.com/InnervationExcerpt.pdf

My main point has been that there is no clear evidence that actual changes in the connective tissues are related to IT. Just how does one detect 'improvements' in the connective tissues with resorting to 'exotic' means like MRI etc? It may well be that IT does alter the connective tissues but how to prove it so?

Perhaps it is only our growing awareness of the sensory elements in the connective tissue matrix and skilled use of this new awareness. One does not need thicker, denser of stronger connective tissues to improve the awareness of the sensory properties?

I may know plenty about gravitation field and general relativity but it does not help me from falling down. In the same way knowledge of the connective tissue may not help ones IT one whit - so why bring it up?

Consider an IT drill that results in improved listening jin. If a connective tissue expert explains that those movements stimulate the Pacini corpuscles (pressure and vibration sensory elements) does that help in any way besides yet another reinforcement that one is on the right path? Maybe that added positive reinforcement is reason enough to make the effort to understand on a deeper level than 'Mike said so'.

If one does not have an interest beyond just doing the drills then there is no point in digging deeper. Some of us just look at things from a different angle.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 11-22-2009, 03:34 AM   #321
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

May I gently suggest we all focus on the various methods - rather than cadavers and fascia - which is well beyond the scope of this discussion.

Or take it to a different thread please.

Ignatius
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Old 11-22-2009, 07:06 AM   #322
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Agree Ignatius.

Anyway my experiences with Cadavers is that they are really too stiff when doing IT exercises and need to learn to relax a little more.

That and there seems to be little or no difference between cadavers with developed fascia or undeveloped fascia...same result when you try and do a push test with them...so I don't think it has anything to do with fascia development with cadavers.

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Old 11-22-2009, 07:53 AM   #323
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Budd wrote:

It always comes back to this doesn't it?

I agree, it wasn't until I came up to your dojo, what like 2 years ago??? wow time flies! that it made sense Budd, even then, it was hard to understand and conceptualize even with hands on.

So I wouldn't even try and figure it out on the web!
Yes, everything is relative and it is important to align your baseline of understanding with someone else's to even start to try to understand where they are coming from - and even in person, it can be difficult as well.

I just did a few hours at a Gleason seminar yesterday and he totally dissected katetori ikkyo into many facets with a focus on what internals make it work properly. From his explanations, I heard things that I clearly heard from my times with Mike, Dan, and the early Ki Society. However, Gleason put his own slant on it and the result was different, but the same as well.

So, as mentioned, if it is that difficult to try and understand it in person at a seminar with the hands on opportunity, it is impossible to get it from the web environment - it just won't happen.

Greg Steckel
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Old 11-22-2009, 08:23 AM   #324
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
My main point has been that there is no clear evidence that actual changes in the connective tissues are related to IT. Just how does one detect 'improvements' in the connective tissues with resorting to 'exotic' means like MRI etc? It may well be that IT does alter the connective tissues but how to prove it so?
Not to further derail the thread, but it bears pointing out that
there *are* ways to test how much 'fascia' contributes to movement. One example are drop jumps. Typically, one gets the subject to do a series of drop jumps from different heights using different techniques, onto a force plate. The EMG profile allows one to identify neural, muscular and CT involvement whilst correlating it against force plate readings (never perfectly, but close enough to be able to say 'ok, you need more of X...whereas you need more of Y')

Sure, we're talking just legs in this example - so it's limited - but someone may be able to use the literature to come up with a nifty Master's thesis.
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Old 11-22-2009, 08:43 AM   #325
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
My main point has been that there is no clear evidence that actual changes in the connective tissues are related to IT. Just how does one detect 'improvements' in the connective tissues with resorting to 'exotic' means like MRI etc? It may well be that IT does alter the connective tissues but how to prove it so?
See the chopstick anecdote I just posted on the "changed body" thread.

I'm reluctant to get to far off into some of these tangential discussions because no background has been established and if people are really curious they'll do a bit more research on their own. I've been trying over the last few years to show what I know (which is admittedly limited) to a reasonable number of people and some of those people are increasing their abilities fairly rapidly. And some of them now have fairly broad-spectrum knowledge, well beyond anything being discussed on AikiWeb.... they'll be the ones to ask questions to, soon enough. If you want some of this information that requires almost a show-and-tell venue, you'll need to get out and meet some of these people and get involved in the discussions and studies and practice.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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