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Old 10-19-2009, 01:02 PM   #51
DonMagee
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post

Then you have black belts of Aikido who cant even run a quarter of a mile without being winded, etc.
I have long stated that step one in valid self defense is being at least moderately physically fit.

What good is defending yourself against a attacker going to do you when you are going to get beaten by heart disease and high blood pressure?

Fights often don't go the way you want, and being able to keep up the pace will help.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-19-2009, 06:30 PM   #52
Anjisan
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Ki Symbol Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
I have long stated that step one in valid self defense is being at least moderately physically fit.

What good is defending yourself against a attacker going to do you when you are going to get beaten by heart disease and high blood pressure?

Fights often don't go the way you want, and being able to keep up the pace will help.
Often, I believe the training system that is often utilized of the "one and done" attack and response contributes to the perception that the encounter will end quickly (and of course always in our favor). Real encounters may take a little longer and therefore, require some conditioning.
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Old 10-20-2009, 06:57 AM   #53
DonMagee
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
Often, I believe the training system that is often utilized of the "one and done" attack and response contributes to the perception that the encounter will end quickly (and of course always in our favor). Real encounters may take a little longer and therefore, require some conditioning.
And sometimes, the proper response is run like hell in a zigzag pattern. If you can only make it a 1/4 mile down the road, your probably still in the same trouble that started you running.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-21-2009, 02:24 AM   #54
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
Often, I believe the training system that is often utilized of the "one and done" attack and response contributes to the perception that the encounter will end quickly (and of course always in our favor). Real encounters may take a little longer and therefore, require some conditioning.
There is that, as well lots of SD is overemphasise the gross motor skill high efficiency move which give the impression that it will all be over in one swift simple move that anybody can do.

Like Don said you do need a certain level of fitness and tanking.

It is true in SD, the physical abilities is as high a differentiator as it is in combat sport. But there is still a minimum to be had.

that being said trainning by isolation of component is a very effecieient way to train.

Phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:30 AM   #55
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
Often, I believe the training system that is often utilized of the "one and done" attack and response contributes to the perception that the encounter will end quickly (and of course always in our favor). Real encounters may take a little longer and therefore, require some conditioning.
How long in your opinion? just want to make sure I understand how long you think a fight might last and maybe also, the conditions in which you envision it...as that of course, affects things.

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Old 10-21-2009, 10:13 AM   #56
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
Often, I believe the training system that is often utilized of the "one and done" attack and response contributes to the perception that the encounter will end quickly (and of course always in our favor). Real encounters may take a little longer and therefore, require some conditioning.
Well if you're training the way you've described "One and Done" on the mat Then yes I can see how this would lead to some bad habits...That's the fault of the instructor more that anything else...Randori Anyone?

"Real encounters" is such a loaded scenario here in Aiki-Web...Under this generic description My Aikido has worked 99% of the time I have used it...

I know folks in their 50's 60's and 70's who practice Most of them appear to be a good shape for their age...Remember the goal of Aikido Practice is not always to "fight" or "kick ass"...I push myself pretty hard but I am still in piss poor shape, overweight, and getting over being really sick for almost a year now...I don't expect to hang with a 20 something Airborne Ranger Type Physical MMA Stud (yet ) so it had better be one and done LOL.

I always ask myself and others... If you Aikido Sucks Be honest about it....How much of it has to do with you? The Answer is is Obvious.

William Hazen
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Old 10-21-2009, 01:59 PM   #57
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

William Hazen wrote:

Quote:
don't expect to hang with a 20 something Airborne Ranger Type Physical MMA Stud (yet ) so it had better be one and done LOL.
...awww come on William...Ranger up bud.

"Recognizing that I volunteered....I will ALWAYS endeavor....."

All I can say is age and treachery...age and treachery....

ps...those 20 year old MMA Ranger types still kick my ass though!

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Old 10-21-2009, 04:23 PM   #58
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Do symbol Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
How long in your opinion? just want to make sure I understand how long you think a fight might last and maybe also, the conditions in which you envision it...as that of course, affects things.
I guess a stab in the dark might be say...........4 to 5 minutes--which I am guessing would seem like an eternity. Research may indicate two minutes or less--I cannot recall for sure--but I would rather prepare for the worst and hope for the best. It is difficult to say for sure.

I just feel that a one and done approach may leave one short changed in terms of stamina as well as mindset (ie This guy keeps coming at me). Also, this is to say nothing of executing tecniques after being hit the attacker coming at Nage with multiple strikes as opposed to a single attack.

I have encountered many a senior student who was had their Aikido world blown when that style of attack was put upon them. Perhaps unlike those who feel that under pressure, they will execute as they train, others feel that after enough training---even if not similar--the switch will just flip if the moment ever comes. I don't know.
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:44 PM   #59
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Thanks for the reply...hmmm 4 to 5 minutes...

I have neer seen a "fight" last that long. 10 to 20 seconds...30 on the longside....imo and experiences.

Go out on Youtube and take a look at the videos out there...even with all the chest bumping and shoving, I have never seen a fight go longer than a minute or two.

When I say 10-20 seconds, I am talking about actual, no kidding, another person trying to destroy, hurt, or injure someone else.

Even Kimbo Slice's longest fight on youtube is what like 3:42 and that is with all the pomp and circumstance that IS Kimbo Slice!

For me, I try and develop fighters on the 10-20 second model. Whoever is winning at that point will end the fight fairly quickly in reality typically...so you have to develop skills and ability to gain control rapidly and get in the dominate position.

Of course, there is always the chance that the guy won't quit, you don't want to hurt him, vice versa, the tie up in a headlock, kesa gatame.....and then things might go on a bit longer, but the actual fighting to gain dominance and control happens quickly, and once that happens, if someone is bent on ending it...well it usually doesn't take too long.

Anyway, of course, YMMV!

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Old 10-21-2009, 06:24 PM   #60
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Do symbol Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Thanks for the reply...hmmm 4 to 5 minutes...

I have neer seen a "fight" last that long. 10 to 20 seconds...30 on the longside....imo and experiences.

Go out on Youtube and take a look at the videos out there...even with all the chest bumping and shoving, I have never seen a fight go longer than a minute or two.

When I say 10-20 seconds, I am talking about actual, no kidding, another person trying to destroy, hurt, or injure someone else.

Even Kimbo Slice's longest fight on youtube is what like 3:42 and that is with all the pomp and circumstance that IS Kimbo Slice!

For me, I try and develop fighters on the 10-20 second model. Whoever is winning at that point will end the fight fairly quickly in reality typically...so you have to develop skills and ability to gain control rapidly and get in the dominate position.

Of course, there is always the chance that the guy won't quit, you don't want to hurt him, vice versa, the tie up in a headlock, kesa gatame.....and then things might go on a bit longer, but the actual fighting to gain dominance and control happens quickly, and once that happens, if someone is bent on ending it...well it usually doesn't take too long.

Anyway, of course, YMMV!
When I said 4-5 minutes (you will notice that I did mention the research of 2 min or less and I was not far off for the actual fight) I was referring to the entire interaction when your candle is burning bright, adrenaline pumping, expending a lot of energy not just the combat. Also, who knows, he might have a friend or two so a little left in the tank may not be a bad idea.
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:55 PM   #61
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Go out on Youtube and take a look at the videos out there...even with all the chest bumping and shoving, I have never seen a fight go longer than a minute or two.

When I say 10-20 seconds, I am talking about actual, no kidding, another person trying to destroy, hurt, or injure someone else.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbyFnrtUtJQ&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvlUcPmayPQ

Now you have...

Been there, done that...peace, harmony and yada-yada..whatever.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:46 AM   #62
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Thanks for the reply...hmmm 4 to 5 minutes...

I have neer seen a "fight" last that long. 10 to 20 seconds...30 on the longside....imo and experiences.

Go out on Youtube and take a look at the videos out there...even with all the chest bumping and shoving, I have never seen a fight go longer than a minute or two.

When I say 10-20 seconds, I am talking about actual, no kidding, another person trying to destroy, hurt, or injure someone else.

Even Kimbo Slice's longest fight on youtube is what like 3:42 and that is with all the pomp and circumstance that IS Kimbo Slice!

For me, I try and develop fighters on the 10-20 second model. Whoever is winning at that point will end the fight fairly quickly in reality typically...so you have to develop skills and ability to gain control rapidly and get in the dominate position.

Of course, there is always the chance that the guy won't quit, you don't want to hurt him, vice versa, the tie up in a headlock, kesa gatame.....and then things might go on a bit longer, but the actual fighting to gain dominance and control happens quickly, and once that happens, if someone is bent on ending it...well it usually doesn't take too long.

Anyway, of course, YMMV!
Hey now, this is aikido!

Sure it might be 10-15 seconds for a single person. But as an aikidoka, you know you will never face a single unarmed person. It's going to be 5+ all with weapons. So lets add 5-10 seconds a person because they are armed.

At least that is what I seem to be constantly told about self defense situations.

But seriously, my comment on physical fitness isn't about fighting. It's about taking care of yourself. To me self defense is a lot more then not getting into or stopping fights. It's about survival. The first step of survival is to make sure you are going to be a healthy human being. To me that means being a healthy weight, getting a healthy amount of exercise, and doing things that are good for my body. Once I've helped my body win it's fights, I can work on winning my own.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 10-22-2009, 07:11 AM   #63
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
When I said 4-5 minutes (you will notice that I did mention the research of 2 min or less and I was not far off for the actual fight) I was referring to the entire interaction when your candle is burning bright, adrenaline pumping, expending a lot of energy not just the combat. Also, who knows, he might have a friend or two so a little left in the tank may not be a bad idea.
Thanks for the clarification Jason. I undestand what you are saying now. That makes more sense to me now! There is a "bell curve" that applies to the whole of the situation for sure!

What is interesting though is when the front end of the bell curve is "lopped off" that is....you are ambushed and go from a state of disorientation/disconnect/dissonance, and you have to ramp up quickly...i.e...he/they is/are in the middle of the curve and you are still orienting to what is going on.

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Old 10-22-2009, 07:15 AM   #64
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Hey now, this is aikido!

Sure it might be 10-15 seconds for a single person. But as an aikidoka, you know you will never face a single unarmed person. It's going to be 5+ all with weapons. So lets add 5-10 seconds a person because they are armed.

At least that is what I seem to be constantly told about self defense situations.

But seriously, my comment on physical fitness isn't about fighting. It's about taking care of yourself. To me self defense is a lot more then not getting into or stopping fights. It's about survival. The first step of survival is to make sure you are going to be a healthy human being. To me that means being a healthy weight, getting a healthy amount of exercise, and doing things that are good for my body. Once I've helped my body win it's fights, I can work on winning my own.
oh I am with you on this one Don, and agree with your logic.

I used to be in the insurance business and I was always curious that folks would buy lots and lots of life insurance, but not disability insurance for $50.00 a month.

I'd explain the odds to them and they where willing to risk it.

These same people would spend the same money on a lottery ticket with the hopes of winning against odds that where just fricking nuts!

The psychology was that they could visualize themselves dead, they could visualize themselves winning the lottery.

What they could not visualize is becoming disabled, and if they did, they could figure a way around that financially.

The human mind works in the most bizzare ways!

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Old 10-27-2009, 05:06 PM   #65
Andrew Hinge
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Sebastian...... Aikido is what you yourself make of it.........its all to do with how you apply yourself to the learning cycle......do you train to keep fit, do you train to defend yourself, do you train to expand yourself....????? all of these are relevant but its all to do with your mental attitude. I have been practicing Aikido for 17 years......the first 10 without doing any gradings.......I used to do it five times a week during that first 10 years..... with different factions of aikido, unskilled, white belt grades, black belt grades , all round the country and even abroad........and it didnt stop there, even at home in the kitchen or even in the lounge watching television...i would sit on the floor with my legs outstretch and bending over to touch my toes or even to hold my self flat to the floor (eventually) .. when driving to a contract or any distance and caught up in a traffice jam I would be doing my wrist exercises.. all this leads to how I saw MY AIKIDO........To me Aikido is Aikido despite its faction.It all goes in to my brain and I always take something from it .
Take a look at.......all the Great Martial Artists......
Jean-Claude Van Damme,
Steven Seagal,
Jack Chan,
and even Bruce Lee
...they all include some aikido in with their Martial Art.
I have never pushed my self out to be someone that could beat anyone else that does some martial art, however I have had occasions whereby I was invited to attend a class or two to see how their martial art was made up and to show how i could apply my martial art against theirs, and if it is applied correctly and you are aware as you should be (as taught in most dojo's of Aikido) you can diffuse their attacks. I remember one such instance where i was invited by a guy I knew that ran a string of Korean Take Aways and he trained guys in his version of a korean martial art.... which was a bit like a cross between Karate,Judo,and Mua Tai, (I can't remember what he called it .. sorry) anyway after about 15 mins of watching him and his guys train...(and boy was it tough, and they went at it 'hell for leather'.. no messing about ) if the guys messed it up they actually got hit ... HARD..... I could go on about the symantics about watching how they didi it .. like their stances, timings etc.. but I wont.....what it came down to in the end was I was eventually asked to show how my Aikido would fair in that situation...all friendly like..which is what I was there to show......however most of the guys wanted to see how it would fair against a full blown attack.....like I said I am not big headed or anything like that.. but I do know my aikido... so i said ok .....Yan the sensei then came out onto the matted area he's 16 stone and me 11 stone..... (I remained completely calm and relaxed and I didnt think anything about beating him or him beating me) I would just show how my aikido would fair against his martial art.
He was on his back on the floor four times in fifteen seconds, and not one punch, kick, headbutt or elbow touched me.
Ever since that day Yan always calls me Aikido Man. I take that with affection.. there was no sense that I beat him, or that he lost.. it just proved that aikido is as good as the person that applies it correcly.

Treat your fellows with respect.
Contribute positively .

Regards
Andrew
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Old 10-30-2009, 05:01 PM   #66
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Aikido has long been plagued by the myth that it doesn't work. This has only gotten worse with the rise in popularity of MMA. Everyone thinks MMA is real fighting, which it is, but it's not street fighting. It's designed to simulate SOME of what a real fight between two skilled fighters would be like, with some rules thrown in for good measure. These days, so many people watch MMA and think they know lots of stuff, but most of them have never trained in anything and have no idea just how little they actually know. They think fighting is fighting is fighting and if it doesn't work in the cage with the cages rules, it's no good. Conversely, if it works in the cage, it must be effective in any scenario? This couldn't be further from the truth. What is a pure wrestler or BJJ guy going to do when someone starts something in a bar? He's going to take the guy down and control him, which he will probably do without issue. The only problem is that meatheads travel in packs and that guy could easily have a few buddies standing there that wrestler or bjj guy didn't notice while he was shooting for his legs. So while he's on the guys back choking him out, his buddies could easily come over and stomp his face. The same goes for an MT fighter. While he's not at the disadvantage of his style putting him on the ground in a fight, the style is focused on engaging with one target and finishing him. He's still in danger from other people in the area, weapons that the meathead might be carrying, etc. Aikido, on the other hand, trains you to deal with attackers without putting yourself at a disadvantage. Deal with the threat, painfully if need be, and be prepared for what may come next. That's something that is somewhat unique to Aikido compared to many other martial arts.

These same friends would have probably told you Karate was worthless too, before Lyoto Machida showed up using..karate, to pretty much dominate the LHW division. There's no difference in the Karate he uses vs. all those that come before him. He simply trained with a mindset towards using it in MMA fighting. Taking all the things that made Okinawan karate great and making them fit that type of fight. He also trained in lots of other things, so he knew what worked and what wouldn't. When you want to be prepared for as many scenarios as possible, cross-training is a good thing! Never be afraid to learn other things, it will only help you and your Aikido in the long run. Just take your time, train hard and be patient!

Aikido, to watch it, simply doesn't paint a powerful picture, especially when you don't understand the nuances. It also doesn't help that too many people have taken the Ki aspects and spirituality to a point that it overshadows the effectiveness of the waza. O'sensei didn't teach weak Aikido, ever, even in his final days. It may have looked pretty and flowing, but that simply highlights his mastery of the art. One thing that all of his students would tell you is that when he threw you, you felt it! Often times it felt like you got hit by a truck! That's a far cry from the image painted by those videos of him in his later years, but even in his final days few would have called his aikido "gentle"! Most all of his early students were ranked in other arts (judo, jujutsu, karate, etc). These guys didn't start training in Aikido because it was pretty, they trained because it worked! They took what they were doing seriously as a serious martial art capable of being used in any situation. If these skilled and trained fighting men believed in it, I think it's safe to say we can believe in it too! Again, it just comes down to how you train.

Since these guys are your friends, you have a resource available to you that not many people have. Watch them train when you can or maybe even train with them some. Learn what makes their style good and in turn, learn how to apply what you're learning (in aikido) to that style. As you improve, you will eventually start seeing things that you didn't see before and in time you will be able to maybe change your friends opinions of Aikido.
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Old 10-30-2009, 06:08 PM   #67
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Jason,

Your first paragraph...you make generalizations about people that do MMA, BJJ, MT, Wrestling etc....the same generalizations that you are arguing that others make of aikido. They are not necessarily true as most folks that I train with in these sports have a far more broader 'fight" perspective than what I have encountered in other TMA backgrounds such as Aikido. Generalizations just don't work.

Second paragraph. Machida is a very good fighter and employs some very good elements I am sure he has learned from his Karate training. I do the same. However, you are using the logic of association to validate a whole art based on one guy (Machida), poor logic. Machida is a good fighter because he has trained to be a good fighter, and alot of other factors too..but those things only apply to Machida. They don't validate the whole art. Poor logic.

You can draw the same exact parallel to BJJ in the UFC, actually more so, since you find more folks using that as a baseline than karate. However, you also threw out the UFC as a model of "real fighting" so why would you return to that again as a model in the second paragraph to imply the validity of Karate?

Third paragraph. Again, validating by association. O Sensei was probably a good martial artist from all the accounts we have and from our various experiences with his direct students. I believe that is assumed by most of us these days. However, as in the Machida example, he was good because he was good, not because Aikido was good. Why he "invented" aikido? well that is a big debate all the time. I believe he was trying to transcend somethings that were much different than fighting. It was probably implied that you had baseline abilities when you came to study with him, or life was very difficult for you until you obtained those skills.

His students did study other arts. I believe they probably came to aikido for the same reasons I am doing it today, not for the fact that it is complete (it is not), or a higher form of fighting (it is not), but it is/was a good methodology for refinement and mastery of a particular way of doing stuff.

I think it is poor logic to assume all these good judoka etc came to aikido because it was somehow superior in it's effectiveness. I bet that thought probably was never even debated as they understood what they were there to work on having the ability to fight already.

I am not so sure you can say that about the average aikidoka off the street today.

You talk about believing in it...

What is it that you believe in? What is the measures you have established to quantify the effectiveness?

Without establishing a sound, logical, and measurable system of evaluation we cannot really have an intelligent discussion about what good aikido will do for us...THEN we can have faith.

I have wasted way too much time in martial arts over the years using this very kind of logic which is essentially "blind faith".

Sorry to be so negative in my reply, but hopefully it is constructive too!

I had a guy sit down with me a few years ago and kinda lay it out this way for me and it was a big Duh! moment for me!

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Old 10-30-2009, 06:48 PM   #68
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbyFnrtUtJQ&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvlUcPmayPQ

Now you have...

Been there, done that...peace, harmony and yada-yada..whatever.

Train well,

Mickey
The one where the perp gets shot is interesting...

Perp bent over hood of car with officer in control ... oops that didn't seem to help.

Pepper spray ... oops, that doesn't seem to help.

Run away, slip and fall down. Perp on top. That didn't work.

Wrestle, wrestle, shoot perp at point blank range. MISSED! Shoot again and hit perp in the belly.. that doesn't work very well. Shoot again ... gun jams!

PERP TAKES GUN! Run around a bit and then get punched as few times. Not much working here ...

Officer seems gassed at this point and barely attempts to defend self. A bit of wobbling around then back up arrives.

Lesson 1: When control is established maintain control or suffer.
Lesson 2: Pepper spray ... tastes good on toast.
Lesson 3: Running away may not be a viable option.
Lesson 4: Marksmanship is best practiced as close range.
Lesson 5: Maintain your weapon in perfect working condition at all times.
Lesson 6: Weapon retention techniques are actually really important. Practice, practice and practice some more.
Lesson 7: Always end the fight as aggressively as possible. One and down is good but 40 and some more is not.
Lesson 8: Conditioning and cardio will be required if any of the previous 7 lessons are not put into effective action. If all you tolls and training fail then the one with the best conditioning will prevail-evan a big fat ex-boxer can have decent conditioning.
Lesson 9: Have some friends close by for backup.

I did not see any aikido in the vid at least none that I've ever practiced. If one thinks aikido does not work then one must conclude that whatever the officer in the video was doing is not a valid system either.

In the aikido I've been taught all 9 of the above lessons (and many others) have been taught at great length. I will admit that after 2 minutes of vigorous ukemi I'm gassed-working on that.

Train well, indeed.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 10-30-2009, 07:22 PM   #69
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

I got the impression Jason was basically saying it all depends on how one applies whatever it is they're learning and that the validity of what one's learning is based on the context in which it's being used.
My view is that systems are basically empty. You don't get anything from a system. You get something from the people you train with and how much you're able to pick up from them...and on your own, since we're also learning how to master our own bodies.

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Old 10-30-2009, 07:22 PM   #70
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Then I'd say you have a pretty good system of study!

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Old 10-30-2009, 07:29 PM   #71
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I got the impression Jason was basically saying it all depends on how one applies whatever it is they're learning and that the validity of what one's learning is based on the context in which it's being used.
My view is that systems are basically empty. You don't get anything from a system. You get something from the people you train with and how much you're able to pick up from them...and on your own, since we're also learning how to master our own bodies.
okay...sounds good Matthew.

Context is very important. If your goal is to learn effectiveness within a set of conditions or parameters, I believe it is actually not too hard to train to develop skills that will help you manage those situations as best as one might be able to manage them.

Principles are very important, however, I would submit that Principles that are embodied in the right context is even more important.

So, the people you are training with my be the best in the business and be very good at (insert martial art here), however, if they have not trained within that context, or understand all salient risk and all the things that impact that context, then you are not really going to pick up much that is useful to help you in reality.

I have met some very talented men/women that are at the top of their art, however, they could not apply it very well, or could they teach it very well in a given situation/context.

If someone is able to "pick up" something from them, it would be by almost shear luck in those situations.

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Old 10-30-2009, 07:31 PM   #72
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

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Then I'd say you have a pretty good system of study!
Now I just have to actually study!
...one of those minor details.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 10-30-2009 at 07:34 PM.

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Old 10-30-2009, 08:13 PM   #73
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

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okay...sounds good Matthew.

Context is very important. If your goal is to learn effectiveness within a set of conditions or parameters, I believe it is actually not too hard to train to develop skills that will help you manage those situations as best as one might be able to manage them.

Principles are very important, however, I would submit that Principles that are embodied in the right context is even more important.

So, the people you are training with my be the best in the business and be very good at (insert martial art here), however, if they have not trained within that context, or understand all salient risk and all the things that impact that context, then you are not really going to pick up much that is useful to help you in reality.

I have met some very talented men/women that are at the top of their art, however, they could not apply it very well, or could they teach it very well in a given situation/context.

If someone is able to "pick up" something from them, it would be by almost shear luck in those situations.
Well said, Kevin! Good points. I guess part of the trick to maximizing our training is to find a nice blend of contextual lessons (so we're familiar with those contexts we're likely to find ourselves in) with the principle-based lessons (which I take to imply a kind of universal quality).
One of the things that stands out to me from my short time with Peter Rehse and the Shodokan method was that idea of principled movement: taking a few simple lessons and applying them to, well, every other situation...things like unbalancing, constantly filling in openings, etc. Not that I'm particularly good at any of those things, just that as an approach, I think it's a very good way to go.
After that I think it's a matter of both finding folks who can pinpoint our errors in a way we can understand, and finding folks who have a detailed familiarity with the principles themselves.
as it relates to the thread I suppose part of the reason this perception about Aikido exists is because of the difference between the pretty waza we see and the not-so-pretty results that comes about in more organic situations. I've always been taught it's about making it work though. I remember I guy that came into Kannagara dojo and asked a sempai what he would do in X situation. Sempai tried it out and it took a minute before he was able to make something work. To me, that has always epitomized what training is.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 10-30-2009 at 08:19 PM.

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Old 10-30-2009, 08:39 PM   #74
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

Quote:
as it relates to the thread I suppose part of the reason this perception about Aikido exists is because of the difference between the pretty waza we see and the not-so-pretty results that comes about in more organic situations
I think there are several reasons AIkido in general has this perception.

1. the common man has an idea about what fighting should look like, or what they want it to look like.

2. We have grown up on the myth of martial arts ala Bruce Lee and the Karate Kid.

3. We logically expect that #2 should be in synchronization with #1.

4. We have people out there that teach #2 and really don't go too much out of their way to explain to folks clearly about this issue between #1 and #2. Either they don't understand what the hell they are doing...or they are more conscious of it, but let the myth lay there anyway (hey it pays the bills!)

5. People apply #2 to #1 and when it don't work..they logically state that is crap cause it did not help them with #1.

..and the legacy of misinformation continues.

I think, however, if Budo and AIkido are framed with the correct expectations and within the context of what really is about, then there is no issues if students clearly understand it.

But, then again, not all the blame is on the instructor....people hear what they want to hear and will continue to project whatever it is they want to believe.

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Old 10-30-2009, 09:23 PM   #75
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Re: Why do people think Aikido does not work?

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....people hear what they want to hear and will continue to project whatever it is they want to believe.
I think this is why shoshin and mushin are the keys to progress. All our experience and skill is an impediment to progress because it 'colors' what we see next. One must always keep an open mind and constantly question what we think we know. This is not doubt but scrutiny and constructive criticism. Easy to apply to others but hard to apply to oneself.

It does not matter what art one studies mindlessly - it will always fail.

I know and work with a great many very talented people in a technical field that constantly produce just mediocre or failed solutions based on previous but similar problems. Aikido is no different than any other pursuit of excellence. If one does not strive to be the best then the results will be ho hum.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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