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Old 10-05-2009, 07:00 PM   #51
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: How does Aikido work?

He didn't actually dodge them...he actually did irimi at the exact right time and tapped the bullet on the side deflecting it's path ever so slightly, establishing a ground path with it he was able to redirect the kinetic energy by loading it onto his frame, upon which O'Sensei promptly used kokyu and directed the bullet at the wall behind him. You can catch this on stop action tape, if not, then it looks like he dodge it cause it happens so fast.

They tried this with Chuck Norris as well, but they could not ascertain exactly what was going on as it appeared that Chuck actually just stared down the bullet and it moved around Chuck.

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Old 10-05-2009, 07:13 PM   #52
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
OK, Kevin - Cherie just verified the meaning of the word "dodging". Like I said before, I am not interested in discussion about semantic. Going further - I didn't say that aikido is about dodging. I clearly gave a statement than aikido without dodging doesn't make any sense. For me, aikido is not about fighting, but about killing in the blink of an eye. BTW, do you know "senior" and "experienced" folks in aikido who share my point of view?
I am not sure exactly what your view is on this I guess. Is it that Aikido does not make sense if you don't first get out of the way of the attack?

Well there is alot going on in the study of the relationship between uke and nage for sure, so no wonder there is room for alot of interpretation.

I am a fan of Boyd's OODA concept, which essentially says that in order to win or control your opponent or the fight you have to get inside your opponents loop and force them to react to you. Fighter pilot tactics, but also applicable to person to person fighting as well.

Evasion or dodging is reactive, which means that your opponent is in control of the situation and until you can turn the corner and get inside his loop, then you are going to remain behind and he is controlling the fight.

One of the wonderful things I think about arts such as Aikido and say Kendo is that we literally study this deeply as a big part of the philosophy is the "one cut, one chance" mentality of what we do.

Dodging or moving off the line does not force any control or turn any table for you and therefore, you opponent still holds all the cards. Attach a sword on the end of it, and it is over for you.

Therefore, ideally, we begin closing the loop and controlling uke before the engagement actually happens, we move in such a way that uke's attack has to start changing as he is attacking to account for the fact that you are moving and entering.

Once he begins to react to you...again, before contact is even made, you are in control of the fight at that very point.

You can't do this with a "dodging" or "move off the line" mentality.

Moving off the line is a part of it in many cases, but moving off the line is secondary to entering IMO.

Do I know of any sensei that shares your point of view?

I don't know, I think if you describe it as I have above most agree with me, and would say, that this is the correct way to view it.

If there are teachers out there that believe something other than that...I don't know.

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Old 10-05-2009, 07:22 PM   #53
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Re: How does Aikido work?

I tend to agree w/ Kevin.
It seems to me I was taught as a newbie to "get off the line" in order to instill the idea of not standing rooted and directly clashing. Maybe in early days of training it makes sense to be taught to break down an entering into an "off the line" then an "enter" in order to make sure there is no direct clash
But I think we need to train to get past this stage. This is to me another example of why weapons training cannot start too early!

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Old 10-05-2009, 07:29 PM   #54
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Re: How does Aikido work?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
They tried this with Chuck Norris as well, but they could not ascertain exactly what was going on as it appeared that Chuck actually just stared down the bullet and it moved around Chuck.
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:42 PM   #55
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
They tried this with Chuck Norris as well, but they could not ascertain exactly what was going on as it appeared that Chuck actually just stared down the bullet and it moved around Chuck.
You mean like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uMlNKozweg#t=0m36s

Quote:
He didn't actually dodge them...he actually did irimi at the exact right time and tapped the bullet on the side deflecting it's path ever so slightly, establishing a ground path with it he was able to redirect the kinetic energy by loading it onto his frame, upon which O'Sensei promptly used kokyu and directed the bullet at the wall behind him. You can catch this on stop action tape, if not, then it looks like he dodge it cause it happens so fast
Just goes to show, one can read almost anything into anything.

All of the elements discussed thus far, are only a small aspect of what essentially constitutes "basic MA". Don't get me wrong, you need those. But it isn't what necessarily makes it Aikido, or even necessarily what makes it work.

My point is... the change of angle of deflection needed to "get off the line" is so small that you can "get off the line" without "dodging". But that isn't "aiki"... it's just basic MA.

What makes it "aiki" is something else altogether....

Ignatius
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:13 PM   #56
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Re: How does Aikido work?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I am not sure exactly what your view is on this I guess.
I am sorry Kevin. Your guess is correct. End of discussion.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:39 PM   #57
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Sorry to see this thread end..highly entertaining, a nice mix of anger, confusion, a blatant disregard for logic, and cross cultural miscommunication.

Stay Cut,

The Hebrew Hammer
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:32 PM   #58
Janet Rosen
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
My experience with tenkan last night seemed to work best when there was a slight withdrawal at the moment of connection before the irimi and tenkan occurred.
Cherie, couple of observations:

1. Re the irimi in tenkan: consider a quick u-turn in the middle of a 2 way street to claim a parking spot (you knew I'm from Brooklyn, right?). It is a classic tenkan but it is pure entry from start to finish.

2. It sounds like you are starting to notice some things I've played with a bit. So you might find something helpful from a column I wrote a few yrs ago. It has to do with weighting and initiating movement with one hip versus the other as a way to move forward (irimi) even as the result might be a step back: [SIZE=2]"One night, I go home after parking and think about how to translate this into body movement. I stand, eyes closed, and visualize/feel an entering turn. My hip moves forward as I start to pivot. This reveals that, unwittingly, I have often initiated the same turn with the other hip moving backwards....this is probably because I'm already thinking ahead to the "step back" to come. Over and over, first with my eyes closed, then watching myself in a mirror, I compare how it feels to initiate tenkan with the front hip versus the back hip. Then I try it in the dojo with a partner during tai no henko. It makes a difference; even though the eye doesn't see which hip is initiating the movement, your attitude and posture and timing are all altered, and uke feels a difference.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]I think this invisible but palpable forward movement may be related to what Chuck Clark refers to when he says, "Think small irimi which enters into the uke's space just enough that they cannot complete their movement without changing something." It's like a little, unexpected disruption in uke's world.[/SIZE]

Janet Rosen
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:40 PM   #59
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Re: How does Aikido work?

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... a nice mix of anger, confusion, a blatant disregard for logic, and cross cultural miscommunication.
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Old 10-06-2009, 12:38 AM   #60
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Re: How does Aikido work?

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Reading thru some of the preceding posts, is like listening to a bunch of blind folk describing what the elephant looks like...

Dan has succinctly summed it up in one sentence. The question should be "how do I make my aikido work... with aiki?"

As for Ueshiba dodging bullets... is that aiki?
Well lacking any "Aiki" my Aikido works just fine...

Perhaps the question should be What are the components of "working" Aikido. LOL

William Hazen
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Old 10-06-2009, 12:41 AM   #61
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Kevin Hagens wrote: View Post
Sorry to see this thread end..highly entertaining, a nice mix of anger, confusion, a blatant disregard for logic, and cross cultural miscommunication.
making yourself right at the expense of making someone else "wrong" is not Aikido thats for sure.

William Hazen
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:55 AM   #62
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Re: How does Aikido work?

From my standpoint aikido works because:
1. Distance and timing. From a martial perspective we are talking engaging and distance to contact.
2. Mechanical advantage. Aikido employs mechanical advantage like rotation, cams, levers, and lifts. One force applied to another force to create a vector. Mechanical functions to reduce work. Application of pressure to weaker points. Breaking balance to reduce force.
3. Human condition. The human body reacts to situations, sometimes involuntarily. Aikido uses conditioned response to create vulnerability. The ki part is here too; as we react to others and cause others to react to us.

It isn't like these elements don't appear in every martial art...ever. They do. Points 1 and 3 give us trouble when we move outside the dojo atmosphere. We train in the dojo and sometimes exaggerate these points, which can result in falsified training (or exaggerated at best).

Aikido is capable of training from more worldly application, but you are changing curriculum. I think Ledyard sensei has some great posts on that topic.

In response to whether "dodge" is accurate to describe aikido movement, I believe a key component to the evasion maneuver is to apply an affecting force to the attack. In his book, Dan Linden refers to this engagement as "caming" and I like that term better than dodging. Dodging does not possess an element of affection and is possibly why so many opposes it to describe aikido movement. Semantics it may be, but we need to define a thing in order to discuss it. For example, I have yet to see a shidan move as haphazardly as to "dodge" an attack.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:31 PM   #63
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Re: How does Aikido work?

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Dodging does not possess an element of affection and is possibly why so many opposes it to describe aikido movement.
Yes, exactly.

kvaak
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:12 PM   #64
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Semantics it may be, but we need to define a thing in order to discuss it.
Sorry, I thought it was obvious. By dodge, I understand the action or movement, so as not to be purposely affected by someone in any way, e.g. by the grab, hit, kick, cutting or thrust.
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:19 PM   #65
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Tenkai, Tenkan, Irimi...
I don't like the term "dodge", personally, but entering directly in opposition to the forces being applied in an attack means clash and impact. No matter how slight the deflection / force couple / "shear" (although I think "shear" is also an inappropriate term), it still involves "getting off line," or "dodging," or re-directing. I think what's at fault here is the degree of "off line" being interpreted in the word "dodge".
Irimi yes, but two objects cannot occupy the same space - at least not with current technology - so the irimi must involve some degree of "dodge", no matter how small, and no matter what it is called by people who know how to search wikipedia.

W
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:28 PM   #66
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Re: How does Aikido work?

The way I see it at this point in my training is - if my irimi is on time, it's uke who has to dodge...no clash, but it's not because I got out of the way. Instead, I enter to where uke was planning to be, only I get there first, so they have to accommodate that, which takes uke out of balance.
Something like that, not really good at explaining stuff like this.

kvaak
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Old 10-08-2009, 11:43 AM   #67
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Re: How does Aikido work?

"...I believe a key component to the evasion maneuver is to apply an affecting force to the attack."

To elaborate on this point, I find that when I attack and my partner has correctly entered (irrimi) I react to her movement and become off-balanced. If a counter accompanies the irrmi movement, I find myself reacting to that attack as well. The feeling is more than just moving out of the way, nage is affecting my balance and structure. So the affection is applied by nage to uke - This is more that a simple evasive move.
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Old 10-08-2009, 03:42 PM   #68
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
The way I see it at this point in my training is - if my irimi is on time, it's uke who has to dodge...no clash, but it's not because I got out of the way. Instead, I enter to where uke was planning to be, only I get there first, so they have to accommodate that, which takes uke out of balance.
Something like that, not really good at explaining stuff like this.

kvaak
Pauliina
I agree with this. you have to primarily affect uke first and foremost regardless.

Sure two objects cannot occupy the same space. That is why you need to affect uke and not the other way around. It does not have to be necessarily physical first either.

On a simplistic level, we think that we have to move our feet in order to NOT occupy the same space, this is not entirely true either. You can stand your ground and uke can also go up and down as well as left and right.

If I enter first and affect nage..this causes him/her to react and move. I occupy the space first then uke responds. No dodging necessary there.

If uke beats me to the place and he has the upper hand, then I have to move elsewhere or move uke elsewhere...either way.

Lets say that I have to move as I simply was not skilled enough or quick enough, or preceptive enough to beat uke to that space. Well sometimes you lose and then you must move on. This might be called dodging, evading, moving away...okay yes...but it is not a PRIMARY action, but a secondary one. Not one that is set on my success. Couple that with a sword and I am dead. So, I see it vital to establish dominance.

Lets say I survive that move....then I have to move again to try and gain back my dominance. I am always PRIMARILY trying to enter and close first, when I can't and I am losing..well yes, I am dodging of course...but this is SECONDARY and will not lead to my "winning" until I re-establish dominance.

The point is, that dodging is not a winning strategy, but a losing one...always. So, I cringe when I hear that Aikido is a defensive art that envolves evasion, dodging or what not as it is not correct. Sure you can do it that way, but it will always invovle the other guy winning, or getting bored with you and moving on to something else.

Okay, you might go "cool, I resolved the situation defensively". Well, that is not true IMO, Uke did, not you. Uke made the choice to stop fighitng for some reason that you played no part in really. You may have the illusion that you caused him to stop, but the reality of it is that it was uke's choice...not yours.

That is the paradox and the problem I see with this mentality and paradigm.

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Old 10-12-2009, 09:42 AM   #69
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I agree with this. you have to primarily affect uke first and foremost regardless.

Sure two objects cannot occupy the same space. That is why you need to affect uke and not the other way around. It does not have to be necessarily physical first either.

On a simplistic level, we think that we have to move our feet in order to NOT occupy the same space, this is not entirely true either. You can stand your ground and uke can also go up and down as well as left and right.

If I enter first and affect nage..this causes him/her to react and move. I occupy the space first then uke responds. No dodging necessary there.

If uke beats me to the place and he has the upper hand, then I have to move elsewhere or move uke elsewhere...either way.

Lets say that I have to move as I simply was not skilled enough or quick enough, or preceptive enough to beat uke to that space. Well sometimes you lose and then you must move on. This might be called dodging, evading, moving away...okay yes...but it is not a PRIMARY action, but a secondary one. Not one that is set on my success. Couple that with a sword and I am dead. So, I see it vital to establish dominance.

Lets say I survive that move....then I have to move again to try and gain back my dominance. I am always PRIMARILY trying to enter and close first, when I can't and I am losing..well yes, I am dodging of course...but this is SECONDARY and will not lead to my "winning" until I re-establish dominance.

The point is, that dodging is not a winning strategy, but a losing one...always. So, I cringe when I hear that Aikido is a defensive art that envolves evasion, dodging or what not as it is not correct. Sure you can do it that way, but it will always invovle the other guy winning, or getting bored with you and moving on to something else.

Okay, you might go "cool, I resolved the situation defensively". Well, that is not true IMO, Uke did, not you. Uke made the choice to stop fighitng for some reason that you played no part in really. You may have the illusion that you caused him to stop, but the reality of it is that it was uke's choice...not yours.

That is the paradox and the problem I see with this mentality and paradigm.
Hello
I think you are spot on Kev. I quite like Georges Silver concept of true place to describe that.

It is really important to understand that by over extending or over comiting uke is giving us the space, just as if we had taken it away from him.
It martial valid, it is just that especially in aikido, it is seen as being the "norm" where it is just one the possibilities.

This vid is about medieval wrestling but it is really aiki o tohi and irimi nague koshi done from different distances

phil

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Old 10-12-2009, 12:53 PM   #70
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Wow I dig where this thread is now going.

Cool Stuff my Brothers and Sisters....

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Old 10-13-2009, 12:22 AM   #71
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Sure two objects cannot occupy the same space. That is why you need to affect uke and not the other way around. It does not have to be necessarily physical first either.
The closest we come to occupying the same physical space is the edge contact of two blades shearing in one plane past one another in kiri-otoshi, or suri-age. That is the secret. It works to dominate in one unopposed cut -- if one shapes from the center and projects it outward.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
On a simplistic level, we think that we have to move our feet in order to NOT occupy the same space, this is not entirely true either. You can stand your ground and uke can also go up and down as well as left and right.

If I enter first and affect nage..this causes him/her to react and move. I occupy the space first then uke responds. No dodging necessary there.
The problem is in seeing the nature of the blades' shearing action in massy, wibbly-wobbly objects, instead of nicely sharpened metal edges. There are wobbly fluid "objects," in fact, that shear past one another all the time and actually DO "occupy" the same space - often going in opposite directions. They are called waves. The shear is the top going one way and the bottom going the other way. And actually, the substance of the wave only goes up and down again in a circle. It is the motion of the water that combines and then separates in the same place -- not the substance of the water, but its the angular or rotational momentum as a direct quantity. A wave is nothing but its momentum.

With this understanding, all the timey-wimey interaction, early, same time, or late -- is the same. Uke expects his own peak energy -- he is even prepared for peak energy opposed to his. He is not prepared for a sudden engagement with his peak energy that is not opposing but meshing with it -- carrying it where he did not intend. I described this in response to a specific technique some time back.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
The point is, that dodging is not a winning strategy, but a losing one...always. So, I cringe when I hear that Aikido is a defensive art that envolves evasion, dodging or what not as it is not correct.
Can I have an "Amen?!"

Last edited by Erick Mead : 10-13-2009 at 12:25 AM.

Cordially,

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Old 10-13-2009, 06:17 AM   #72
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Re: How does Aikido work?

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello
I think you are spot on Kev. I quite like Georges Silver concept of true place to describe that.

It is really important to understand that by over extending or over comiting uke is giving us the space, just as if we had taken it away from him.
It is martialy valid, it is just that especially in aikido, it is seen as being the "norm" where it is just one the possibilities.

This vid is about medieval wrestling but it is really aiki o tohi and irimi nague koshi done from different distances

phil
and that is the vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K63uNMGTGc8

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Old 10-13-2009, 06:24 AM   #73
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Nice video. I lost a No Gi fight this weekend from a greco roman tie up and a hip toss just like the one in your video. Guy got a real clean throw on me!

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