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Old 09-25-2009, 09:04 AM   #26
Mike Sigman
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Once again Mike, This comparison is closer to the Bush administration than it is to the Obama administration.
I'm not sure a good defense in a debate is to say, "But so-and-so was worse". That's sometimes known as the "But Mom... Billy did it too" argument.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 09-25-2009, 09:35 AM   #27
C. David Henderson
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Deleted first post; too many lines already crossed.

Marc, I do tend to agree with what you're saying.

Best,

cdh

Last edited by C. David Henderson : 09-25-2009 at 09:38 AM.
 
Old 09-25-2009, 10:35 AM   #28
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

I'm guessing the Obama staff didn't write that song...I'm hoping not anyway. I get the point in the comparison to people like Stalin. Of course that's not to say Obama is not a sociopath like Stalin, but it does lend a certain bitter flavor to the characterization of Obama too. I don't think he has any more of a cult of personality than say, Jim Morrison. Both are very aware of their public image (The Lizard King is still alive and kickin' it in Encinada ) and both set controls to affect how people see them. People do this every day of their lives, but some are more aware of it than others. People who depend on popularity to make a living are acutely aware of how people see them and they'll go to extraordinary lengths to protect their image/livelyhood.
That said, I think Obama has the unfortunate task of being the first African American president. His stature was loaded before he even got to it and I think you have to account for the momentum that will have all on its own. Add the almost equally potent fact that to so many Americans, the last administration (the other of the two apparently diametrically opposed teams, I might add) represents the highest levels of government subversion (subversion against the people) and I'm a little surprized there isn't an even greater swoon over him.
Personally I can't stand either side of the aisle. They're more interested in competing with each other than they are in most of us...and never mind the fact that positions of power tend to attract people who simply enjoy wielding power. I think anyone who runs for office instantly appears suspicious.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 09-25-2009, 10:54 AM   #29
Marc Abrams
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm not sure a good defense in a debate is to say, "But so-and-so was worse". That's sometimes known as the "But Mom... Billy did it too" argument.

Best.

Mike
And my next sentence was.... Here let me help you "Once again Mike, this comparison is simply nonsense for many reasons."

So you see it did not engage in the "Billy did it too argument." I was merely using that line of reasoning to demonstrate a parallel line to what was being done. Both lines of reasoning were nonsense .

Regards,

Marc Abrams
 
Old 09-25-2009, 11:25 AM   #30
Basia Halliop
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
I made no reference to Hitler, Basia Halliop did. I was correcting him.
No I didn't. And I'm a her (although I don't see why you'd know that, so never mind).

For what it's worth, I don't think the Obama thing seems much like Stalin or whoever (carefully orchestrated propaganda campaign presaging and end to democracy and a crack-down on any kind of dissent), it seems much more like a more random public figure or celebrity, fueled by a combination of 'first black president, bunch of people kind of high on the joy of that', and 'about half of americans REALLY REALLY REALLY hated Bush and his bunch and are kind of high on the joy of having him replaced' and some 'Americans really tend to glorify and celebritise their presidents (and flag and etc) in general'.

Although, I think part of the thing with comparisons is that you can compare two things that aren't the same -- in fact it's usually a much more interesting comparison if there are certain things similar and certain things different.
 
Old 09-25-2009, 12:10 PM   #31
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
No I didn't. And I'm a her (although I don't see why you'd know that, so never mind).
My apologies Basia on both counts. It was Rabih Shanshiry that mentioned Hitler along with Stalin and Mao.

David

Last edited by dps : 09-25-2009 at 12:14 PM.
 
Old 09-25-2009, 12:12 PM   #32
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
(carefully orchestrated propaganda campaign presaging and end to democracy and a crack-down on any kind of dissent),
And that is not what I said.

David
 
Old 09-25-2009, 12:30 PM   #33
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
David:I would be surprised if you did not realize that both Mao and Stalin developed a "cult of personality" as part of their plans in ruling in an authoritarian manner. The "cult of personality" of Mao and Stalin was part of the policy and ideology. Would you like to proffer any proof that the Obama administration is intentionally doing the same thing? In absence of that, it is profoundly disingenuous to try and compare Mao & Stalin regimes with the Obama administration.
Yes the cult of personality of Mao and Stalin was a part of their policy and ideology and that Obama's cult of personality is a part of his policy and ideology. I did not say that their policy and ideaology was the same as his policy and ideaology.

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
In absence of that, it is profoundly disingenuous to try and compare Mao & Stalin regimes with the Obama administration.
I wasn't comparing thier regimes with his administration.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
This is reminiscent of the "cults of personality" that Stalin and Chairman Mao established in their countries.
It is disingenuous to redefine what I said.

David
 
Old 09-25-2009, 12:43 PM   #34
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
John:

At the present time, I am neither appalled or afraid. If this were to become part of a school districts stated plans or the US department of education's stated plans, then I will be genuinely upset.
...
Why upset only if it were part of stated plans of the district or government? Unofficial brainwashing is OK, but not official?? I don't follow your line of thinking AT ALL.

Using your logic, it would be OK if a district taught creationism as you complained but not if it was a government policy, as you claim it was under Bush.
 
Old 09-25-2009, 01:50 PM   #35
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Isaac Bettis wrote: View Post
Just because it is a rocking song, it is relevant, and Vernon Reed is just a badass:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ5SVDYBNrY

I'll tell you one and one makes three.

I have been suggesting the personality cult around Obama is scary, and I am liberal (well a classical liberal).

This is a good video which has some relevance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdtqtfXdR-c&feature=fvst
A primary rule of any marketing campaign is to keep your product in front of the consumers as much as possible and branding is one way of doing this.
Self promotion and continuous advertisement is another.
In his U.N. speech he referred to himself once every 13 seconds.
He is seen on tv more than any other president has. He is the subject of more news stories ( tv, radio, print,) than any other president and possibly any other person.

Consumers won't buy the product if they don't know about it and to ensure product longevity you target potential consumers to start buying your product as young as possible to get them hooked ( addicted ?) to your product. The tobacco companies certainly knew this.

And ridicule of competitors is not ruled out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDEAY...embedded#t=149

David

Last edited by dps : 09-25-2009 at 01:54 PM.
 
Old 09-25-2009, 02:46 PM   #36
Marc Abrams
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Yes the cult of personality of Mao and Stalin was a part of their policy and ideology and that Obama's cult of personality is a part of his policy and ideology. I did not say that their policy and ideaology was the same as his policy and ideaology.

I wasn't comparing thier regimes with his administration.

It is disingenuous to redefine what I said.

David
David:

You have yet to prove that the "cult of personality" is part of President Obama's policy and ideology. Feel free to provide some real proof, as opposed to what you have put forth so far. By the way, if you were not comparing those regimes to the Obama administration, then why did you cite them?

Marc Abrams
 
Old 09-25-2009, 02:53 PM   #37
Marc Abrams
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
Why upset only if it were part of stated plans of the district or government? Unofficial brainwashing is OK, but not official?? I don't follow your line of thinking AT ALL.

Using your logic, it would be OK if a district taught creationism as you complained but not if it was a government policy, as you claim it was under Bush.
John:

?

Let me assist you if I may. If a school district implements some teaching curriculum, it is done so as official policy of a school district. Approving curriculum is part of what a school district is responsible for. Teachers who go far afield from the curriculum are typically called to task by an administrator for doing so. By the way, are you disputing that the Bush administration did not support the teaching of creationism in schools?

Now it's brainwashing? You seem to be using this term quite loosely. By "unofficial brainwashing" , do you have some interesting conspiracy theory that you would like to get off you chest?

Have you and David considered starting an Obama Fan Club?

Marc Abrams
 
Old 09-25-2009, 03:27 PM   #38
Basia Halliop
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

I said:
Quote:
(carefully orchestrated propaganda campaign presaging and end to democracy and a crack-down on any kind of dissent),
Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
And that is not what I said.

David
No, it's what _I_ said, about Stalin. I believe you said that aspects of the cult of personality that you see around Obama (e.g. children singing songs about him in school) reminded you of aspects of the cult of personality around Mao and Stalin (I'm paraphrasing, but that is what I understood). I just said it only reminded me of them in some ways (which I agreed it did, in my first post), but not in others. I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything, just continuing the conversation by expanding on the comparison and pointing out what I saw as crucial differences.

As I had said, I don't think the fact that two things have massive and fundamental differences makes it pointless to draw any comparisons at all.

Last edited by Basia Halliop : 09-25-2009 at 03:40 PM.
 
Old 09-25-2009, 03:43 PM   #39
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
...that's not to say Obama is not a sociopath like Stalin,
Meant to say "that's not to say Obama is a sociopath like Stalin."

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 09-25-2009, 04:56 PM   #40
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
David:You have yet to prove that the "cult of personality" is part of President Obama's policy and ideology. Feel free to provide some real proof, as opposed to what you have put forth so far.
You know a person not by what they say but what they do, especially politicians. In this case it is not just Obama but what his administration, political allies, supporters and friends ( all those who have and will benefit politically and monetarily) have done and are doing.
It would be amazing if Obama and company would come out and say they are building a cult of personality around Obama and naive to think that they would.

What to you is real proof?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
By the way, if you were not comparing those regimes to the Obama administration, then why did you cite them?
I have read more about Stalin and Mao and they are the first examples that came to mind.

From Wikipedia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality

During the peak of their regimes, these leaders were presented as god-like and infallible. Their portraits were hung in homes and public buildings, with artists and poets legally required to produce only works that glorified the leader.... ."

David

Last edited by dps : 09-25-2009 at 05:07 PM.
 
Old 09-25-2009, 05:00 PM   #41
Trish Greene
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

My problem with this is the way that Obama is treated like a deity in these songs. I really do find it offensive. I have no problem with people wanting to praise and support the President, but the president is just a man and prone to so many mistakes and errors. You put someone up on a pedestal like that and when he falls ( because by nature he will ), it will be devastating to these kids that won't understand it.

"Aikido is nothing but an expression of the spirit of Love for all living things."

Morihei Ueshiba
www.aikido-kajukenbo.com
 
Old 09-25-2009, 05:22 PM   #42
dps
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President Obama's policy and ideology

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
David:
You have yet to prove that the "cult of personality" is part of President Obama's policy and ideology. Feel free to provide some real proof, as opposed to what you have put forth so far. By the way, if you were not comparing those regimes to the Obama administration, then why did you cite them?

Marc Abrams
Marc would like proof that the " cult of personality" is part of President Obama's policy and ideology.

David
 
Old 09-25-2009, 05:25 PM   #43
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
David:

You have yet to prove that the "cult of personality" is part of President Obama's policy and ideology. Feel free to provide some real proof, as opposed to what you have put forth so far. By the way, if you were not comparing those regimes to the Obama administration, then why did you cite them?

Marc Abrams
Since Obama's policy and ideology is not the topic of this thread I have started another thread for that topic.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16882

David
 
Old 09-25-2009, 08:28 PM   #44
Hogan
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
John:

?

Let me assist you if I may. If a school district implements some teaching curriculum, it is done so as official policy of a school district. Approving curriculum is part of what a school district is responsible for. Teachers who go far afield from the curriculum are typically called to task by an administrator for doing so. By the way, are you disputing that the Bush administration did not support the teaching of creationism in schools?

Now it's brainwashing? You seem to be using this term quite loosely. By "unofficial brainwashing" , do you have some interesting conspiracy theory that you would like to get off you chest?

Have you and David considered starting an Obama Fan Club?

Marc Abrams
I will attempt to clarify for you:

This is what you said:
Quote:
At the present time, I am neither appalled or afraid. If this were to become part of a school districts stated plans or the US department of education's stated plans, then I will be genuinely upset....
This means to me that if this singing of Obama praises (which I call BRAINWASHING be it from the school principal or whomever) were part of the district plans or the US dept of ed's stated plans, you WOULD be concerned. But since it wasn't, since it was 'unofficial' (my term - meaning not part of an official policy), you are not concerned. As another example, you said that:

Quote:
...What I am upset with are the school districts in this country, that were supported both overtly and covertly by the last administration, in instituting "Creationism" into the schools as some kind of competing scientific theory to evolutionism. Spending money on soundly dis-proven religious beliefs being taught to our typically poorly educated youth is beyond the pale of reason.
This means to me that this policy (again, I will use BRAINWASHING) of the Bush admin you were against, because it was official policy of the US dept of ed & was instituted countrywide.

Clear so far?

So, naturally, that means that 'unofficial' brainwashing is OK (meaning you are not concerned) since it is not official policy, but 'official' brainwashing is not OK (meaning you are concerned). Again, 'unofficial' brainwashing is policy by school not sanctioned by feds, & 'official' brainwashing is policy trying to be implemented by US guv.

Clear still?

Now, that logic means that, if an 'unofficial' policy of a district is to teach creationism, that would be OK if it was NOT sanctioned by the US fed guv. Remember, you were not concerned about 'unofficial' but are concerned about 'official'.

Follow that logic? This is why I said:
Quote:
Why upset only if it were part of stated plans of the district or government? Unofficial brainwashing is OK, but not official?? I don't follow your line of thinking AT ALL.

Using your logic, it would be OK if a district taught creationism as you complained but not if it was a government policy, as you claim it was under Bush.
You didn't get that, so you provided a primer on how school policy is made. Um, thanks....
Quote:
..If a school district implements some teaching curriculum, it is done so as official policy of a school district. Approving curriculum is part of what a school district is responsible for. Teachers who go far afield from the curriculum are typically called to task by an administrator for doing so.
This means it is 'official.' policy, no? So, my question to you is, if this singing of Obama's praises [BRAINWASHING] WAS official policy, would you be concerned? Before you answer that, note that the principal of the school said today that she saw nothing wrong with it & would do it again if she could. Note also that it has been reported that she has posted all over her office & school Obama pics & quotes.

Now, I noted in your post you wished to assist me in your answer. You haven't, since you didn't answer my question. But since you indicated you were confused by what I wrote, I hope this post clears it up for you. Let me know if you need further assistance.

OH, BY THE WAY, one of the two songs the kids were taught quotes directly from the spiritual "Jesus Loves the Little Children". Jesus' name was replaced with Obama's. I wonder if that song was leftover from their teaching of creationism when Bush was Prez?

Last edited by Hogan : 09-25-2009 at 08:32 PM.
 
Old 09-25-2009, 08:53 PM   #45
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
. . Teachers who go far afield from the curriculum are typically called to task by an administrator for doing so.
Unless the administrator and fellow teachers give tacit approval of it. I know of one such example locally where the grade school teacher wore Obama campaign buttons, had Obama posters and pictures in her class room. She openly talked about how Obama was good and McCain was bad.

By the time these grade school children are old enough to vote they will not be able to vote for Obama so why the campaigning in the grade school classrooms and schools?

David
 
Old 09-25-2009, 09:03 PM   #46
Mike Sigman
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

I did a quick Google to see if I could find more about the circumstances in the school and this article was the most explicative one I could find:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...ama-supporter/

I then searched to see if I could find an in-depth article from a liberal news source. There's not a one that I can find. There was almost no coverage on Obama's background, nothing on John Edwards' mistress and baby, nothing on Van Jones, nothing on ACORN until the story couldn't be smothered, etc., on the liberal news networks. The corrupt media is not the one that reports the news, it's the media that doesn't report the news that they don't want the public to hear. Very "progressive", filtering the 'bad' news.

Notice that the principal put up Obama literature and pictures throughout the school. That's certainly cult-like adoration. Pretending it's not is simply playing to fellow believers.

I think what gets me is that I (and most people) wouldn't tolerate this sort of behavior from a president of either party... and anyone who tolerates and dismisses this stuff, the NEA stuff, ACORN illegalities of decades, etc., while calling names to deflect the argument has got some sort of self-perception issue. Let's just face it -- there are more irregularities going on than there should be.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
 
Old 09-26-2009, 08:26 PM   #47
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Re: President Obama's policy and ideology

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/...-speeches-ego/
 
Old 09-26-2009, 10:44 PM   #48
dps
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Re: President Obama's policy and ideology

On January 18, 2009, Obama set up an organization to help pass his policy agenda.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGNgacysHg)

It is a community organizing project of the Democratic National Committee ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizing_for_America ) called "Organizing for America" and is the made up of of his campaign workers who help him get elected.

The Mission of Organize for America,
From Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizing_for_America

"Mission

The mission as stated is to help the President pursue his agenda. Thus, many[who?] view the organization as primarily a political organization and not a social movement.

However, given the unparalleled roots the organization has in human resources- literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of volunteer activists- many experts[who?] maintain that it can't be viewed as a mere political organization, rather somewhat of an omnibus organization - a huge mass of citizens fighting for further power of a political individual, in the hopes that this individual, with expanded power, can bring the change they want."

and

From The Los Angeles Times, http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan...bama-network18

"But sources familiar with the planning say the new group will employ a full-time staff of hundreds of professional organizers, possibly numbering an average of between one and two workers per congressional district in certain politically important states. One source said that Obama aides have discussed an annual budget of $75 million -- an unprecedented standing political army that will await orders from a president."

Bold type is mine.

David

Last edited by dps : 09-26-2009 at 10:55 PM.
 
Old 09-26-2009, 10:58 PM   #49
Mike Sigman
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Re: President Obama's policy and ideology

More and more basically liberal sources have been forced to comment on the pretty obvious narcissism of Obama. His view of himself is almost staggering sometimes. Most of us would be a little nonplussed if, say, a newly-elected leader of France, UK or Germany was childish enough to spend speech time dwelling on how bad his percieved predecessor had been and how he was much better. Unfortunately for Obama, the childish "bash my predecessor" speeches are the norm and are getting uncomfortable for all but the enthralled. Most of America is now sort of watching this stuff in disbelief. The whole strategy seems to be based around the idea that Obama can schmooze the rest of the world in the same way he schmoozed the media, the Left, and some of the independents who bought into long enough for O to win the election.

Look at the Obama idea that he can bring about nuclear disarmament by scmoozing the rest of the world and shrugging off the "trust but verify" approach. It's going to be fun to watch... and to wait for the other very big shoe to drop.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/pos...out_obama.html

Quote:
I can recall no other major American speech in which the narcissism of a leader has been quite so pronounced. It might be compared to Gen. Douglas MacArthur's "I shall return" -- which made it sound like MacArthur intended to reconquer the Philippines single-handedly. But MacArthur, at least, imagined himself as embodying his country, not transcending it. He did not assert that while the Japanese invasion was certainly excessive, America had been guilty of provocations of its own -- and now, in the MacArthur era, things would be finally different.


Read the whole WaPo commentary.

Mike
 
Old 09-27-2009, 12:56 AM   #50
dps
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Re: Obama Cult of Personality

Another example of recruiting kids for Obama's cult of personality.

Obama urging kids to campaign for him. Here is the web site and some quotations from it.http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/kidshome

"Welcome to Kids for Obama

In the words of Senator Barack Obama, the "Obama for America Campaign is a different type of campaign". For the first time in campaign history, children ages 12 and under, have a place to go and actually vote—through their voice. What a great way to be introduced to politics and to express your support for Senator Obama."

"Take an adult (voting age) to the polls on Election Day and encourage them to vote for you, by voting for Senator Obama. "

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/kidskit

Check out the Kids for Obama
Starter Kit!

"Do you feel like you want to get involved in the political process but you don't know how? Do you feel like there's something important coming up in the Presidential elections? Get involved in KIDS FOR OBAMA! Studies have shown that kids can affect their parents and their siblings' opinions and even change the opinions of older family members . . . including those of voting age. Are you still with me? Great, Let's get started!"

Lets not forget the "Kids for Obama Blog " , http://my.barackobama.com/page/commu...oup/KidsHQBlog

David

Last edited by dps : 09-27-2009 at 01:02 AM.
 

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