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Old 09-30-2009, 11:38 AM   #101
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

We will have to wait and see if just like the ACORN scandal, it is just a few "part time idiots" or reaches further.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...est=latestnews

David
 
Old 09-30-2009, 12:36 PM   #102
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
Without reason, perhaps the loudest voice (or most frequent poster) wins the argument.
And after posting six times out of the last seven posts,
Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
To the wing-nuts, you will never prove anything and they will take the wispiest, most demented ravings as absolute proof of ideas that would embarrass the really insane. Anyone with any sense just looks for the little "two cents" icon and knows it's a screwball argument.
David

Last edited by dps : 09-30-2009 at 12:46 PM.
 
Old 09-30-2009, 01:06 PM   #103
sisley
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
We will have to wait and see if just like the ACORN scandal, it is just a few "part time idiots" or reaches further.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...est=latestnews

David
David,

Thanks for going along with my little argument up to this point. I take it, by your post that I'm quoting above, that discussion about the song is over, and you'd prefer to talk about ACORN. So be it.

Thanks for the opportunity to use some of the skills that I have learned. I certainly learned from this experience, and I hope, like in ukemi, you could pick up something as well.

Have a great day!

--jimbo
 
Old 09-30-2009, 01:29 PM   #104
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Re: President Obama's policy and ideology

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Right...I should have added Palin to that list.

Anyway, those are both Republican "ideas".

David
What are? Letting old people die to save money & not waste medical resources on? That's actually the result of having nationalized health care, not an idea of the Republicans. Good try, though.
 
Old 09-30-2009, 01:34 PM   #105
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
David,

Thanks for going along with my little argument up to this point. I take it, by your post that I'm quoting above, that discussion about the song is over, and you'd prefer to talk about ACORN.
Nope, the thread was never about " the song. " The title of the thread is " Obama Cult of Personality ".

No, I do not want to talk about ACORN in this thread. My reference was about giving the subject of "Obama Cult of Personality" some time to see if anything developes that would be relevant to the discussion of "Obama Cult of Personality" like what happened in the ACORN thread.

David
 
Old 09-30-2009, 02:09 PM   #106
sisley
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Nope, the thread was never about " the song. " The title of the thread is " Obama Cult of Personality ".

No, I do not want to talk about ACORN in this thread. My reference was about giving the subject of "Obama Cult of Personality" some time to see if anything developes that would be relevant to the discussion of "Obama Cult of Personality" like what happened in the ACORN thread.

David
OK. I understand your contention to what I've written. Sorry about that.

Let me ask you then to clarify your concept of "Cult of Personality" while we wait for you to connect the incidents you've brought up to Mr. Obama, himself. Namely, what is the difference, in your mind, to being popular and charismatic, such as Mr. Kennedy was, and having a "cult of personality"?

For me, and let me just throw this out there for you to dispute if you wish, a "cult of personality" is directed by the leader himself to propagandize himself to his subjects. I suppose Kim Jong Il would be a fair representation of this. While being charismatic is common of major politicians, entertainers, and the like.

Would you agree?

--jimbo
 
Old 09-30-2009, 02:21 PM   #107
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
OK. I understand your contention to what I've written. Sorry about that.

Let me ask you then to clarify your concept of "Cult of Personality" while we wait for you to connect the incidents you've brought up to Mr. Obama, himself. Namely, what is the difference, in your mind, to being popular and charismatic, such as Mr. Kennedy was, and having a "cult of personality"?
No, I wish not to continue with you as long as you misrepresent what this thread is about or what I have posted.

I suggest to you that you start from the beginning and read the title of the thread and all the posts up to this point. Try very hard to understand what the thread is about.

David
 
Old 09-30-2009, 02:26 PM   #108
Keith Larman
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

David,

I must say I cannot take what you say even remotely seriously because you don't seem to have a clue what a "cult of personality" is. I tried earlier to point it out, Jim has pointed it out yet again. And what is truly difficult to understand is why you seem to be willingly adopting a totally incorrect position. Even if you take every event you've posted about completely seriously it doesn't even remotely resemble a "cult of personality" in political theory. I'm sorry, but you can't just assume some "personal" meaning to the phrase simply because you don't like the guy or the behavior of others. "Cult of Personality" has a *well-defined* meaning in political theory. Your ignorance and unwillingness to even consider this is stunning.

I am not a major fan of Obama. I like some things, don't like others. I can deal with people making naive statements. I can deal with people making statements reflecting their emotions. But you are simply wrong due to an apparent lack of understanding of what the phrase means.

I agree that some go way overboard in their adulation of the man. But that does a Cult of Personality make. It has a specific meaning, David, and isn't something you can make applicable by simply saying it over and over again (contrary to what some talking heads on both ends of the spectrum seem to think).

Good god, man, take 10 minutes, look it up and try to follow it.

Then show me a concerted, top down controlled concerted attempt by the system itself to install hero worship at virtually every level of the political and social landscape. That would indicate an attempt at a cult of personality.

It's a top down thing, not bottom up. And certainly not bottom up by a few isolated incidents of over-the-top adulation. Or even if there were hundreds of them. It is an institutional thing, an installed, concerted, organized effort by the governmental bodies themselves to install this sort of mindset as a pervasive and all-encompassing thing. Quite frankly you would be *way* better off asserting there is a Cult of Personality surrounding O-sensei than Obama...

 
Old 09-30-2009, 02:40 PM   #109
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
"Cult of Personality" has a *well-defined* meaning in political theory. Your ignorance and unwillingness to even consider this is stunning.

Good god, man, take 10 minutes, look it up and try to follow it.
Okay, where should I look it up?

David
 
Old 09-30-2009, 02:46 PM   #110
David Orange
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
We will have to wait and see if just like the ACORN scandal, it is just a few "part time idiots" or reaches further.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...est=latestnews
You want to know if it's "idiots" and you post a link to Fox News?

Hmm. Seems we know now where the real idiots are.

Anyway, the guy who interviewed the pimp and prostitute did go to law enforcement about their visit, so that shows at least that he was oriented to the right side. And the pimp and prostitute are now being sued for breaking MA law by filming people without their consent. But wing nuts believe any means is okay for the achievement of their desired ends.

On the other hand, what does that have to do with a cult of personality? Just more irrelevant distraction from the truth.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-30-2009, 02:51 PM   #111
David Orange
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Re: President Obama's policy and ideology

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
What are? Letting old people die to save money & not waste medical resources on? That's actually the result of having nationalized health care, not an idea of the Republicans. Good try, though.
Baloney. Good try, though.

There are no "death panels" in the nationalized health care plans. That is a republican fantasy.

There is no "letting old people die" in England, France, Canada, Japan, or anywhere else with a national health system. We have a lower mortality age than any of those countries because republicans back letting the insurance companies cut off people's insurance when they get really sick. It's the republicans and their love for corporations and their disgust with living people that has allowed insurance companies to deny treatments and terminate coverage for people who have never missed a payment in years.

Did I say good try? No. It was pretty lame, as I've come to expect.

Thanks for the illustration.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-30-2009, 02:52 PM   #112
David Orange
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
....My reference was about giving the subject of "Obama Cult of Personality" some time to see if anything developes that would be relevant to the discussion of "Obama Cult of Personality" like what happened in the ACORN thread....
Relevant?

You'll be very old before this nutter topic becomes relevant to anything but a white jacket and a padded room.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-30-2009, 02:55 PM   #113
David Orange
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
I suggest to you that you start from the beginning and read the title of the thread and all the posts up to this point. Try very hard to understand what the thread is about.
Much quicker: just cue the theme music from "The Twilight Zone" and your topic is put in complete perspective.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-30-2009, 03:44 PM   #114
Keith Larman
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Okay, where should I look it up?

David
I posted earlier in this very thread. I posted links to the wikipedia page on it. Yes, Wikipedia. It is short, simplistic, but decent in this case. I also posted a short discussion about it in context of the soviet system.

Try encyclopedias at your local library. Look up the soviet system again. Stalin is probably the best example, but Russia had a history of it pre-stalin basically culminating with Stalin. China under Mao. Romania under Nicolae Ceaucescu (sp?), Germany under Hitler, etc.

If you want more current examples read up on North Korea's political system. The current fruitcake and his father have installed a tremendous cult of personality as a means of controlling the population. As a matter of fact many (not all) totalitarian states and dictatorships have utilized a cult of personality as a means of keeping the population under control.

It is harder and harder to establish these things nowadays with information technology so robust and widespread. So it tends to be limited in this day and age to relatively poor and isolated countries. It is simply not possible to construct the elaborate BS stories when people can just look it up in a few seconds...

Another interesting point is that some believe that Karl Marx was the first to discuss the phenomena (and in a negative light, by the way).

I'll even attach a painting from North Korea. Notice how most art from these countries suffering under "cults of personality" is essentially propaganda but also shows the "great leader" in scenes that border on ludicrous. The "great leader" was basically despised by every other nation as his son is today. You're not likely to see a room full of world leaders giving Kim Jong Il a standing ovation... Let alone his similarly insane father.
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Old 09-30-2009, 04:00 PM   #115
sisley
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
No, I wish not to continue with you as long as you misrepresent what this thread is about or what I have posted.

I suggest to you that you start from the beginning and read the title of the thread and all the posts up to this point. Try very hard to understand what the thread is about.

David
I take offense at what you have written here, David. I have treated you with the utmost of respect and enjoyed the conversation until this point. For shame, man!

Please remember that a title of a thread does not make an argument. Your conclusion that Obama is somehow manufacturing a cult of personality lies solely upon the couple of examples that you have provided.

I have methodically gone through the first example of the kids singing in school in Philadelphia, and I have shown that this has no evidence of Obama's fingerprint at all. This, according to the definition that you supplied, clearly shows that it cannot be used to support a conclusion that Obama is cultivating a cult of personality.

If you want this thread to be a dumping ground for anything that you think appropriate to malign the character of our President, then clearly rational thinking and argumentation are not welcome. Devolve into name-calling and shouting and may the loudest and meanest man win.

As for me, I would ask you to remember your training as you post. There is still a relationship between posters in a thread like this that I think is important to explore. Elements of a good attack in the dojo can also be seen in a good reply here: don't be too wild, don't be drawn out of your center, don't miss the target, etc.

Train more!

Back to your shouting....

--jimbo
 
Old 09-30-2009, 04:19 PM   #116
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
<posted pic of Kim Jong >
..besides the big dose of crazy that comes thru in that pic; also is the possibility that Kim Jong was training the internals. His center is thick and the tanden region well developed. His posture: impeccable.

carry on.
 
Old 09-30-2009, 05:06 PM   #117
Keith Larman
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
His center is thick and the tanden region well developed.
Well, some books in North Korea now state that Kim Il Song gave birth to the world... So there you go... I guess he could have...

 
Old 09-30-2009, 10:42 PM   #118
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
I posted earlier in this very thread. I posted links to the wikipedia page on it. Yes, Wikipedia. It is short, simplistic, but decent in this case. I also posted a short discussion about it in context of the soviet system.

( snip)

I'll even attach a painting from North Korea. Notice how most art from these countries suffering under "cults of personality" is essentially propaganda but also shows the "great leader" in scenes that border on ludicrous. The "great leader" was basically despised by every other nation as his son is today. You're not likely to see a room full of world leaders giving Kim Jong Il a standing ovation... Let alone his similarly insane father.
I'm working on it.

In the mean time:
From the Gamaliel Foundation,

"Hear Our Cry Obama"
"Deliver Us Obama"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMJgw...layer_embedded

David
 
Old 10-01-2009, 09:19 AM   #119
Keith Larman
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Oh, good lord. Stop it, David. Clearly peoples' behavior bothers you. Fine. Got it. Get over it. It ain't a "cult of personality".

My last post. Because otherwise I give up on you, David.

You might as well post this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc and then say there is a cult of personality involved around Britney Spears. There's not. Just a random idiot. You might think he's behaving like a brainwashed idiot -- okay, I'm with ya there. You might call all those other events you've posted about as instances of brainwashed idiots. Okay, I get ya there too.

But it isn't a Cult of Personality.

One last time. A Cult of Personality is an intentional, institutional, pervasive, governmentally controlled/constructed thing. Continuing to post random videos of private people/groups who adore the current president is simply not a "cult of personality". Apples and oranges isn't sufficient -- try apples and asteroids. There were groups who felt George W. Bush spoke to God and his mission was heaven-sent. Delusional. But that isn't a Cult of Personality either.

You may think these people are silly, deluded or even dangerous. Fine. You may think these things are a "really bad sign". Fine. But until governmental programs start mandating photos of El Presidente in every living room along with mandatory songs in *every* school and textbooks saying Obama gave birth to George Washington and all that is good by squeezing his butt-cheeks together it just ain't the same thing. Notice the difference. Government programs and legal requirements. Institutionally supported and disseminated creation and /or hero myths (what about George W Bush in the flight suit -- is that trying to establish a cult of personality too?). You may think we're on a some gigantic slippery slope and you may quiver in your undies that that's what's coming, but without it all being a top down, pervasive, officially mandated phenomena it just isn't the same thing. So it isn't a Cult of Personality.

I'll check back into thread in a few years if we become the "United States of Obama" and apologize, but until then, this is just flat out absurd, paranoid, and most importantly... Simply ignorant of what Cult of Personality means in political theory. I come from an academic and research background. I love to discuss things. Oh, man, I thought much of my expensive liberal arts education was wasted after the soviet system fell apart. And now one of my favorite topics is back. Cult of Personality. But being tossed around in a way that is just insulting to all those who have suffered and died under repressive totalitarian regimes that actually *did* establish Cults of Personality. It's no different than every moron who takes whoever is president that day and calling him a Nazi. That in my mind is not only idiotic, but it ignores the real horror of what the Nazi's actually did in favor of trying to draw some facile, borderline insane comparison. There's lots of crazy involved here.

But this isn't even discussion anymore -- you have to at least try to adopt consistent meaning in your terms. Cult of Personality *has* a meaning. A real one. And since it has very powerful connotations of extremely negative things it is easy to use it as a powerful label. So it becomes even more important that the phrase is used correctly and appropriately and not just as a means to blindly label someone as something they aren't.

By using a loaded label like this totally out of appropriate context you are doing exactly the same thing as the very people you are so upset about, just on the other side of the spectrum.

 
Old 10-01-2009, 09:42 AM   #120
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Nice try Keith, well put, not sure it is going to work though!

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
 
Old 10-01-2009, 11:01 AM   #121
sisley
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

I agree: well put Keith. But this thread has simply become a sort of repository for Mark's bookmarks that show Obama in a negative light. He appears to be more interested in accusations and smearing than any sort of discussion; all headline, no story.

--jimbo
 
Old 10-01-2009, 01:31 PM   #122
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
...One last time. A Cult of Personality is an intentional, institutional, pervasive, governmentally controlled/constructed thing. ...
Why do you think it has to be intentional & controlled by the government? You don't think it can grow without government control? Only a tightly controlled society, for example, a COMMUNIST country, can have a policy that is "intentional, institutional, pervasive, governmentally controlled/constructed thing" for it to work. Does this mean you can think of no examples of a cult of personality other than a government controlled one?? Really??

And by the way, this charge of a cult of personality of Obama did not come from David or just the republicans. Heck even the Clinton's said it:

http://www.groupnewsblog.net/2008/02...rsonality.html
"...Some folks have suggested Clinton operatives are pushing "Obama as cult" around the press."
 
Old 10-01-2009, 01:33 PM   #123
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Jim Sisley wrote: View Post
I agree: well put Keith. But this thread has simply become a sort of repository for Mark's bookmarks that show Obama in a negative light. , no story.


David
 
Old 10-01-2009, 03:08 PM   #124
Keith Larman
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Why do you think it has to be intentional & controlled by the government? You don't think it can grow without government control? Only a tightly controlled society, for example, a COMMUNIST country, can have a policy that is "intentional, institutional, pervasive, governmentally controlled/constructed thing" for it to work. Does this mean you can think of no examples of a cult of personality other than a government controlled one?? Really??
That is the point -- Cult of Personality is a well defined thing in political theory and it gets misused all the time including by pundits and journalists. And when people use the phrase to denigrate a leader they are usually using a sort of "by association" logic to hope that people see it as the same thing. Which it usually isn't because the classic cases of Cult of Personality are all based on dictatorships, totalitarian regimes, and even monarchies where they have the level of control in order to install policies to forward the "official line".

Quote:
And by the way, this charge of a cult of personality of Obama did not come from David or just the republicans. Heck even the Clinton's said it:

http://www.groupnewsblog.net/2008/02...rsonality.html
"...Some folks have suggested Clinton operatives are pushing "Obama as cult" around the press."
People liking Obama with cult-like enthusiasm is a worthy discussion in and of itself, but it is quite different from a political cult of personality. They are *not* the same. Saying someone has a "cult-like" following is dramatically different from asserting a "Cult of Personality". And it isn't a small step from one to the other. It is tremendous leap.

The same following issue happens with most people who get into high office, celebrities, religious leaders, rock-stars, athletes, etc. -- there are always those who view them almost as saviors. and people who have that sort of cult-like adoration are quite nuts IMHO as well. They see only what they want to see and are totally blinded by their ideological assumptions. These people can also be those within a persons' inner circle (they tend to be believers in the person and their message otherwise they wouldn't be there...). And whether someone deserves that degree of adulation is itself a topic of value, having people with that devotion is not a cult of personality. If you want to say some people love Obama in a cult-like way I'd agree with you completely. Of course some do. There was and still is a very large group of people who idolize Ronald Reagan. Or John Kennedy. The evaluation of the justification for their adoration is an interesting topic of discussion.

The question is whether the people at the top have so thoroughly taken over a system that they are able to enforce and impose a hero like or savior style story about the "great leader". It is much like an attempt at large-scale brainwashing done from the highest levels down. It is not enthusiastic believers who take up the flag of their hero. It is the "hero" trying to convince the country to believe some BS creation myth and doing so through the government itself. This literally becomes the law of the land, with mandatory displays of the "great leader" on every corner. Heck, Saddam did a moderately good job of trying to install the same thing himself. And did so through his own power and the power of his political party.

Uncle.

I give up.

Sorry, I must be the ivory tower idiot here. Back to my dark cave...

 
Old 10-01-2009, 03:30 PM   #125
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
That is the point -- Cult of Personality is a well defined thing in political theory and it gets misused all the time including by pundits and journalists. And when people use the phrase to denigrate a leader they are usually using a sort of "by association" logic to hope that people see it as the same thing. Which it usually isn't because the classic cases of Cult of Personality are all based on dictatorships, totalitarian regimes, and even monarchies where they have the level of control in order to install policies to forward the "official line". ...
So, the Cult of Personality will never happen in the U.S., then, right? Is that what you believe?? Because the classic cases have been in "dictatorships, totalitarian regimes, and even monarchies"? Let me suggest that those regimes would not have been created had there been people like some of the people here & on the TV & radio that warned of it coming. Follow? Let me suggest that a 'cult of personality' allowed those "dictatorships, totalitarian regimes" to come into being. Follow?? From those seeds, come "dictatorships, totalitarian regimes".
 

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