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Old 10-01-2009, 02:41 PM   #126
Keith Larman
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
So, the Cult of Personality will never happen in the U.S., then, right? Is that what you believe?? Because the classic cases have been in "dictatorships, totalitarian regimes, and even monarchies"? Let me suggest that those regimes would not have been created had there been people like some of the people here & on the TV & radio that warned of it coming. Follow? Let me suggest that a 'cult of personality' allowed those "dictatorships, totalitarian regimes" to come into being. Follow?? From those seeds, come "dictatorships, totalitarian regimes".
That is absolutely not what I said.

Hitler road a huge groundswell of fear and discontent into office and used that support to install many things that were classic Cult of Personality features.

But it was still the shift from bottom up to top down that moved it from popular and rather "enthusiastic" support to the appearance of a Cult of Personality. And that transition wasn't due to individuals or school teachers decided to teach songs about Hitler, it was a rewriting of history from the top down and imposed upon the country.

Reagan was hugely popular, especially among certain conservative groups. To the point of almost religious adoration. Cult-ish devotion even among some of those. But it was not a Cult of Personality nor did it turn into one.

By all means, be on your guard. Always vigilant. Always watching. But calling it a "cult of personality" to me is no different from those who called GW Bush a Nazi. Neither was even close. And the moment somebody starts that sort of shrill rhetoric the possibility of remotely intelligent, measured and insightful discussion is gone.

Just like in this thread it appears.

 
Old 10-02-2009, 01:12 PM   #127
dps
 
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

An example of a cult of personality that does not fit the definition exactly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality

Cult of personality

Examples from other forms of government

'Juan Perón, elected three times as President of Argentina, and his second wife, Eva Duarte de Perón, were immensely popular among many of the Argentine people, and to this day they are still considered icons by the Peronist Party. The Peróns' followers praised their efforts to eliminate poverty and to dignify labor, while their detractors considered them demagogues and dictators. To achieve their political goals, the Peronists had to unite around the head of state. As a result, a personality cult developed around both Perón and his wife."

David

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
 
Old 10-02-2009, 02:53 PM   #128
Keith Larman
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

There are many who would argue that the Peron years in Argentina were not in fact a good example of a cult of personality. Many followers were quite adamant and like today in the US there seems to be a number of people who are either irrationally in love with their leaders, or irrationally afraid of them. Most political scientists will hedge on this example and say it was kinda like one, but not really because it was lacking so many aspects you would expect to see.

But if you look hard enough you can find those who argue that a cult of personality was formed in the US around a mostly fictitious account of George Washington. So there you go. Ignore that most would consider that really to be something else entirely, but hey, who cares about being precise, let's just let the phrase mean most anything. The good thing about that is that it will ultimately end up meaning... Nothing. Destroyed by casual, uninformed colloquial usage.

So go ahead back to the wringing of hands and posting. It is truly horrible that some people really like the president, isn't it? Especially when the people who like him happen to people who have different views than you have. Yup, school teacher has the kids sing a song about their president during Black History Month in a program that also had songs about other presidents. Yup, clearly the next step is that Obama is going to rip off his mask and show that he's really Satan...

Now that all that's out of the way... Was there an issue to discuss? Anything? Anything at all?

The sad thing is that if you had just said there are some really crazy people out there who seem to elevate Barak Obama to god-like status I would have agreed with you. If you had said that some of those people made some really poor decisions in how they showed that devotion, heck, I'd be right behind you holding the sign. But when you take a gigantic leap and start using loaded phrases (what seems to be par for the course now in political discourse on-line and in the media), well, I start backing away saying "Um, well, yeah, but hold on a sec..."

It is like watching Glenn Beck. A small grain of truth gets selectively grown with a small bit of crazy and a lot of scary sounding words and suddenly we've proven that Unicorns are taking over the government! AAAIIIIEEEE, run! Save yourselves from their glistening horns of terror!

I should have done what I said way back when and walked away in disgust.

 
Old 10-02-2009, 03:04 PM   #129
Mark Freeman
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
suddenly we've proven that Unicorns are taking over the government!
Now that really would be worthy of a Cult of Personality! Where can I get a picture to hang on my wall?

Quote:
I should have done what I said way back when and walked away in disgust.
Perhaps

regards,

Mark
p.s. I've enjoyed your level headed approach Keith.

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
 
Old 10-02-2009, 06:32 PM   #130
sisley
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post


David
Whoops. Typo. Mea culpa.
I think you know who I mean....

--jimbo
 
Old 10-02-2009, 09:28 PM   #131
dps
 
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
Whoops. Typo. Mea culpa.
I think you know who I mean....

--jimbo
Since the only means of communication posting on a forum is the typed word ( and emoticons ), without visual cues and tonal inflection it is best to clear up any possible misunderstanding.

David

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
 
Old 10-02-2009, 10:16 PM   #132
sisley
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Since the only means of communication posting on a forum is the typed word ( and emoticons ), without visual cues and tonal inflection it is best to clear up any possible misunderstanding.

David
You would be right if this thread had any semblance of life left in it.

I simply replaced your name with that of my colleague who was on my mind at the time. These things happen. You have identified my mistake and I've apologized.

--jimbo
 
Old 10-05-2009, 12:32 PM   #133
David Orange
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
So, the Cult of Personality will never happen in the U.S., then, right? Is that what you believe??
No one who's ever heard of Ronald Reagan could make that claim.

Reagan and W. Bush both had huge cults of personality, in the context of your claims about Obama. He has nothing on them.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 10-05-2009, 02:19 PM   #134
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
No one who's ever heard of Ronald Reagan could make that claim.

Reagan and W. Bush both had huge cults of personality, in the context of your claims about Obama. He has nothing on them.
Well, no they didn't. Remember, Keith said that the Cult of Personality only exists in a tightly controlled (i.e., communistic) government, so the Cult of Personality is impossible in the U.S.

Didn't you read what Keith said? He said, "...Reagan was hugely popular, especially among certain conservative groups. To the point of almost religious adoration. Cult-ish devotion even among some of those. But it was not a Cult of Personality nor did it turn into one."
 
Old 10-05-2009, 02:48 PM   #135
David Orange
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
...it was not a Cult of Personality nor did it turn into one."
And Keith is correct. My statement is that what dupes are criticizing in Obama is stuff that both Reagan and Bush had from their followers. Certainly no worse. So get over it.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 10-05-2009, 03:14 PM   #136
Keith Larman
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Well, no they didn't. Remember, Keith said that the Cult of Personality only exists in a tightly controlled (i.e., communistic) government, so the Cult of Personality is impossible in the U.S.
Please do not put words in my mouth. It would be highly unlikely simply due to the structure of our government. However, given the dramatic change in the assertion of independent power by the executive branch in the last 10 years it isn't necessarily impossible.

That said, I think it is highly unlikely given the horribly polarized and divisive environment within which we live today. Heck, we can't even have an intelligent discussion about health policy without people screaming "socialists!".

Rights we still have such as the ability to have this discussion freely and openly are pretty much proof a cult of personality in a strict doesn't exist here. Saying the very things you've said in this thread in North Korea (as an example) would leave you open to prosecution... That's one thing that is somewhat surreal about a thread like this. Asserting something like that exists here and now would be horrendously dangerous if it were true.

 
Old 10-05-2009, 08:56 PM   #137
dps
 
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

There is a cult of personality because Queen Oprah anointed him as "The One".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO-Jd...eature=related

And some think he will do great things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR6IM...layer_embedded

David

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
 
Old 10-05-2009, 09:20 PM   #138
dps
 
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

There is hope.

http://mfile.akamai.com/5020/wma/rus...battlehymn.asx

David

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
 
Old 10-05-2009, 10:58 PM   #139
Keith Larman
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
There is a cult of personality because Queen Oprah anointed him as "The One".
Plonk.

 
Old 10-06-2009, 06:35 AM   #140
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
.... So get over it.
Get over what?
 
Old 10-06-2009, 09:38 AM   #141
David Orange
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

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John Hogan wrote: View Post
Get over what?
Whatever's bugging you silly about Obama.

You guys had total control of the country for six years until the people squashed you in 2006 and again in 2008.

Meantime, your boys screwed up two wars and destroyed our economy.

Now Obama has to straighten out the debacles of two wars and a ruined economy and folks like you and skaggs are determined to drag him down.

Don't forget it was your thinking that led us to the unbelievable mess George Bush left for the future. Rather than trying to blame and drag Obama down, you need to turn to some serious self-reflection and figure out how you made such egregious errors in judgment that you supported GW Bush. And while you're at it, see if you can figure out why you now want to destroy the person who is charged with correcting those tragic errors you endorsed.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 10-06-2009, 02:15 PM   #142
Hogan
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Whatever's bugging you silly about Obama.
Nothing is. What gave you an idea that there is something bothering me about Obama? I was having a discussion about the Cult of Personality with Keith & whether it can happen here.

Quote:
..You guys had total control of the country for six years until the people squashed you in 2006 and again in 2008.
You certainly are militaristic, aren't you?? "Total control". "Squashed". Man...

Quote:
Meantime, your boys screwed up two wars
Really??

Quote:
..and destroyed our economy.
I think people signing for mortgages who couldn't afford them & got fancy mortgage products are the ones that screwed us. Not my 'boys'.

Quote:
Now Obama has to straighten out the debacles of two wars and a ruined economy
What flavor is the cool aid you are drinking?

Quote:
..and folks like you
?? I am just like you...

Quote:
..and skaggs ..
You want to throw in 'rascist', too??

Quote:
...are determined to drag him down.
Unlike the Bush Haters, huh?

Quote:
Don't forget it was your thinking that led us to the unbelievable mess George Bush left for the future.
HAHAH!! Man, you should relax & take a drink from the warm glass of reality...

Quote:
Rather than trying to blame and drag Obama down, you need to turn to some serious self-reflection and figure out how you made such egregious errors in judgment that you supported GW Bush.....
Wow, thanks, doc. I'll get right on that.

If you need someone to talk to, I can refer you, or you can send me a PM. Bad day??
 
Old 10-06-2009, 02:47 PM   #143
akiy
 
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Watch your tone, folks.

-- Jun

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Old 10-06-2009, 09:00 PM   #144
David Orange
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
What gave you an idea that there is something bothering me about Obama?
If you were a manga character, they would draw you with blood shooting out your nose.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
You certainly are militaristic, aren't you??
Sure. After eight years of "all hat and no cattle" W., killing men, women and children for his own glory, I guess I do seem a bit militant.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
"Total control".
What George Bush and the neo-con Congress exercised over the country for six years. Remember that? Total control.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
"Squashed".
Right. What the American people did to the Republican party in 2006 and again in 2008 because of the total waste and ruin they brought this great country.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Man...
Exactly.

David Orange wrote:
"Meantime, your boys screwed up two wars"

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Really??
Yes. Really. You're quite flip about it, but we haven't begun to count the cost of what Bush/Cheney/Haliburton have done to our country with their mismanagement of two wars. We had won in Afghanistan eight years ago, but Bush turned his back on that and now look at it. The Taliban we decimated have regrown into a force to be reckoned with, all under George Bush's eyes. And as soon as we leave Iraq, it's going to be a haven for international jihad. All thanks to George.

But the debt we owe Afghanis now is not for what W. Bush did to them. We still owe them for what GHW Bush did, abandoning them to warlords after using them to destroy the Soviet empire. I couldn't believe they trusted us again in 2001, but now another Bush has seriously betrayed them and it's up to Obama to set that right and do truly right by those folks.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
I think people signing for mortgages who couldn't afford them & got fancy mortgage products are the ones that screwed us. Not my 'boys'.
Yes, it was your boys who screwed the economy by giving outlandish tax breaks to the super wealthy while prosecuting TWO wars. No one has ever given a tax break while we were fighting even ONE war, but Bush did it with TWO wars. That and the deregulation of the banking thieves (Bush's big pals) and the creation of CDOs are the two main factors in destroying our economy: YOUR boys. The "conservatives." No wonder most people just call them "cons".

David Orange wrote:
"Now Obama has to straighten out the debacles of two wars and a ruined economy
"

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
What flavor is the cool aid you are drinking?
A great retort, John, for someone who's never had an original idea or understanding that didn't come from a right wing talk show. Who else does it fall to, if no the President? Everyone reading can plainly see who's sucking up the Kool Aid.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
You want to throw in 'rascist', too??
Hey, with you here, there's no need. You cover that quite well all on your own.

David Orange wrote:
"and people like you and skaggs trying to drag (Obama) down...."

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Unlike the Bush Haters, huh?
Right. It's the same thing, isn't it?

Except that we were warning that Bush was driving the country into the ground and you said we were "bush haters' and "drinking Kool Aid" up until the very day when McCain and Sarah Palin had to admit that the economy was going over a cliff. We didn't hate Bush--just his evil humanity-hating manipulations of American power and prestige for his own glory. We warned you and you didn't listen until the economy was shattered at our feet, the result of Bush's tax policies and two fraudulently-managed wars.

David Orange wrote:
"Don't forget it was your thinking that led us to the unbelievable mess George Bush left for the future."

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
HAHAH!! Man, you should relax & take a drink from the warm glass of reality...
Reality is cold, John. If you're drinking something warm, I think I know what it is. And "reality" it's not.

David Orange wrote:
"Rather than trying to blame and drag Obama down, you need to turn to some serious self-reflection and figure out how you made such egregious errors in judgment that you supported GW Bush....."

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Wow, thanks, doc. I'll get right on that.
You'll just keep on losing until you do, pal.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
If you need someone to talk to, I can refer you, or you can send me a PM.
No thanks. If I want to see Glenn Beck or hear Rush Limbauh, I can find them. You need to give them a rest.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Bad day??
For you, maybe. My candidate is President, now, and YOUR candidate is supporting him. And your other candidate is the laughing stock of the country. And your candidate before that is finally where he should have been the past eight years--twiddling his thumbs and looking stupid.

My candidate is in control of the country and the fascists are out. So I'm having a pretty good day, thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 10-07-2009, 07:41 AM   #145
Hogan
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
...
My candidate is in control of the country ...
Is that 'total' control?? David - you really should get some help. Or at least hug a puppy. You hurt inside & lash out at the slightest things. I will pray for you.
 
Old 10-07-2009, 10:11 AM   #146
David Orange
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Is that 'total' control??
No, it just means "in control," as "now there is someone actually driving the car, unlike when Bush was asleep at the wheel."

Of course, Bush was only asleep for the important things--like leading up to 9/11. And the economy.

On everything else, he and your right-wing zealots had an SS-like control. Your voting bloc was so unbreakable they could and did do anything they wanted. They kept iron control of the things they were interested in and let everything else go down the tubes.

Now, finally, we have someone really capable of taking care of things.

Actually, the Democrats have the ability to exercise "total" control but you're lucky Obama is so bipartisan. If it were I, and the thoroughly discredited Republicans who have managed to hang on to their offices, handed me a sissified "No" to every option, I would use that solid majority to crush them. I would do them as they did everyone else for the past eight years (and as much as they could during Clinton's term). I would hammer them on every point of their well-earned weakness and the country that had elected me with such a powerful majority would cheer because the republicans deserve long and serious punishment for what they have done.

So you're very lucky Obama will even take Repug concerns into his consideration. He ought to crush you and your party and give you no voice at all except what you earn.

But even in the face of such even-handed treatment, you right-wing fanatics attack him. And it costs him politically because the vast majority of Americans wanted serious action against the repubs.

See, that's how a really great President handles the country and you guys can't understand how good a deal you're getting. You should get bread and water and a blanket on the floor.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
David - you really should get some help.
Don't worry about me, John. I haven't been taking guns to town hall meetings. Things are going very nicely for me, thanks.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
You hurt inside & lash out at the slightest things. I will pray for you.
Limbaugh won't hear your prayer unless you send him cash. Don't forget that.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 10-07-2009, 10:51 AM   #147
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality



For you David - hug 'em! HUG 'EM!
 
Old 10-12-2009, 07:08 AM   #148
dps
 
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Worldwide Cult of Personality

Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize. He was nominated two weeks into his presidency.

What did he do to further peace in the world when he was a senator?
Nothing.

What did he do as president to further peace in the world?
Nothing.

So why was he awarded a Nobel Peace Prize?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaBYLSujaZg

Everybody sing along;

Over and over
I tried to prove my love to you
Over and over
What more can I do
Over and over
My friends say I´m a fool
But over and over
I´ll be a fool for you

'Cause you got personality,
Walk, personality
Talk, Personality
Smile, Personality
Charm, personality
Love, personality
And of Cause you´ve got
A great big heart


So over and over
Oh, I´ll be a fool to you
Now over and over
What more can I do ?

Over and over
I said that I loved you
Over and over, honey
Now it´s the truth
Over and over

They still say I´m a fool
But Over and over
I´ll be a fool for you
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David

Last edited by dps : 10-12-2009 at 07:11 AM.

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
 
Old 10-12-2009, 11:54 AM   #149
David Orange
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize. He was nominated two weeks into his presidency.

What did he do to further peace in the world when he was a senator?
Nothing.

What did he do as president to further peace in the world?
Nothing.
Gee...it seems odd to me that someone who has done so much "nothing" has had such a world-shaking impact in such a few short years.

Let's contrast that with YOU doing "nothing" and see what impact you have had on the world....

crickets chirping....

You should read "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" and figure out that "you" are doing "nothing" while Obama, very obviously, is doing quite a lot.

You and John Hogan should just 1) grow up; and 2) get over it; and 3) do something, yourselves, instead of whining about Obama. He's not listening to you, anyway. He's too busy moving the world by "doing nothing."

But if we let your attitude grow to its ultimate extent, maybe you could start a new Aryan Nations, or something. That's certainly the direction you're headed.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 10-12-2009, 12:15 PM   #150
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

geez louise...do people LIKE making Jun shut down threads!!!

Cut it out. Hyperbole using racist terms just makes legitimate claims sour in the mouths of people who might otherwise support valid causes.

John and David, you both have my appologies, and I hope you understand that not everyone on the left or who happens to be black feels the things that were just expressed.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 

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