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Old 11-16-2009, 12:48 PM   #251
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Mark, how can you make this statement?
Hi Toby,

I can make the statement because your post just goes to confirm it. With a broad brush, I can say there is no aiki in BJJ just as I can say there is no aiki in aikido. It's a generality and it stands true. As you noted, the "skills" in Gracie jujutsu were reserved for a handful. Hence, there really isn't those same "skills" in the rest of the GJJ world, is there? Let alone the whole BJJ world.

And while I agree that there can be a certain amount of "internal training" going on (as I noted in my response to Kevin), I disagree that it can be labeled as aiki.

I also made the statement, "So, no, I don't believe those good jujutsu people that have been mentioned here by you and Toby have aiki" because IMO, it's true. Those people that were mentioned by you and Kevin prior to your post #245, IMO, don't have aiki. It's an opinion. I'm sure a lot of people disagree with me. I'm fine with that.

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
To claim that someone in BJJ can't be manifesting "aiki" in one form or another demonstrates you either can't recognize these skills outside your limited understanding of them or that you must be talking about a different "aiki" than I or any of the other experienced practitioners here talk about and teach.

( FWIW - I hate terms like aiki because no one can define exactly what "aiki" is. (I say tomato, you say tomato. ) I prefer internal skills because that is more accurate reference to what so many people are talking about. )
either ... or ... well, I guess it could be either of those, or something else ...

As to aiki ... I am learning how to define it -- exactly. In words, in teaching, and in doing. I think I've done a decent job of explaining the concept in some of my many posts here on Aikiweb. In fact, I was told at one point that I was talking over people's heads because they didn't have the experience to grasp the concepts I had put forth.

Now, I may not yet be fully capable in any of them (words, teaching, doing), but looking to others who are doing the same but are 5-15 years ahead, I know where I will be.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Great post Toby.

I get so very tired of these lists and arbitrary distinctions. All they do is help us put people into boxes.

"He has aiki, he doesn't..."
"It's all jujutsu, there's no aiki..."
Hi Chris,

We have them because The Way It's Always Been Done has failed us. There is a very serious lack of aiki in aikido. To change that is to define what is missing and either reintroduce it, find someone who has it to teach it, or to add it back. But, to do that, you have to define that IT (Internal Training) and aiki are missing.

We're barely past that point where people are starting to "believe" that aiki is really missing in aikido. And even then, it's not a majority of people. But enough that these people want to know how, when, where to make aikido what it was when Ueshiba Morihei had aiki.

To downplay that is to derive people of finding and really getting aiki. Does anyone really think that pushing aikido people off to cross train in BJJ/GJJ/jujutsu is going to give them aiki? People are relying upon some of us because we have had the fortune/luck/whatever to experience training that they have not been able to have or get. I take that seriously and try to help whenever and wherever I can.

In this instance, it's saying that I don't believe good jujutsu/BJJ people are going to be able to teach aiki. Do some of them have types of internal training? Sure. But, as Toby noted, how many will actually teach it outside a select handful? Do a few of the top people have aiki? I don't know but I'll keep an open mind that they could. Will they teach it? Considering the majority of the BJJ/GJJ/jujutsu world, I doubt it. Except to a select handful.
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Old 11-16-2009, 01:01 PM   #252
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
That's a pretty good example, Toby. In most first-time/begginer/general-purpose workshops I lead people through a number of jin/kokyu drills and end up showing people how to do that item. It is technically "aiki" because it lets you blend your internally-generated forces with the forces/resistance of your partner and off-balance him without moving. But just because someone can do that trick during a first workshop, does that mean that they are accomplished in the sense that they have good "internal" skills? Not in my opinion. People who mostly use arm/shoulder, have no dantien development, etc., can learn to do that type of skill, but it's just a rough facet of the whole-body skills, so it doesn't mean a lot in terms of the whole picture.
Agreed.... The thing I tell my own people is that once you start to preceive the internal sensitivity required for this stuff you can't suddenly assume you've "got it" and build exclusively on that alone. You must continually seek to go farther in creating a cohesive...I don't know what to call it...link of sensitivity and coordination throughout your whole body structure. To do otherwise inculcates habits and patterns you may later depend on in a way that is detrimental to further progess.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So this idea of "aiki" being proof of much escapes me, too, in terms of any overall definition.... there's a lot more to it than what many of the conversations indicate.
It's nice to know its not just me.....

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Another real problem with not being able to do more that a few aspects of jin/kokyu training is that while someone may think that now his Aikido (or other art) is "internal" and that he has arrived is that he can pattern himself into a type of movement that forever the realm of shoulder and muscle with odd bits of jin/kokyu showing through. Because of that permanent patterning, it's very difficult to change after that. Yet people who learn a few bits and take off "teaching it" are pretty certain to fall into that category.
LOL. I think I just repeated this above. Maybe we are on at least a similar page.

Regards,

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
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Old 11-16-2009, 01:03 PM   #253
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
That's a pretty good example, Toby. In most first-time/begginer/general-purpose workshops I lead people through a number of jin/kokyu drills and end up showing people how to do that item. It is technically "aiki" because it lets you blend your internally-generated forces with the forces/resistance of your partner and off-balance him without moving.
Hi Mike,

While I would agree, in a literal sense, that your example can be defined as "aiki", I would never call that Daito ryu aiki, nor would I say that it's the aiki as Ueshiba had. There is just so much more to it.

As an example, here's one of my posts:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=39

If I can do all of what I mention at the same time, I think it's a good beginning because, IMO, there is still more to aiki than all of that. If I remember, I may have posted more stuff in another thread.
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Old 11-16-2009, 01:40 PM   #254
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Toby,

I can make the statement because your post just goes to confirm it. With a broad brush, I can say there is no aiki in BJJ just as I can say there is no aiki in aikido.
Mark,

You must have a affinity for boxes and really big brushes.

With a broad enough brush you can justify saying anything, but that's not what Kevin Leavitt was referring to. He used a very specific brush based on Rob's Liberti's definition, and concluded that given Rob's definition BJJ was aikijujutsu. Nobody asked for your definition of aiki. Nobody said anything about your definition of aiki, and frankly I couldn't give a rats butt how anyone defines "aiki" because no one will ever agree. It's all rather pointless semantics. Look, even the greater Daito ryu community can't agree on what defines "aiki" but you think you can define it for the rest of us? Good luck with that!

As far as BJJ and internal skills go.....

Sure people early in BJJ only taught the high level stuff to high level practitioners. Are you surprised? The problem only becomes systemic when the high level representatives don't have the skills. This is what makes BJJ different from Aikido. In Aikido we had advanced practitioners totally devoid of skills coinsidered absolutely necessary. That's a very different situation from BJJ where the crucible of using and applying these skills is much more direct.

Now, we can argue all day whether its good or not for these skills to be considered advanced foundational or beginning foundational, but if guys like Helio obviously had the skills and actively taught these skills to his best students.....and these skills are now being taught farther down the food chain in open seminars like that taught by Rickson ( Invisible jujutsu - Tim Fong ), your proposition is simply......wrong.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 11-16-2009 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 11-16-2009, 02:18 PM   #255
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Tell you what I'll do, Tom. I haven't put out any substantive videos of things since the mid-1990's, although I've put out a few specialized videos for some people on QiJin, etc. You put out a couple of videos of you even doing basic stuff, so we can get an idea of where you are in your skills and then I'll reciprocate by putting out some equally-telling videos. How's that?

Oh... and by the way... what do you even mean by "down power"? Is it something that has some explicit technical meaning or is it simply some sort of buzzword? Tell us what "down power" utilizes and what it means so we can get an idea of where you're coming from. Perhaps this can give us an idea of where an administrator on the Rum Soaked Fist forum, a "CMA" forum, sees things from.

Mike Sigman
Thanks for the clarification, Mike. I hadn't seen any video footage of your work since those early tapes you put together back in the mid-1990s (how time flies). I know you've evolved and developed your ideas since then, and was just curious if you'd put out any additional teaching or demo footage reflecting that development that people could be pointed to. I already direct people to your QiJin list if they want a clearer idea of what you're working on.

The reference to "down power" was in your post #22 on this thread
(http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.p...&postcount=22), where you wrote:

To take the "not using the dantien" comment literally, there is no down-power in ILC. I would make a personal bet that Sam Chin wouldn't be rash enough to say that. However, I don't want to argue trivial techno-babble, other than to point out that the statement simply won't work. [bold added for emphasis]

I was asking if you had any video footage demonstrating or explaining what "down power" is, since that's not a term I am familiar with, nor would I want to assume that I knew what you meant. I also don't train ILC and have not met and felt Sam Chin.

However, like you, I don't want to argue "trivial techno-babble." Nor do I want to put you on the spot by requesting you to make a video clip on a specific point. I'll just look forward to the next time I get to work with you.
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Old 11-16-2009, 05:49 PM   #256
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Mark,

You must have a affinity for boxes and really big brushes.

With a broad enough brush you can justify saying anything, but that's not what Kevin Leavitt was referring to. He used a very specific brush based on Rob's Liberti's definition, and concluded that given Rob's definition BJJ was aikijujutsu. Nobody asked for your definition of aiki. Nobody said anything about your definition of aiki, and frankly I couldn't give a rats butt how anyone defines "aiki" because no one will ever agree. It's all rather pointless semantics. Look, even the greater Daito ryu community can't agree on what defines "aiki" but you think you can define it for the rest of us? Good luck with that!

As far as BJJ and internal skills go.....

Sure people early in BJJ only taught the high level stuff to high level practitioners. Are you surprised? The problem only becomes systemic when the high level representatives don't have the skills. This is what makes BJJ different from Aikido. In Aikido we had advanced practitioners totally devoid of skills coinsidered absolutely necessary. That's a very different situation from BJJ where the crucible of using and applying these skills is much more direct.

Now, we can argue all day whether its good or not for these skills to be considered advanced foundational or beginning foundational, but if guys like Helio obviously had the skills and actively taught these skills to his best students.....and these skills are now being taught farther down the food chain in open seminars like that taught by Rickson ( Invisible jujutsu - Tim Fong ), your proposition is simply......wrong.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Why does teaching something called invisible jujitsu make it internal or signify internal power? I've randori'd with Judo and BJJ guys and I can't tell the difference between the two, and none of it feels internally powered.

Isn't internal power/ki cultivation separate from martial arts? Traditional dance, and calligraphy uses these skills. If one looked you'd find other examples. People do Qi gongs for health.

I don't see why everything at the 'highest level' now is automatically internal? You can suck and still move internally.
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Old 11-16-2009, 06:51 PM   #257
Toby Threadgill
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
Why does teaching something called invisible jujitsu make it internal or signify internal power? I've randori'd with Judo and BJJ guys and I can't tell the difference between the two, and none of it feels internally powered.
Robert,

Have you randori'd with any of the very best BJJ guys? If you have rolled with someone like Carlos Machado or Rickson Gracie, have you asked him how he does what he does? Have you asked him to explain in his own terminology exactly what he's doing and then observed how he teaches it? If not, I'd keep an open mind and consider the opinions of those who have. The problem with defining "internal power" in a BJJ guy is that the context, terminology and manifestation are so different that you need to do some serious translation work to see the connections. At first I was stumped, but then I started to see connections I already understood. I just hadn't translated them into the newaza environment in my head.

FWIW....Others with similar experiences to mine have come to similar conclusions.

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
Isn't internal power/ki cultivation separate from martial arts? Traditional dance, and calligraphy uses these skills. If one looked you'd find other examples. People do Qi gongs for health.
Yes. So what's your point? If these skills can be utilized in calligraphy why would they not be found in BJJ? Keep in mind that I'm not saying BJJ depends on the inclusion of internal skills like aikido does, but that in my experience it is present in varying degrees and manners among the higher level BJJ guys. I'm convinced you can be a damn good BBJ guy without internal skills but it appears the best practitioners, especially those beyond their youth are embracing principles and skills associated with IT.

Quote:
Robert Roeser wrote: View Post
I don't see why everything at the 'highest level' now is automatically internal? You can suck and still move internally.
Absolutely. And you can be frighteningly effective and have virtually no internal skills. I used to train in Muay Thai with guys that had minimal if any internal skills and they could knock my friggin head into orbit. They were also blindingly fast. Does anyone here think Fedor Emelianenko is doing internal training? Would it matter..LOL?

I keep saying this. Internal skills are only one among many that can be used in a cohesive manner to create a well rounded and successful budoka. Internal skills are not necessarily required for someone to be an impressive and formidable martial artist unless the art you pursue technically depends on their inclusion. That's why this topic is so important to aikidoka. Aikido demands a certain level of it, as does TSYR.

I hope that clarifies things.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 11-16-2009 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 11-16-2009, 08:25 PM   #258
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post

Does anyone here think Fedor Emelianenko is doing internal training? Would it matter..LOL?
Fedor and internal training . . . that is an interesting question. Three qualities that consistently impress me about him are his composure under pressure, his resilience, and his timing/perception (when and where to turn it on). I'd be very interested in finding out what he trained in during his (approximately) two years in the Russian army. I know his assignment was as a military firefighter, but I wonder what level of their basic physical training he engaged in. By the end of his military service, he was a Master of Sports (a high-level official certification in Russia) in Judo and Sambo.

Here is one account of Fedor's physical training regimen:

Fedor Emelianenko's Training and Fighting Style

Many would love to know Fedor Emelianenko's training regimen so they could copy it. After all, he is widely considered the best mixed martial arts heavyweight in the world today and possibly in the history of MMA. Well, here's as much of it as he's giving out.

As a child, Fedor trained in Sambo and Judo, two similar styles that focus on takedowns and, especially in the case of Sambo, submissions (Sambo is particularly known for its leg locks). Even after he started in MMA, Fedor managed to compete successfully in Sambo, becoming the Russian Combat Sambo Champion (2002), World Combat Sambo Champion (Heavyweight Division- 2002, 2005), and World Combat Sambo Champion (Absolute- 2002).

By 2000, however, Fedor was extremely well- versed in these techniques and because of this began to learn striking under coach Alexander Vasilievich Michkov.

Fedor will sometimes train three times per day. Further, it's widely known that although he used to weight train quite a bit, he hardly ever uses weights anymore. Instead, he focuses on strength exercises that utilize his own body including pull- ups, push- ups on parallel bars, and crunches.

According to an official website interview, Fedor runs 7.5- 9.3 miles per day. Beyond that his workouts consist of grappling, kickboxing, and boxing; in other words, the things he's asked to do in the ring. He often chooses to train in Kislovodsk, Russia. The reason- high altitude.

In 2005, Fedor started focusing on his kickboxing skills in a large way. The probable reason for this was his upcoming match with Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic. So who did he decide to work with? Cro Cop's old nemesis from kickboxing, Ernesto Hoost. In addition, he has added a Muay Thai coach (Ruslan Nagnibida).

In terms of fighting style, Fedor has one all his own. He's got great takedowns and ground control skills. Further, he's the most devastating fighter the MMA landscape has ever seen when in someone else's guard, literally raining down punches with tremendous force on his opponents while in a position where most would be somewhat cautious.

However, one reason that Fedor seems able to do this is that he has shown the ability, time and time again, to literally power out of submission attempts that other fighters would be tapping from (see the Nogueira fights for examples).

Last, Fedor's striking skills have improved tremendously. He hits very hard, has knockout power in both hands, and is a particularly devastating striker inside (as he showed in the fight against Cro Cop). Beyond that, he's a master game planner (his team also deserves some credit for this). All fighters walk into bouts with a plan, but unlike most, Fedor follows through. He simply doesn't wilt under pressure and seems calm no matter what the circumstances.


http://www.extremeprosports.com/full...elianenko.html

No, I don't think he trains aiki as it's discussed here on the forum . . . but he does train hard and he fights intelligently, He's extremely interesting to me in that he's developed into an amazingly effective fighter from an apparently undistinguished--pre-military--background. I love watching Fedor at work.
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Old 11-16-2009, 08:28 PM   #259
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Robert,
My understanding is that if you attend one of Rickson's seminars, you have an opportunity to roll with the man himself. If you are that curious, just go and see what the guy feels like in a freestyle situation. Ask questions etc. I for one would be curious what he says.

I am going to say it again, even though I keep saying it and apparently no one is listening: until there is a physiological understanding of what the various factors are in the internal skills, it is difficult to have any kind of substantive discussion about what to train and how to train it. Otherwise we get stuck in the same situation where people all put forward their subjective (but probably relevant) phenomenological language. This of course is not too useful unless one is initiated into the particular tradition discussed. I guess one just has to feel it.

When I say physiological understanding, I'm talking about objectively** determining what is happening inside the body. Just because someone says "well I tell you, I feel the fascia, and that's that" isn't good enough for me.

Naturally someone is going to come out now and go "but Tim, science is just anotherrrrrrrrr way of knowwwwwwwing why should we privilege thaaaaaaaaaat." Whatever. But it's one into which far more people are initiated.

**yes, I know some people claim there is no objective reality either because it's all some hegemonic discourse blah blah blah. Again I say : whatever.
Best,
Tim

Last edited by Tim Fong : 11-16-2009 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 11-16-2009, 09:11 PM   #260
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

token post of Rickson Gracie training scene from Choke
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Old 11-16-2009, 09:29 PM   #261
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
..
I am going to say it again, even though I keep saying it and apparently no one is listening: until there is a physiological understanding of what the various factors are in the internal skills, it is difficult to have any kind of substantive discussion about what to train and how to train it. Otherwise we get stuck in the same situation where people all put forward their subjective (but probably relevant) phenomenological language. This of course is not too useful unless one is initiated into the particular tradition discussed. I guess one just has to feel it.

When I say physiological understanding, I'm talking about objectively** determining what is happening inside the body.
nice. fwiw I'm listening.
i think you are on the money. but some people in this room have experienced that; and you are right; we don't know what we don't know. what else can you say? should we not discuss it? ...i argue that there is value...sometimes hearing or seeing something at the right time in a different way is the lynch pin in a new understanding. whether or not it was the 'real thing' is not certain; but some things of value can still have intrinsic value (even if it misses the mark)
so yeah; gong fu cannot be typed out. what else is new?
i still wish there was more concrete methods (check out Rickson's situps); as it really opens up how others think about the training of the body; there were a few gems earlier in this thread (thanks ll, do, tc, ah, dh, mm, rl, rj, by, cm, tt)...but i think these things are golden...and some people hoard them or consolidatepolitick because of it. others share and find it multiplies. i know; weird thought.

whatever. this is extremely likely not life and death for most of us, nor does it mean a raise at work; but i will say it is pretty damned interesting. and it's pretty wicked to read all `yer thoughts on this most difficult of subjects.
best indeed,
josh
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Old 11-16-2009, 09:37 PM   #262
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Josh, that video reminds me of my MMA instructor in Germany. I "contracted" him a few years ago and drove 3 hours to Stuttgart to train a long weekend with him. I stayed at his house. Friday night he said, lets grab a quick bite and sit down and watch some vids. I thought we were going to watch fight vids. Nope 2 hours of Ashtanga Yoga with him pausing it along the way to show how it worked and related to JJ.

Anyway, he basically told me that unless I developed some baseline structure and framwork...that I would never really get it.

I remember distinctly how he would put me in closed guard and this without moving much or at all, he'd drop center and then I'd feel myself rising up through the bottom of my spine and him coming underneath me. It was not from a curling of the abs where the pressure comes from the closed guard on your back...that you can resist, now it went down, up my spine and out my head.

there were a few other things, but this one stuck with me.

Thanks for the post on Rickson's video. I really want to have the opportunity to train with him someday.

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Old 11-16-2009, 09:50 PM   #263
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Tim Fong wrote: View Post
until there is a physiological understanding of what the various factors are in the internal skills, it is difficult to have any kind of substantive discussion about what to train and how to train it. Otherwise we get stuck in the same situation where people all put forward their subjective (but probably relevant) phenomenological language.
The explanation of the physiological basis for "internal strength" seems to me to be relatively unnecessary for the question of "how to train it." For example, knowing that fascia is expanding or spiraling is an interesting thought, but is not of itself going to provide much useable precision to the specific training I am doing.

The "how-to" is my own primary interest. The "what is happening" descriptive element that a physiological understanding would bring might provide a basis for comparing/evaluating different methods or exercises purporting to develop internal strength, and for refining training methods, but I don't think it is absolutely critical in order to identify at least some people who have "internal skills" and who are willing to demonstrate what they think is important in their own training to develop internal skill.

If I encounter someone who can demonstrate aspects of what I consider to be internal strength skill, I will ask him/her to (please) show me what you do, how to do it . . . and I'll practice it as intelligently and perseveringly as I can, and test my progress. Ark, Mike, Dan and others have all shared their own approaches to this work, and it seems like a number of people who have worked with those teachers in the past few years are making some real progress--progress despite somewhat ambiguous terminology. The IHTBF paradigm provides a rough-and-ready utilitarian degree of empiricism for purposes of improving our practice.

It's not that a physiological (and neurophysiological) understanding wouldn't be of general benefit in the long run. I'm trying to interest some people with the facilities and experience to measure these kinds of physiological changes in designing ways to observe and document what is going on in skilled practitioners' bodies and brains during demonstrations or tests of internal strength skill. Scanning technology is growing increasingly comprehensive and accurate, but at this point it would be difficult to measure "internal" dimensions of a real-time demo of a full-range technique like a judo throw. Comparatively static, basic partner exercises like aiki age, or Ark's and Dan's different versions of the "push-out," and solo work like zhan zhuang (holding different stances with contradictory force) or Mike's "universal exercise" will probably be easier to observe and measure.

Since there is no pharmaceutical or biotech company eager to delve into the secrets of Aikiweb, though, it may be awhile before just plain ol' scientific curiosity frees up time and interest in one of the labs. There may be real interest for this kind of investigation in China, from what I know, and I wouldn't be surprised to see interest develop in Japan as well.

In the meantime, I practice the "how-to" as best as I can understand it.
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Old 11-16-2009, 09:54 PM   #264
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

I only know what I know and what I have experienced, and I have tried to listen as carefully as I can, while maintaining a foot in my own criteria for assessment.

In working with all the guys I consider "good" at what they do...there is a consistent theme. Rickson's video you post also confirms this as well.

There is a certain baseline of conditioning, structure, and development you need to really get good at this stuff...whether you call it internal or external.

I'd say the more you have, the better you will probably be...or at least you have the framework ready to hang the art.

I really think it is a simple as that in alot of cases. I am betting that giving the command that Rickson has over his body....he'd probably do pretty good if he decided to take up a strictly internal practice and get proficient at Jo test or what not. Probably faster than alot of us that have been doing this stuff for years and whining about how our art and teachers have ripped us off!

Most of these guys, MIke, Ark, Toby, and Dan...have been fairly forthright about their experiences. I don't believe any of them have said anything other than "here is how I do things, you can take it or leave it...it is a framework for you to expand upon."

All of them I think have also said, it probably doesn't matter much what you do as long as you do something consistently.

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Old 11-16-2009, 10:49 PM   #265
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
There is a certain baseline of conditioning, structure, and development you need to really get good at this stuff...whether you call it internal or external.

I'd say the more you have, the better you will probably be...or at least you have the framework ready to hang the art.

I really think it is a simple as that in alot of cases. I am betting that giving the command that Rickson has over his body....he'd probably do pretty good if he decided to take up a strictly internal practice and get proficient at Jo test or what not. Probably faster than alot of us that have been doing this stuff for years and whining about how our art and teachers have ripped us off!
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Old 11-17-2009, 12:51 AM   #266
eyrie
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Gentlemen,

Whilst the discussion about who's got it or doesn't is all good and interesting, it's not germane to the topic. There's a separate thread somewhere else for that, for the so inclined.

Quote:
Tody Threadgill wrote:
Internal skills are only one among many that can be used in a cohesive manner to create a well rounded and successful budoka. Internal skills are not necessarily required for someone to be an impressive and formidable martial artist unless the art you pursue technically depends on their inclusion. That's why this topic is so important to aikidoka. Aikido demands a certain level of it, as does TSYR.
What Toby said here is pertinent though... because aikido demands a certain level of it... it begs the question, are all internal power development methods the same, and would *any* (internal power development) method suffice as a satisfactory adjunct/supplement to one's "aikido"?

Ignatius
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Old 11-17-2009, 06:28 AM   #267
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Does anyone here think Fedor Emelianenko is doing internal training?
Err...
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=244

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Would it matter.
Not really.

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Old 11-17-2009, 06:37 AM   #268
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Gentlemen,

Whilst the discussion about who's got it or doesn't is all good and interesting, it's not germane to the topic. There's a separate thread somewhere else for that, for the so inclined.

What Toby said here is pertinent though... because aikido demands a certain level of it... it begs the question, are all internal power development methods the same, and would *any* (internal power development) method suffice as a satisfactory adjunct/supplement to one's "aikido"?
Another question might be is aikido the end to the means...or the means to the end?

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Old 11-17-2009, 12:13 PM   #269
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

I am quite interested by where I see this discussion going . .

We've somewhat moved beyond "does internal exist and have value?" (thank goodness) and looking at methods . . but an important part of this discussion has to do with one's methods of developing internal power. Namely, is your practice of developing internal power . . one of the results of a martial art or tradition that you participate in (which has many other attributes besides internal training) . . or do you chase internal development for its own sake and your martial art is merely a container for how you express it?

Of those genuinely interested in the topic and incorporating it into their training, I think that's part of where the disconnect is coming in,with one side perhaps legitimately saying "This is the stuff, this is it and here's how I've been training it!!" while another side, also perhaps legimitately saying, "This is my martial tradition and it also/already includes internal training!!"

So, then it comes down to figuring out what your goals are for training and then honestly working towards fulfilling those goals. Neither of which is easy and both can be an evolving process that happens over time and is impacted by what's available to you. I think what's been interesting . . and something that Ellis's book hints at - is regarding how skills are lost over time . .

But a difficulty in ever truly assessing these things is that they have to be felt . . and you need something of an edcuated assessment filter to identify degrees of internal skill. I think there's something to the generic powerful hard, powerful soft and powerful ghost-like progression that I've seen come up more than once. But I'm still just a bum working on this stuff like a lot of other folks.
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Old 11-17-2009, 02:56 PM   #270
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

This interview with the head of a Chinese system is quite apropos, methinks, in that the students are led through methods in such a way to have a framework for expressing internal strength in a martial context . . might just be me, but I definitely see some relevance towards an application-based method of developing Takemusu Aiki:

http://www.yichuankungfu.com/cheuk-fung/hunyuan/
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Old 11-17-2009, 03:27 PM   #271
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
This interview with the head of a Chinese system is quite apropos, methinks, in that the students are led through methods in such a way to have a framework for expressing internal strength in a martial context . . might just be me, but I definitely see some relevance towards an application-based method of developing Takemusu Aiki:

http://www.yichuankungfu.com/cheuk-fung/hunyuan/
Except that it's a bunch of crap...

Magnetic auras???

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Old 11-17-2009, 03:41 PM   #272
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Except that it's a bunch of crap...

Magnetic auras???
Ugh, read through the thread - 2005, that's about the time I stopped reading that site too readily . . which is a shame because I do like the logic that's set forth . . ah well.
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Old 11-17-2009, 05:04 PM   #273
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
an important part of this discussion has to do with one's methods of developing internal power. Namely, is your practice of developing internal power . . one of the results of a martial art or tradition that you participate in (which has many other attributes besides internal training) . . or do you chase internal development for its own sake and your martial art is merely a container for how you express it?
Hi Budd, that's a good point, and I know where you're going with it, but let's not confuse power development methods with technical application - even if they are co-dependent.

The corollary to your same question would be: is one chasing internal power development from various outside sources to better see what one is missing from within one's chosen art/style? And would one be able to discern the subtleties and differences in other approaches? Or whether such methods are indeed compatible with the art, or would significant re-wiring/re-learning be required?

Ignatius
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Old 11-17-2009, 06:42 PM   #274
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Ugh, read through the thread - 2005, that's about the time I stopped reading that site too readily . . which is a shame because I do like the logic that's set forth . . ah well.
I miss you down there.

PS. And I miss you too, Kevin. Don't be jealous.

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Old 11-17-2009, 08:21 PM   #275
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Re: Internal Power Development Methods

Well maybe I will have to start posting again on bullshido. BIt of trivia...one of the founding admins, was an NCO in my battalion that kicked my ass and set me straight on my martial path.

It is a small world.

There was so, so much garbage on Bullshido in between the gems, that I simply got bored with it. That and they do have a fair number of squared away guys there too...it just didn't do it for me.

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