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Old 04-18-2002, 11:33 AM   #26
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768
To my way of thinking, in a training environment, safety comes first.

That is what we're talking about, right? A training environment. Not "self-defense" or competition (or did I miss something?) The instructor (sensei, shihan, insert title here) is responsible for creating an environment where mutual respect and mutual development occurs. IMO, if the individual in charge cannot do that, or is unwilling to that, they should get off the mat.

Of course, that doesn't absolve students from responsibility for their actions, behaviour or attitude. The point is, there is one person in charge, the instructor, and the buck stops there for disputes and resolutions.

For students, I cannot help but think of the advice all boxers receive when they enter the ring: protect yourself at all times.

The second rule for students is: protect your partner at all times. There are no accidents, only careless actions.

This is something that's getting easier to do as I get older: If I suspect that someone is more concerned about being "right" or "showing the technique does/doesn't work" than they are about my personal safety, I won't train with them. I don't care who they are or what qualifications they have.

So for me, personally, the first time I felt my safety was a secondary concern for my partner, I'm going to say something. The second time, I'm done. I'm not training with them again. This is, after all, a training environment. If my partner feels compelled to prove something, I'm game, but not during training...never during training.

IMO, at least.

The situation that was originally described would not happen with any of the bjj instructors I have trained with (although I did witness it in aikido and judo). One of those two students (possibly both) would have been told by the instructor to behave. If that didn't end things, there is a fine tradition disciplining students in the manner Mr. Ledyard described, or expelling students.


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Old 04-18-2002, 01:01 PM   #27
Doug Mathieu
Dojo: Aikido Bozankan
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 64
meeting the challenge

Hi Jon

Haven't seen you for a while but have thought about you. Next time I'm in town I'll try to get out to the Dojo.

If you are talking about who I think you are then we both know the persons personality.

He is not only rude physically but verbally. However I would not want to lower myself to that standard. Even though I would understand the mudansha's feelings. I would hope not to give in to the temptation to give back what I'm getting.

I think the mudansha did the right thing in finally excusing himself then apoligizing later. It shows his innner quality coming to the fore.

If faced with the same situation I would try to continue to train in a good manner and maybe even exagerate the politeness to make a point. Although it may be lost on the Yudansha.

Some time ago I shared my feelings regarding rude and offensive behaviour from a person, with a senior Instructor. He made a remark that I liked and that was there are ***holes in all martial arts including Aikido. You can learn something from all of them even if only how not to act.

Hopr all is going well for you.
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Old 04-18-2002, 02:33 PM   #28
Johan Tibell
Dojo: Aikido Dojo Gamlestaden
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 56
Originally posted by Hanna B

Johan, what scope of time are you talking about for this larger divergence to happen?

I stated that I think there's a (large) difference between people within the same rank, I didn't not say when I thought this happened. I just shared what I felt practicing at large training camps such as last time doshu visited or the yearly training camp this year held in Malmo. Of course all this is IMHO.

- Johan

Pour your spirit and heart
Into daily technical training
To approach the many through a single principle
This is "The Way of the Fighting Man"
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Old 04-19-2002, 03:31 PM   #29
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
About the terry dobson quote

Remember ...

you are doing a martial art.

always protect yourself,

even when leaving other openings.

If the other children can not play nice, and it is rough, then that is what it is.

Of course, they usually cry foul when you use their own tricks or better upon them, but then it is protect yourself, isn't it?

I am glad we have gone beyond some of the old ways.

Maybe they play nice because the gorilla is playing nice, too?

(always have some backround techniques from selfprotection and the book of dirty tricks in your back pocket.)
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Old 04-21-2002, 12:21 AM   #30
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 647
Originally posted by Johan Tibell

I stated that I think there's a (large) difference between people within the same rank, I didn't not say when I thought this happened.
Your previous post could be interpreted as you watching a gradual change over the years. Thank you for your clarification.

I just shared what I felt practicing at large training camps such as last time doshu visited or the yearly training camp this year held in Malmo. Of course all this is IMHO.

By the camps you mention (Doshu and our bi- or triannual all-Swedish-aikido-together-camps), it seems the time period of you changing your mind is the one of you starting to visit also non-Iwama style events... (please notice I'm saying Iwama style, not Iwama Ryu) I originally thought you were referring to level differences within your own school, such as people getting grades mainly due to time of training.

I like both apples and pears, but judged by the standard of apples all pears are faulty. I could add IMHO and smilies after this, but it wouldn't be truly honest so I skipped that.

Best regards
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