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Old 04-15-2002, 04:58 PM   #1
Bruce Baker
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Practice with hurting others..

If you could practice Aikido at the greatest intensity you could muster, with absolute intent in every move while knowing you could never hurt your partner/partners no matter how intensely you trained .... would you master Aikido quicker?

("Master" being in the eyes of others, as you can never satisfy yourself no matter how good you get.)

Literally, your partner/partners would be impervious to harm/injury in this theoretical moot point of conjecture?
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Old 04-15-2002, 05:46 PM   #2
shihonage
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If I was Superman, I would use my powers to turn back time and erase the above post.
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Old 04-15-2002, 06:30 PM   #3
lt-rentaroo
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No.

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 04-15-2002, 10:35 PM   #4
Deb Fisher
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Um, I'm kind of new to this, but I have the distinct feeling when I train that one of the most important things I'm learning is how to read and understand my partner's body. I'm training to understand that feeling of connection, and if I didn't care about whether I hurt my partner I couldn't access that relationship.

I mean, my sensai says that aikido is not about kicking anybody's ass.

And so I wonder - if the goal is not to win, then why bother getting into an intimate physical situation if you don't intend to learn anything from that intimacy?

Respectfully,
Deb

Deb Fisher
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Old 04-16-2002, 04:56 AM   #5
Kenn
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*sigh*

*Just shaking my head*.....someday you'll get it bruce...someday.....

Peace, Kenn

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:00 AM   #6
Jorx
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Quote:
would you master Aikido quicker?


Nope.

Because:
a) It wouldn't be true Aikido (the spiritual aspect - it is about harmony and not harming anyone... what sense would it make if it would be impossible to do that)
b) It wouldn't be true Aikido (the physical aspect - we need to know the limit when something cracks and if in training it would be impossible it would be HARDER to learn)

Quote:
("Master" being in the eyes of others, as you can never satisfy yourself no matter how good you get.)


I think a true master is always content with himself in his own eyes as this is the very current state. And the eyes of others are no indication for his "mastery".

Never satisfied no matter how good you get - oh this sounds just so western and materialistic... I need to buy another car...


Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:47 AM   #7
erikmenzel
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Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:48 AM   #8
andrew
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Re: Practice with hurting others..

This could only mean a beginner practicing by giving ukemi to shihans. Of course you'd learn quicker, but not because of anything you were doing. Because of who you'd have to be training with, and they'd stop you training at comic book intensity anyhow.


andrew
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Old 04-16-2002, 06:23 AM   #9
Bruce Baker
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Practice reading before responding

I see we have those who consider the dark side of words without reading the text that follows.


Read the question.

Full intensity Aikido.

You could never hurt your partners.

Just becaust the headline is a query into the concerns of full intensity Aikido and the safety concerns I have, do not think I wish to hurt others. Quite the opposite.

Please consider this ...

We all have a dark side we see in ourselves ... our imperfect self. When we see this imperfect self in others it brings out hatred and disgust. Of course, this is the eternal battle of polishing our own spirit, our own lives with Aikido. This is the only thing we all need to "GET" when doing Aikido.

My ultimate concern is for safety ... always.

Once you have thrown someone hard enough to break bones and put them in the hospital without Aikido as I have done, your concern for safety is that much more intense as your learn Aikido harmony that multiplies that strength?

Again:

If you could do full intensity Aikido knowing you could NEVER hurt your Partner/partners ....

Posing of the question is, for me, a totally letting go of restraint to allow the Aikido to carry to its FULL effect ... not the 10%-40% of effort that I use in practice /opposed to not modifying throws or practice to an ukes movement or their attempt to remain in contol/stay ahead of the technique?
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Old 04-16-2002, 07:20 AM   #10
Bruce Baker
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Clarity to question

Suppose ... you were twice as strong as anyone in your dojo or anyone you knew, theoretically of course.

The partners you practiced with were the like of an adult teaching in a 9year old to 13 year old childrens class.

Do you have that picture? Fully grown adults, half or less in strength and sometimes the clumsy responses of young teen pre- teen in full effort throws. (which is normal kyu training/safe practice training)

If you use your 'better to best' effort, surely even good ukemi will barely keep your partner safe ... so you always hold back.

But... suppose we could change the parameters of safety?

If you knew you could not injure your partner, and vice versa, would training at this level help you to master Aikido?

(Point of the question being to forget about the self and put maximum effort into every movement. Change the parameters of danger or remove them. How much more intense could your practice be?)
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Old 04-16-2002, 07:31 AM   #11
lt-rentaroo
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Bruce, thank you for clarifying the question. However, I still say no. Intense training does not necessarily lead to mastery. I've visited dojo where the workout was intense, but the Aikido (in my own opinion) was not nearly as good as dojo I've visited where the intensity was lower. The reason is simple, by creating an artificially intense workout, free from the possibility of hurting your partner, you will undoubtedly begin to use more of your own force and energy when throwing your partner; in effect, "muscling" your partner, instead of using the force or strength your partner gives to you. And learning to use what your partner gives to you, and effectively redirecting/blending is one of the foundations of Aikido.

Oh, and I work children (some as young as 7) all the time. I find that working with them makes my Aikido better for several reasons. One of which, is by working with them, I'm forced to be more careful and blend, redirect more effectively. Children are like rubber chickens, they will move wherever you want them to. It takes lots of practice to move them where you want them to be using only the energy they give you and not just "muscling" them around.

Last edited by lt-rentaroo : 04-16-2002 at 07:36 AM.

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:27 PM   #12
Bruce Baker
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Again ... more clarity

Using complete harmony of movement.

Not forcing.

Not muscling.

Not trying to break Aikido's leads, circles, or trying to induce another style.

But reaching the level of 100% more than you ever thought possible.

If you are aware of the slight change in angles in throws that will give ukemi or a I have seen in another thread "Sacrifice throws" then you know about the difference in letting go with fear or too much force?

If we eliminate this danger of injury in theory, does that allow the practice of using ki beyond a minor warm touch of the hands? Will it, in turn, allow a more understanding training environment that will produce students who rival O'Sensei's abilities?

I find it an interesting possibility?

One less fear to deal with and let go of ....



Triangle, to me, is also part of a M.A. bow ... we see the good in all things.

By the way don't base your answers on what you have seen as intense before? Please consider the feeling of throws, the way you feel the training in your gut when you remember safety, and if that feeling would increase if you didn't have to think of them? (which also means NOT consciously thinking of harm also, just getting the most effiecient use of motion)

Not a real situation.
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Old 04-16-2002, 05:35 PM   #13
lt-rentaroo
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Hello again,

Bruce - thank you again for further clarity. However my answer remains, no. For me, it wouldn't matter; but for you, it might. Everyone learns and advances in a different way, I'm certain my learning curve would not change. Interesting concept though.

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 04-16-2002, 08:35 PM   #14
Arianah
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Sigh . . . Bruce, you just want people to agree with you. If you pose a question, expect to get some opinions that are not shared by you. And if you can't accept people disagreeing with you, please don't start a thread. This is getting so tedious.

Now, what I think about the actual question is that it would be nice to not have to worry about your uke when you are first learning a technique, but like someone else said, sensitivity to your uke, and being able to gauge your technique to suit your uke's ability is much harder than being able to just forget about him/her, and thus is a better training tool than just tossing someone around without thinking. This sensitivity is something that you will use much more readily outside of the dojo than a technique, and is even more important to a technique than the actual body movements, in my opinion. But it's just that: my opinion.

Bruce, after this, I will say nothing more about this: If you can't share opinions in a polite and respectful manner, and if you do not want to listen to any opinions other than your own (this does not mean agree with them, but listen to and respect them) then you should not be participating in a public forum. I think you have some good ideas, but when you present them in a condescending manner, I find that I begin to lose respect for and patience with you. I can see that you are trying to change the tone of your posts, and I commend you for that, but please take it that extra step, and discuss rather than preach. I thank you for your efforts.

Sarah
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Old 04-17-2002, 02:25 AM   #15
Bronson
 
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Quote:
Posing of the question is, for me, a totally letting go of restraint to allow the Aikido to carry to its FULL effect ... not the 10%-40% of effort that I use in practice /opposed to not modifying throws or practice to an ukes movement or their attempt to remain in contol/stay ahead of the technique?
So what if the 10%-40% is all that's needed to achieve the execution of the technique? One of the principles we try to follow in our dojo is the idea of "the correct usage of ki". Sometimes it needs to be "hard", sometimes it should be "soft", sometimes 100% is needed sometimes only 5%. Knowing when to apply what type and how much is where the art comes into it.


Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 04-17-2002, 02:33 AM   #16
Bronson
 
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Sigh . . . Bruce, you just want people to agree with you. If you pose a question, expect to get some opinions that are not shared by you. And if you can't accept people disagreeing with you, please don't start a thread. This is getting so tedious........... Bruce, after this, I will say nothing more about this: If you can't share opinions in a polite and respectful manner, and if you do not want to listen to any opinions other than your own (this does not mean agree with them, but listen to and respect them) then you should not be participating in a public forum. I think you have some good ideas, but when you present them in a condescending manner, I find that I begin to lose respect for and patience with you. I can see that you are trying to change the tone of your posts, and I commend you for that, but please take it that extra step, and discuss rather than preach. I thank you for your efforts.

Boy, I really wish I could add something to this to make it better. I can't, so I'll just stick my "yeah, what she said" on here and call it good.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 04-17-2002, 02:34 AM   #17
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Some of the best training I've had was with 60 year old men and others that I could not got as hard or as fast as I would with a 20 something athlete. That is when you work on technique and finesse - perfecting the movement.

You train to the abilities of your uke - reallizing their limitations and the lessons you can learn.

I really wonder if we removed my fear of causing injury would my Aikido improve. Somehow I doubt it.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 04-17-2002, 02:51 AM   #18
MaylandL
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Re: Practice with hurting others..

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
If you could practice Aikido at the greatest intensity you could muster, with absolute intent in every move while knowing you could never hurt your partner/partners no matter how intensely you trained .... would you master Aikido quicker?

....


Literally, your partner/partners would be impervious to harm/injury in this theoretical moot point of conjecture?
I'm not convinced that intensity of training necessarily equates to "mastering" aikido quicker. IMHO, its likely to be a function of how often you practice, how long you practice, consistency of training, the understanding of principles and translation into practice.

As for practicing with absolute intent, it depends what you mean by that. I am assuming (please correct me if I misunderstand) based on your clarifications that you complete the technique with all of the aikido principles in mind, then arent we currently training that in dojos? I and others in the dojos that I train at certainly aspire to follow and practice techniques in line with the principles and concepts of aikido. I would hazard a guess that aikidoka all over the world already do that as well.

If by "absolute intent" you mean without due regard to safety and being responsible for the safety of your training partners, then I wouldnt agree that you would be mastering aikido. IMHO, the issue of whether the Uke could or could not be hurt is irrelevant. The issue (which is correctly noted by Arianah) is about sensitivity to Uke. Its about understanding and being sensitive to the posture, ki, direction, stance, attitude etc of Uke.

I remain very sceptical that, even in an environment where you knew that Uke could never to be hurt, that training and perfecting your technique without due regard to Uke would progress your expertise and experience any quicker. I have always been lead to believe (by my senseis, from what I have read and been involved in) that training in aikido is a partnership and cooperative. I am not convinced that powering on a technique without sensing where Uke is, Where uke is to be directed, the position and posture of Uke, how well they will ukemi and their ability to ukemi is aikido and (dare I say) what Ueshiba had envisaged or is beneficial to improving technique.

I am proud of the fact that I take the responsibility to look after Uke and provide a training environment where they can provide commited and honest attacks in the knowledge that they would not get hurt. Its irrelevant whether they are impervious to injury.

Ultimately its about controlling uke's ki, direction and posture while allowing for safe and proper ukemi. I and others at the dojos that I train at place particular attention on learning control and controlling Uke to lead Uke to a point of unbalance where the options of further attack are nil and the only option is for Uke to Ukemi safely.

Even in a self defence situation (yes, unfortunately I've had to use aikido for that along with a truck load of luck) my "absolute intent" has never been to hurt someone, only to render the attack ineffective and close of all other attack options so that the only course left open is for them to withdraw/run away. I am proud to say that happened with little more that a minor bruise. My actions would not change even if I knew the person was impervious to injury.

Hope this informs and happy training.

Mayland
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Old 04-17-2002, 04:43 AM   #19
Bruce Baker
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Aikido with ...

My consideration was three fold for posing this question.

Considering the opposite side of threads such as "Aikido works, your Aikido doesn't", or "Training with Aikido mountains" where there was advice from numerouse sides about technique and hints or tricks use to overcome these problems.

Second) To see who was really reading the questions verses the headline? Just like in Class ... who is really paying attention and what did they hear?

Third) with so many people having positive thoughts on smaller people training with bigger people, I see negative advice to bigger people while smaller people have fifteen to twenty positive posts?

Is this the restriction of our imaginations, or the prooven adversion to the injury factor of the questions intent?

There is a factor of "the better shape you are in the less force is required."

I was looking to see if your training found this thesis I have found.

The more inner force, ki/chi, you use the less muscle is required.

Which in turn made me think, if we combined our absolute best effort of body and ki/chi soon you would only need a fraction of that effort which would eventually translate into everyone elses best effort while you are using a fraction of yours ... or .... reaching the level of O'Sensei?

Could this be among the reasons O'Sensei change many of the old ways into safe practice, his concern of "Aikido practice Hurting others?"

(Yes, I want you to notice the context of words and how the meaning changes. So too we should see the good in all things ... and yes to you of dark thoughts, we should be aware of the bad things too.)
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Old 04-17-2002, 05:27 AM   #20
Jorx
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Okay...
If I take the Bruce's question as it and as i think he wants it to be taken then I would say YES. If I throw away all the spiritual side and the fact that this question is completely absurd.
Why?
I mean... try imagining boxers preparing for regualr World Championships while in training they are not allowed to touch an opponent?

But rules is what makes a thing out of something else... in this case Aikido out of free fighting.

But some part of me really misses that I cannot test how hard do I have to push to cause an injury - of course I know how hard I can push WITHOUT an injury but it's not really the same and even not the opposite. I miss that I can't throw a full atemi at an inexperieced uke because I don't know if he will put a hand for protection or not (smashed nose).

The hitting sports put on some paddings and it's ok... but what do we do? There are no paddings for joints...

I think we wouldn't MASTER AIKIDO quicker as it has the spiritual side and harmony and blah blah. BUT I think if such possibility existed we would be so much more confident and calm when we need physically to applicate what we have learned in the Dojo.

Jorgen
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Old 04-17-2002, 05:57 AM   #21
guest1234
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I'd say with the beginner you may not be able to hit fast and hard, but you can still perfect location and control. There still needs to be a committed attack. Then hit with the force you want with a more senior partner.

I don't particularly care for atemi that is used as an attack, anyway, the kind where you are reaching out to hit your uke first. I like it to keep my space, so to speak: I use it to define where I don't want uke to go, or to distract uke (not by hitting them but by the threat) and while ukes have run their face into my hand (I will never understand this, but that is another story) they are the one's doing it and they rarely do it that hard, realizing the error of their ways I think in time to slow down. In 'real life in the street' I suppose if someone ran full tilt into my hand they'd fall down, but if not, the I'd still have the technique.

Anyway, I don't see that I can't use 'full power' during a technique, as the power I'm looking to use is uke's, not mine. The very rare overzealous beginner attack I can resist the temptation, and not let them crash full speed to the ground. Most everyone else, then I figure they they know how much mass and speed they are handing me to use.

Last edited by guest1234 : 04-17-2002 at 06:04 AM.
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Old 04-17-2002, 08:25 AM   #22
jk
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Oh hell, I guess some of us will just have to wait for Sony to come out with a ruggedized AIBO uke...

Meanwhile, can we get back to the real world?
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Old 04-18-2002, 04:58 AM   #23
Bruce Baker
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One person got the question

One person got the point of the question.


Peter Rehse of Osaka, Japan.

This person I would like to meet down the road.

For the rest of you ... Goodbye.
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Old 04-18-2002, 07:48 AM   #24
lt-rentaroo
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Hello,

Bruce - Mr. Rehse stated the same thing others have said in this post, only using fewer words. How is it that only he "got the point"?

I ask because clearly you're either not reading what others have written, or just don't care. So, I'm no longer going to answer your questions. Have a safe trip down the road.

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 04-18-2002, 08:36 AM   #25
Andy
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Quote:
Originally posted by lt-rentaroo
I ask because clearly you're either not reading what others have written, or just don't care.
You mean you didn't realize that reading comprehension isn't one of Bruce's strong points until now?

Bye, Bruce. Maybe you'll get better reception of your "revelations" at e-budo?
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