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Old 10-14-2009, 09:32 PM   #51
Erick Mead
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
If aiki/IP/IS, etc is 'natural' then where are the examples of aiki/IP/IS, etc in the animal kingdom?
Cephalopoda. Squids. Octopi -- in other words, forget you have bones -- then remember it -- but do the same thing as if you didn't.

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
One day the physicist wordsmith will write the definitive manual of IT, complete with diagrams, and they will be properly 'vetted' by those in the know then we can stop all this IHBF business and just get on with IT already.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:15 PM   #52
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Many of the people promoting .... Better, Buck: go out and meet them and get the whole story.

David
Could you please fill me in on who are these many people who got their information from koryu, am sorry I not sure who you are talking about, and what koryu?

And who is, when I get out from behind the keyboard, do train with, I am sorry again for asking details and not settling with generalities.

I didn't know Dan Harden was a medical doctor researching fascia and its role in martial arts, am not sure what art he is noted as being an expert. I am sorry, I lack that information.

You said, [Dan] also showed how those support lines become the major focus of technique instead of some combinations of muscular effort. Since it is a central factor in daito ryu, O Sensei learned directly from Sokaku Takeda and emerged as one of the most powerful adherents of that art, we have much reason to believe that he not only used it but developed it to an extremely fine level.....

I want to ask, is Dan an expert in daito ryu? Has he trained in that art, and what is his rank and teachers. I ask this because the answers would provide greater credibility to Dan's resume. But unfortunately is doesn't really provide scientific proof, or evidence of how the fascia works in improving technique. It shows that some people can't push Dan. It reminds me of an episode of that Kungfu show that the guy who played "Bill" in the movie "Kill Bill" where in a screen two punks tried to move him out of some guys office and couldn't. Or the Aikido demo of where you sit in seiza and then you tell another person to push and try to slide you back. As they try to push you, you stand up. The person trying to push you is amazed you can do that. Us Aikidoka know how that is done. It is all about the direction the force (push) is coming from and where it is placed (usually on the shoulders). The person who is pushing you is doing so from a disadvantaged position. Direction of force (push) is wrong, the pusher's posture is such that it counters a productive and strong force to get the result of pushing you back. Even more so if it is done on a textured flooring.

I don't see the proof of not being able to push someone equating to the validation of the fascia playing a role proposed function as you outlined in the martial arts, and stuff. Before science, it was believed the world was flat, by many intellectual learned and scholarly Europeans of the time, until it was proven wrong. Or the earth was the center of the universe and all the planets revolved around it, until that was proven wrong too. The shroud of Turin, it was proven to be fake by science.

All this came about because people didn't just accept what they where told, or filled in their own blanks when they experienced something they don't understand, like that of Faith Healers, or what Doctors deal with when they come across patients without any medical training doing self-diagnosis, and that stuff.

This is an interesting website, which I see strong modeling going on in what you are saying and all that stuff. http://www.healself.org/massage.html

The way fascia is being explained models tightly to the link I provided which leads me to ask for a scientific explanation instead. Though I am baffled that asking for a scientific explanation ( a real one ) is apostasy and heresy, and met with contempt and ridicule. What am I to think?
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:15 PM   #53
David Orange
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Absolutely...David, I can see where for someone at Mike Sigman's level of training and knowledge that it is useful to look deeper. At my level though, it just isn't useful at this stage.
It's really not useful for me, either, being at a lower level of development in IS skills than yourself, but it was only when I intellectually recognized the whole-body nature of the fascia/connective tissue that I began to give real credence to what Mike was saying. And then I got motivated to get into what he, Dan and Rob were talking about. So....yes and no. But I do have tons of work to do before more intellectualization will have much value.

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I suppose my point is more directed to the constant conversation and what it is and isn't that becomes a cyclic discussion that repeats itself with no advancement.
Well, the same argument goes round and round, but every few cycles a few more people get a light bulb over their heads, and some little progress is made.

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Not much point on discussing further past a certain point unless you are actually training.
Yes...though I don't think anyone knows what that point is. I think we all need different stimuli to spark our fuses and you never know what random comment will do that for someone.

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I do agree that there are those out there that don't have access. My access is limited as well to a few times a year, that and I make a conscious point at this time to spend my time developing primarily my JJ skills and IS secondarily. That may change one day...and frankly I am hoping that they will merge and invert...but right now, I feel it is more important for me to spend time in this area of development most of the time.
It makes a lot of sense to me. I've paid attention to your progress over the past couple of years and I've seen how your thinking has gone and I wouldn't think of second guessing your focus on direct value. And with the experience you're getting, I have no doubt that you will be getting to the heart of IS in a few years.

I also agree with Mike that it is complex and that the fascia is not the end-all/be-all of the topic. Also, I know that mental "knowledge" of the subject can lead to a lot of bad usage if it isn't grounded in the physical skills, but the very idea of "using the fascia" of the body to "do" something is just so foreign to most externally trained martial artists that a good bit of hashing out can help break through some mental blindness and make those light bulbs go on.

QUOTE=Kevin Leavitt;242819]Anyway, good discussion.[/quote]

I think so. As long as people are still asking things like "Can you control the contraction of the fascia like muscle?" it should be continued. And I think we've seen a bit more substance in this thread than we usually manage to get on IS threads.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 10-14-2009, 10:29 PM   #54
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

I also want to say, its great that people support each other in what they believe, am not here to dismiss anyone's opinions, tell people what they believe is wrong, ridicule and mock them, hurt their feelings, insult them for what they believe, all I ask is for solid, reliable, main stream scientific explanation of how the facisa works to improve your martial arts technique, especially in Aikido.. And if that can't be done then simply say it.

Last edited by Buck : 10-14-2009 at 10:31 PM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:35 PM   #55
David Orange
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
If aiki/IP/IS, etc is 'natural' then where are the examples of aiki/IP/IS, etc in the animal kingdom? Maybe aiki/IP/IS, etc one of those things that is co-opted for another purpose. If aiki/IP/IS, etc is does have to do with the fascia and the training is a form of fascia remodelling well certainly there are a great many critters (even non-mammalian) that have fascia.
Well, it seems that this is where the intellect comes in. I do believe that all the internal power development began with India, thousands of years ago, maybe with yoga or maybe with a forerunner of yoga, and that the martial arts as such developed out of pure fighting without necessarily having that internal benefit, which only a few people in martial arts were able to grasp. But it depended first on mentally recognizing a potential in the body, mentally identifying its workings and then physically/mentally refining that potential into various forms. It's the same thing with my old idea that "external" aikido technique developed from child movement and Dan's assertion that IS is "natural" but not "just natural" and that children do not have the capacity to develop it purely from their innate instincts of movement.

[quote=Robert M Watson Jr;242821]If aiki/IP/IS, etc gives such an advantage then surely it makes good sense for other animals to use IT too .. survival of the fittest and all.[quote=Robert M Watson Jr;242821]

Well, I think IS is really a distinguishing feature between animals and humans:nature must be refined by study, consideration and effort. Since animals cannot "consider" at that level, they cannot "refine" their nature further than nature has given it to them. An ape has the power of many men, but imagine if he could cultivate and refine that power through consideration and effort????

But his nature won't allow him to transcend his own nature, while human nature does have the potential to optimize natural power to a degree that seems perhaps supernatural.

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
How many times has is been stated that IHBF, can't be described in words, you can tell who does not know IT by how they describe IT? Basically those who have been cast as the exemplars have said it is so and therefore the rest of us buy into it so that leaves hands on demo as the preferred mode.
I am convinced that unless you have felt someone who really understands IS, you cannot imagine that it could exist because it is outside the degree of power that can possibly be developed through sheer muscle. And while I'm not certain that one who "can do" IS can necessarily explain it very well, when people use certain types of description, it does make me doubt that they really know what they are talking about and thus doubt that they can "do" the stuff. And when a person is like that, even if you do understand IS, you may not know if the other guy understands it unless you feel what he does.

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Just because it is strongly stated that IHBF does not mean that is so - certainly it is likely less efficient to give a written description/perscription to IT but the current lack is only in the abilities/capabilities of the 'vetted' group to do so. Certainly the art of the crafted word requires a certain talent that many lack - that is not a knock it just is so. One day the physicist wordsmith will write the definitive manual of IT, complete with diagrams, and they will be properly 'vetted' by those in the know then we can stop all this IHBF business and just get on with IT already.
Well, "knowing" IT and "really knowing" it (being able to "do" it) are quite different. But even if someone writes very convincingly, we should understand that they still might not be "able to do". After all, we have many accounts of folks who would seem to be experts in writing, but in-person meetings reveal that they don't really have a clue. Without feeling what someone does, you'll never know for certain if they really can do it.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 10-14-2009, 10:44 PM   #56
eyrie
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
all I ask is for solid, reliable, main stream scientific explanation of how the facisa [sic] works to improve your martial arts technique, especially in Aikido.
I don't think you're going to get a qualified answer here... much less a scientific explanation... (is there a doctor in the house?)

Do yourself a favor... get a good anatomy book, and one on kinesiology.

Ignatius
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:57 PM   #57
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Could you please fill me in on who are these many people who got their information from koryu, am sorry I not sure who you are talking about, and what koryu?
Dan bases his stuff largely on DR and the koryu he practices. Ark Akuzawa bases his on traditions coming from yagyu shingan ryu (though not as a member of the ryu) and he was a student at Sagawa's aiki dojo. And then there is Toby Threadgill...I mean, just read these threads carefully. The information has been posted repeatedly.

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I didn't know Dan Harden was a medical doctor researching fascia and its role in martial arts, am not sure what art he is noted as being an expert. I am sorry, I lack that information.
No. He's a martial artist in a tradition that has deep roots in dissection of bodies for anatomical analysis. Of course, that tradition is deeply informed by "Chinese" medicine (with a form widely practiced in Japan as well) and he has the intelligence to benefit by modern anatomical research that has become widely available as well. No mystery to it.

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
You said, [Dan] also showed how those support lines become the major focus of technique instead of some combinations of muscular effort. Since it is a central factor in daito ryu, O Sensei learned directly from Sokaku Takeda and emerged as one of the most powerful adherents of that art, we have much reason to believe that he not only used it but developed it to an extremely fine level.....

I want to ask, is Dan an expert in daito ryu? Has he trained in that art, and what is his rank and teachers. I ask this because the answers would provide greater credibility to Dan's resume.
Buck, if he can throw you clear across the room almost without moving a muscle, are you going to be more impressed by that ability if he shows you a DR resume and names his teacher?

The fact is, he's named his teacher in DR and I think most people will consider him an "expert" although he never told me what rank he might hold in the system. He has given a lot of that information and I have been satisfied with its authenticity by feeling what he does and having him explain the roots of it to me. The other big names also have high level backgrounds and it would do you more good to go and feel what they do than to continually re-question "what they know," etc.

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
But unfortunately is doesn't really provide scientific proof, or evidence of how the fascia works in improving technique.
You're right, Buck. You should just forget you ever heard of the idea and go on with whatever it is you've been doing that has made you so famous for throwing people vast distances with tiny movements.

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
It reminds me of ... the Aikido demo of where you sit in seiza and then you tell another person to push and try to slide you back. As they try to push you, you stand up. The person trying to push you is amazed you can do that...Us Aikidoka know how that is done. It is all about the direction the force (push) is coming from and where it is placed (usually on the shoulders). The person who is pushing you is doing so from a disadvantaged position. Direction of force (push) is wrong, the pusher's posture is such that it counters a productive and strong force to get the result of pushing you back. Even more so if it is done on a textured flooring.
Buck, I will put oil on my feet and I'll bet you can't do that with me pushing on you. MUCH LESS DAN, MIKE or ARK.

In other words, what you think you "understand" is meaningless when you run up against something that is so highly refined that it is beyond your understanding. A dog can dig up a chunk of gold ore, but it can't refine that gold and make a chalice of it and your "understanding" of what you described is just something you have "heard" and definitely "NOT" something you can "do." And the difference is what counts.

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
...I am baffled that asking for a scientific explanation ( a real one ) is apostasy and heresy, and met with contempt and ridicule. What am I to think?
Well, you are apparently to think that your mental powers are so great that you can understand things you've never encountered and can explain things you cannot do.

Again, Buck, just forget you ever heard of it and go back to your nap.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 10-14-2009 at 11:05 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:02 PM   #58
David Orange
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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...all I ask is for solid, reliable, main stream scientific explanation of how the facisa works to improve your martial arts technique, especially in Aikido.. And if that can't be done then simply say it.
It's not that it can't be done. You should have reviewed (at least) the information in the links to Anatomy Chains and at least gotten an idea from that. But the fact is, what you're really asking for is not "scientific data" but "layman's science" explained in English sentences rather than in pure statistical data form, as most real scientific explanation is done.

And again, as everyone has told you, your questions are not even valid questions until you have gotten hold of someone like Dan, Mike or Ark and felt "what" is being discussed. Anyway, I'm working on a follow up article to The Leather Man that will go into more detail about what I've learned about fascia / the suit since I wrote that first article.

Meantime, you won't be ready to understand the most basic level of this discussion until you feel someone who can "do" it and get a glimpse of the absyss that separates their ability from your vague and meandering conceptions.

Good luck.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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www.esotericorange.com
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:05 PM   #59
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I think the "fascia" discussions are probably premature. No one is going to understand any of the mechanisms from these types of discussions, so the worry is more that people will waste time on tangents that lead nowhere when they should be devoting more time to good basics. It's probably important to note that, as I've said before, there are many variations, gradations, and levels to these skills and all the attendant body-mechanics. In terms of "fascia", for instance, look at some of the harder style development types seen in the early parts of this vid clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q1WD...eature=related

versus this type of development:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj0qSe9Ryps

The first vid, even though it contains "fascia" and jin examples in it, is what would actually be called an "external" martial art. The second video shows how development could be done in an "internal" martial art. Most of the discussions I've seen so far on this forum in re fascia are actually along the lines of "external martial arts". The real question is 'what did Ueshiba do... internal or external development of the qi/ki/jin/kokyu skills?'.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Mike is this what your trying to get across?
I am sorry, and I don't mean to be insulting, but that first vid was hilarious watching the British journalist kicking the Master's package with his shin and pulling the kicks as well. And the poor way the journalist checked to see if the Master was padded or had a cup. British love a good practical joke, crop circles comes to mind.

The master explained, "...that the power comes from the internal, the chi, the organs the tendons, nothing to do with the muscle." Isn't that external? And there is nothing said about fasica, if the fasica is associated with muscle than it is disregarded with the muscle.

Now I see in the second vid how fasica is supporting they guy's posture, just as some people say it should. But, there is no explanation and stuff showing how the fasica is works to improve martial art technique.

If the fasica works with the muscle, besides other things, and the fasica is one big thing, then the sections of fascia that works with muscle must be disregarded along with the muscle per the Master. So does the facsia, as one thing, does work in part (independently from other sections) or in whole, how does that work?

Last edited by Buck : 10-14-2009 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:18 PM   #60
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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David Orange wrote: View Post

Meantime, you won't be ready to understand the most basic level of this discussion until you feel someone who can "do" it and get a glimpse of the absyss that separates their ability from your vague and meandering conceptions.

Good luck.

David
Why do you make the assumption I haven't? You don't, honestly. The world is a big place and not everyone wants to be popular on or off the internet. Not everyone wants attention. The other thing you fail to understand is I have no conceptions, am just asking for a scientific explanation of how the facsia works to improve your martial arts technique, especially in Aikido. And what am getting is go feel it, much like the unbeliever who sits in the folding chair under the big white tent full of believers, listening to the Good O' Boy Southern Preacher saying, you must believe the in Jesus, and his power to heal. The power he put in these hands. The power to heal the sick, the cripple...." That is what I am feeling from all this. Maybe, I just should do what Borat did when he was in a similar situation.
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:25 PM   #61
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
In terms of "fascia", for instance, look at some of the harder style development types seen in the early parts of this vid clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q1WD...eature=related

versus this type of development:
I forgot add, is there fascia in the scrotum, testes, and penis? I am not clear what the Master is attributing being kicked poorly in the package to? If chi is about the tendons and organs well...you get the picture. Am reminded in a way about those Chinese monks some years ago pulling buses and stuff with their penis, and contributing it to chi.

Last edited by Buck : 10-14-2009 at 11:29 PM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:43 PM   #62
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Whoa there, guys! I can guess from your very effective baiting that this is an argument you've had before... having not been solved then, it probably won't be solved now..

@David: point made, by many, I think, that some things have to be felt to be learned or even understood, like describing colour to the blind. On the other hand, surely one can empathise with the blind person's desire to understand colour and their insistence on repeated description, even if it's impossible to understand from words alone?

@Buck: I think the 'contempt and ridicule' you speak of is probably from another thread? This has been relatively tame and respectful, for the most part. As to the science, I don't think that the kind of experiments you ask about have been (or maybe even could be) done. On the other hand, we use words all the time that approximate what we are trying to explain, even when the specific application of those words is scientifically unproven or unprovable. It seems like people are just trying to use the best words they can to explain a very difficult concept.

Not trying to stifle anyone's voice - just trying to keep the shouting down...

I am not an expert
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:45 PM   #63
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Mr. Morrison
Excellent point yet there is no need to shout. I am not mad at a single person-in the room. Aiki is honest, flat, and in your face. It levels the playing field against all internet jocky's opinions, to the point that all they really have left is...talk.

To Mr. Burgess
I represent me and no one else. My understanding is in my own hands. Is there a reason I should feel compelled to tell you anything, anything at all about who I am or what I do?
And since you decided to be so direct, let me just say, I have yet to find anyone in your art; from yondan to 8th dan who can handle anything I can deliver. And that is with me just using aiki and not actually fighting. If there is some aikido shihan somewhere who can, I would love to meet him.
Not the least of which, is every teacher in the aiki arts who has tried, is now taking lessons from me, because I can do and I can actually teach what I do. It's all good fun.
I do what I do...because I can-and you, what do you do?

Since your betters can't handle this, or know just what it is that is happening to them, just who...are you- that I should tell you a single thing?
I don't want to convince you of anything sir. I am sure you have everything you need.
Good luck in your training
Dan.

Last edited by DH : 10-14-2009 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:48 PM   #64
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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I forgot add, is there fascia in the scrotum, testes, and penis?
For what it's worth - there are several layers of fascia in the scrotum and penis. There are also a lot of nerves and blood vessels, though - I can't begin to imagine the 5th kyu test for getting kicked in the nuts

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Old 10-15-2009, 12:00 AM   #65
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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Whoa there, guys! I can guess from your very effective baiting that this is an argument you've had before... having not been solved then, it probably won't be solved now..

@David: point made, by many, I think, that some things have to be felt to be learned or even understood, like describing colour to the blind. On the other hand, surely one can empathise with the blind person's desire to understand colour and their insistence on repeated description, even if it's impossible to understand from words alone?

@Buck: I think the 'contempt and ridicule' you speak of is probably from another thread? This has been relatively tame and respectful, for the most part. As to the science, I don't think that the kind of experiments you ask about have been (or maybe even could be) done. On the other hand, we use words all the time that approximate what we are trying to explain, even when the specific application of those words is scientifically unproven or unprovable. It seems like people are just trying to use the best words they can to explain a very difficult concept.

Not trying to stifle anyone's voice - just trying to keep the shouting down...
No one is shouting. I don't think a voice (per se) has been raised. I think I can get the explanation needed if the fasica played a role in improving martial arts technique beyond what it already does. I think someone has to do the proper research. There is a great Judo book and I forgot what the name of it is, but it explains Judo very well scientifically, you know Judo being an art and all. It shows all sorts of physics and stuff on what makes Judo work. I have been told there is allot of scientific research on Judo. I am confident it can be done with the fascia stuff. I am at the point that there isn't any scientific research out there that supports that the fasica does improve martial arts technique. How do I know it really is the fasica at work? Just because people are struggling for a language doesn't mean it's the universal scientific language. By using a universal scientific langauge we avoid, you say tomato, I say red healing ball, and all that kind of stuff.

I am now at the point that I understand that most people can't answer my question, as of yet. and that is fine.So there is no solid research published pertaining to my question, maybe in the future. THAT WAS EASY HUH, now I am shouting. I wonder if there is going to be an echo.

Last edited by Buck : 10-15-2009 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:18 AM   #66
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

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For what it's worth - there are several layers of fascia in the scrotum and penis. There are also a lot of nerves and blood vessels, though - I can't begin to imagine the 5th kyu test for getting kicked in the nuts
Honestly, I can think of better ways to treat my package then by letting someone get kick happy on it. How many sperm do you think gets killed with kick? They probably think it is some kind of natural catastrophic disaster.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:40 AM   #67
Buck
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Mr. Morrison
Excellent point yet there is no need to shout. I am not mad at a single person-in the room. Aiki is honest, flat, and in your face. It levels the playing field against all internet jocky's opinions, to the point that all they really have left is...talk.

To Mr. Burgess
I represent me and no one else. My understanding is in my own hands. Is there a reason I should feel compelled to tell you anything, anything at all about who I am or what I do?
And since you decided to be so direct, let me just say, I have yet to find anyone in your art; from yondan to 8th dan who can handle anything I can deliver. And that is with me just using aiki and not actually fighting. If there is some aikido shihan somewhere who can, I would love to meet him.
Not the least of which, is every teacher in the aiki arts who has tried, is now taking lessons from me, because I can do and I can actually teach what I do. It's all good fun.
I do what I do...because I can-and you, what do you do?

Since your betters can't handle this, or know just what it is that is happening to them, just who...are you- that I should tell you a single thing?
I don't want to convince you of anything sir. I am sure you have everything you need.
Good luck in your training
Dan.
Mr. Harden,

I am sorry if you feel this is about you. I realize, and am sure you do too, that you are the very prolific publicly and advocate energetically the way the fascia is used in martial arts, intently. I just wanted solid scientific research explaining all that. There isn't any yet. I can't say until then if the fascia does or doesn't play a role. I can't say it can or can't be controlled like a muscle, and all that. What am saying is I would like to read the solid scientific research, and really can't take any other explanation, cause lets face it we are talking Asian martial arts. and there is a lot of myth associated. Just like that old story of O'Sensei dodging bullets, and all that kind of stuff.

Look at it from my perspective, I say this with no disrespect, but why should I believe your theory, or any ones on this subject? Take the unbendable arm, same deal. It was attributed the power of ki of that calibrated the keenness of martial arts skill for many years that I know of. But the function is very simple, and a child can do it if properly instructed. I am skeptical, you have to be in the martial arts where magically powers are taught everywhere.
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:14 AM   #68
Buck
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Mr. Harden,

When I was in school, there was this guy who could lock up his body in such a way he would be stiff as a board. He would put two folding chairs apart from each other, lay across them. His head on one, and only his heels on the other. Then he would have other kids walk on him. He could stand up right and lock up on command and fall stiff as a board. He would challenge other kids to "unlock" him. They couldn't. There was no genetic mutation of joints, tendons etc. he was just a normal kid who figure out how to "lock up", be stiff as a board and hold that position overtime.

Now if that skill was picked-up in the martial arts it would be some mysterious, magical, chi/ki power thingy. It would be pandered to every wide-eyed eagar beginner that walked the planet. It would be taught as the holy grail of principles. A religion; a Yellow Bamboo. There is so much of this is the martial arts it is unmeasurable.

The other things the Chinese arts are laden with Taoism, not the Lao Tzu type, but the magic, superstitious stuff which has spilled over to the Japanese arts. To survive as a martial artist, you sanity that is, you have to be skeptical in a world that breeds hype, snake oil, gulibness, suckers, and fantasy. It's a mine field. You have to be skepical of what you see, hear, and read.
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:21 AM   #69
Buck
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

I didn't mention the amount of misinformation, misdirection, B.S. and all that, that exists.

What do you go by, to get the facts? 1. experience in such things. 2. Science.

So you will have to forgive me if you think I don't need scientitfic proof, explination, and stuff. And not instead of taking someone's or anyone's explaination.
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Old 10-15-2009, 02:33 AM   #70
jss
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
To survive as a martial artist, you sanity that is, you have to be skeptical in a world that breeds hype, snake oil, gulibness, suckers, and fantasy. It's a mine field. You have to be skepical of what you see, hear, and read.
Don't forget feel.
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Old 10-15-2009, 06:50 AM   #71
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Hello Dan,
Thank you. I think I understand...

Hello Kevin,
I think I got you. Although, I am still a fan of the kind of thinking Rob mentions. Actually, he summed up perfectly how i feel. But ..I definitely do agree with you. (not that it matters what i think! ..I know!)

Hello Buck,
I propose that the clear-cut evidence you are seeking may not exist...yet. Information about these skills would have to have been publicly available and then the science would have to have been done. I do not think this has happened.
So far; quite widely mentioned on this board are the tests of striking power (including Ark's testing for a TV show...<link>?) and body speed mentioned (motion capture study in UCLA?..<link>?). I would suggest that you take the discussions here in the spirit of a plausibility argument; and not as a given fact (yet). Then I would think that it's fine...just like that (for now). Even if true; how much would that change daily life for you? Not much, i think. I am predicting that as the state of understanding of these skills advance then so will the science try to keep up. As it usually has. Sometimes it inverts; but usually discovery precedes theory. Usually. I think we are seeing things in a new light...and that this will be reflected in science.
Here's another plausibility argument. Remember; you have Dan, Mike and Rob all, I believe (and sorry for putting words in anyone's mouth), who can do some pretty interesting things, by all accounts(!), who look to the fascia for the explanation (!!!). It may, of course, be wrong, but you have these 3 gents all pointing to the same thing. Through their own independent study they have arrived at a quasi-similar view of some very strange out-of-the-normal things. This should make any reasonable man take a pause. Perhaps there is an opportunity for some scholarship here....these seem like some very exciting potential areas to study. I am betting that some astute readers are thinking the exact same thing.
Either way; theory is theory. It will not transform daily life, let alone motion or ways of movement, for you, or anyone. I think the required burden of proof to allow you to suspend your disbelief has been met, by virtue of the fact that 3 exemplars of this IT (e.g. 2 of which are *highly disagreeagble*) do, in fact, agree that fascia is a good thing to consider.
Put another way (1) history is being made right now (this is always true, actually!!) (2) old knowledge is coming out and being made open to scientific inquiry. Relax....question everything..including, especially, yourself ..
It is a very interesting time to be around.
or maybe it's not. Depends on you.

Regarding scientific evidence:
My sempai once (long ago) told me of a posthumous dissection of a developed martial artist and it showed some 'development' of 'connection's in the back. I will contact him and try to find out more. This would have been done in our lifetimes. I am throwing this out there to see if anyone else heard of this.(?)

In the meantime, just for fun, Chen Xiao Wang explains double weighted

Josh

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 10-15-2009 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:12 AM   #72
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Buck,
In furtherance to the plausibility of the importance of fascia.. may I suggest to consider this:
Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
From today's NY Times:

Fascinating.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/24/he...eYtxTYZEvTxeVg
This is the way i see it
1. body is an adaptive feedback loop; adjusting to the demands placed on it. (e.g. the training effect exists)
2. fascia can build up and adjust as a result of the demands placed on it (e.g. see article)
3.fascia can effect body to such a degree that 'outward mechanical possibilities' are drastically effected (see article)
4. fascia can change over time (see article)
5. a body's movement capabilities can be 'weakened' as you have 'negative' fascial development. (see article) This suggests the opposite is, at least theoretically, possible. There is the possibility of fascial development that will strengthen and help body movement capabilities.

6. some here are saying there are modes of movement that exist that use and develop fascia and also/then use those changes advantageously. It seems it is linked with using ground path through the body; and relying on fascia (and fascial development) to provide (among other things?) structural reinforcement.

anyhow, just some more ideas.

Take care,
Josh

p.s. regarding that nutsack thing? I think he was checking that the master pulled 'em up inside!! Mike S mentions that there is a fascial tab there. fwiw. (Don't go around kicking or being kicked there...it is so 'advanced'...it snaps back around again and actually looks kind of retarded. something ironic in that, i think)

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 10-15-2009 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:17 AM   #73
David Orange
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
The other thing you fail to understand is I have no conceptions, am just asking for a scientific explanation of how the facsia works to improve your martial arts technique, especially in Aikido.
Do you really want a "scientific" explanation? I really don't think it would do you much good.

I think what you're really looking for is a "rational" explanation in layman's terms, isn't it?

And that has been given repeatedly. You just seemed to have glazed over every time you've come across explanations and just skimmed over them without absorbing the ideas at all.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
And what am getting is go feel it, much like the unbeliever who sits in the folding chair under the big white tent full of believers, listening to the Good O' Boy Southern Preacher saying, you must believe the in Jesus, and his power to heal.
The difference is that you can't get your hands on Jesus. All that's available from that approach is "mental" inspiration or "emotional" gratification. Maybe even spiritual uplifting. Whether any physical healing can be gained in a tent revival, in general, I doubt it.

However, you can get your hands on Dan, Mike or Ark and they can knock you across the mat with almost no movement. Why are you avoiding that experience? Be like a scientist and conduct some experiments with people known as experts. What kind of "scientist" would you be if you demanded all kinds of "explanations" of neurology but wouldn't go and meet any neurologists? You want them to explain all about how they do brain surgery without ever meeting them and observing what they do. So don't tell me you want "scientific" explanations that you clearly wouldn't understand when you can't even grasp layman's rational descriptions.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Maybe, I just should do what Borat did when he was in a similar situation.
Are you telling me your whole schtick is not an act? You really are like that? Because you come so close to Borat's character in every post you make that a lot of people really believe you're just spoofing everyone. Could anyone miss so many clear explanations?

Borat could....

Maybe you should go learn IT from him.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:37 AM   #74
DH
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Mr. Harden,
I am sorry if you feel this is about you.
Don't play games with me. You started discussing me and my qualifications and authority to discuss what I do.
Frankly, I had more respect for you when you made your statements and stood by them, rather than this nonsense.

I will say this one more time, since you remain confused about my intent. I am not trying to convince you of anything, and I have no information I want to qualify for you or even want you to consider. Please leave me out of your dialogue.
Thank you
Dan
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:43 AM   #75
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The metaphor of fascia?

Well I am/was not one to drink the Kool Aid or base things on faith, and I am very concerned with the whole "isn't this a cool trick" and "group think" mentality that can enter into martial arts so easily.

No, I need stuff to work and I have been fortunate enough to have a huge "laboratory" of soldiers and others in BJJ to show me the failures and shortcomings.

So in a sense, I do look at things "scientifically" or at least applied...I am not just doing the computer simulated modeling, theorectical discussions, or the "wind tunnel" testing...but developing my own assessment criteria and trying to learn what works for me and what doesn't.

My goal is focused on developing and harnessing methods of training that can be adapted for soldiers essentially and integrated into their training regimes.

Hence my comments on why I have not "come over" 100% to the IS side of the house as of yet.

That said, the time I have spent with these guys has been useful and I see great value in what they are doing, and while I am no "Internal Master" by any stretch of the imagination, there are somethings that I picked up and continue to pick up that have made me understand the dynamics better, and that I have been able to integrate into my own training with an immediate return on investment.

Yes, an immediate return on investment!

So, what is that 'hands on time" worth when you are considering ROI?

It is up to each individual to decide....

For me though, it has been worth the investment...what little I have put into it.

What is the correct ratio of time spent training? I am still figuring that out for myself as I believe everyone needs to.

For some that may be none...for others a little, and still for others...a full time investment.

And it may change over time.

When you finally feel the power from someone like Mike when he "pushes" in on your chest with very little movement and can knock you back and essentially hit your reset button....

Well I don't really need scientific proof or care what is going on internally. what I do is look practically at that.

How can I use that?

Welll on doing CQB..very helpful. Entering and clearning crowds...if I can maintain my base, reach up with minimal physical comittment and knock someone back...well I have use for that..

So once I have a practical use for that thing...then it comes down to .."okay, how to you get there?"

and now you are balancing priorities and deciding how to adopt/integrate training methods...which is the REAL challenge we face.

So, as far as "having faith" or determining "what is going on"...I tend to approach it from an application/tactical level of understanding.

Either way, it requires you to get out from behind the keyboard and develop a criteria for assessment that is physical in nature.

However, nothing is stopping you from dismissing it based on conversations and theorectical discussions.

It ain't like anyone is twisting your wrist and MAKING you accept this stuff. Drive on with your life if this ain't your thing!

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