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Old 10-03-2009, 08:41 AM   #101
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I don't think me having IP or not is the issue. I don't proclaim any great power over others, or knowledge others don't have, or knowledge that will improve other martial art. Honestly, I don't know if what Dan has, would make any difference to me or not, as I think he is just taking a different angle, method of teaching, different approach to the same universal IP principles that has been understood by thousands of martial arts over hundreds of years.

We can all agree that IP, stems generally from the Chinese arts. That is what ever anyone discovers as IP, if it is legitimately effective (not taught by the B.S. artists), can marked in the Chinese arts. That is these principles can be applied differently and have different application. Our thing as Aikidoka is to apply IP in the way and manner as O'Sensei did to get the same results as he did, hence the term Aikido.

What I find interesting is Dan says he has IP either not taught or missing in Aikido. I personally think what might apply over the other is the latter. I don't think any thing is missing in Aikido when it comes to IP. What might be possible is not all of Aikido's IP are not taught, or not everyone is exposed, discovered, or taught IP, and hence is some Aikido it is lost. The other thing to is because of Aikido's spiritual side certain Aikido IP are not practiced in such a way to fully maximize IP, and as a result are curb or not observed. All this varies from Aikido style to Aikido style. But I feel O'Sensei's Aikido and his practice was complete and he made an effort to design IP to function within his philosophy.

Do I have IP, yes, everyone does. But, can I apply it the way and in the manner O'Sensei did...no, and that is the challenge, isn't. And being Japanese, I do think O'Sensei as in tradition set the challenge he met to be like climbing Mount Everest on your own. And all most impossible challenge that if achieved set you among the immortals, or at least up their in the company of the greats who did the seemingly impossible. Are you up for that challenge?

If that challenge is too tough for some, if that challenge doesn't seem to be what you / a person wants, then fine. Not criticisms from me. But, I think it is unfair to say essentially my thing is better than yours, and other harsh criticisms I read. But what can you do?
Hi Buck,

What're you trying to say?
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Old 10-03-2009, 09:36 AM   #102
Russ Q
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Re: What is "IT"?

Hello Mr. Watson,

You're a lucky man to have access to Angier Sensei.

Cheers,

Russ
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Old 10-03-2009, 09:48 AM   #103
Buck
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Hi Buck,

What're you trying to say?
Just that you're providing me an opportunity to express my opinons and view points and stuff. And I Thank you for that. I look forward to future exchanges with you.

Last edited by Buck : 10-03-2009 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 10-03-2009, 09:53 AM   #104
stan baker
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Re: What is "IT"?

Hi Phillip,
what are your opinions based on specifically

stan
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Old 10-03-2009, 10:12 AM   #105
mjhacker
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
If you had true internal power, you wouldn't be reacting to Dan Harden's posts.
If you have True Internal Power, you won't react to this post.

Michael Hacker
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http://renshindojo.com/

自由心流合気武道 - 鍛心館
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Old 10-03-2009, 10:33 AM   #106
Buck
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Phillip,
what are your opinions based on specifically

stan
Tools like common sense. Fundamental scientific observational methods, and procedures as best as I can. And stuff like that. I don't base it on fantasy, myth, etc. It is impossible for me to have contact with O'Sensei as he died before I started Aikido. So I have to go on the material he left behind and those who did have contact with him.

I do go out there and get in contact with many other individuals, who are qualified in their arts. I ran into a very impressive Chinese martial artist who was practicing in the park, for example. He's from Taiwan, in his 60's and a doctor of (western) internal medicine. Very down to earth, not mystical or mysterious at all in what teaches or the way he teaches it. I do enjoy my discussions with him even though I don't take formal lessons. He demystified so much and really knows what he is talking about.

I go to other Aikido dojos, and roam around looking for other good martial artists to have exchanges with like for example a kendo / iaido schools, Kungfu, and alike. I have had my share of disappoints as well as not every place you go is going to be gold. The fact is the gold is rare and you might go to 20 places and find only one qualified person at the level I seek. I learn from the decent people as well, who are not frauds or just not that good.

Yea... I have been around the block and been at it long enough to know what is the right formula. To know what I am looking at or know what I am hearing makes or doesn't make sense. I have been impressed but more than that disappointed on what people claim to be or do. I have developed a healthy skepticism, so I do not believe every thing I see, hear, or feel to be the next best thing to sliced bread. So I do believing in testing, and I have a quality testing procedure that mirrors the interview process, oddly enough that works well and for me. In short, sometimes, with some candidates you don’t need to bring them in for an interview to make a decision. They either fail or pass right there and then just through observation.

The other thing I didn't add was my own person experience and development. The stuff I learned as a result of my training, the awareness of my body and what I am doing, the things I have come to figured out, and the stuff I was taught all help me form an opinion as well.

Now all that may not measure up for some others, but I am not using their opinions.

Dan's stuff I believe isn't unique, meaning it isn't something that can only be accessed through him. I would like to understand how the fascia aspect of his stuff works. I have asked my doctors in various specializations about this. It is my understanding from talking to Chinese martial artists the idea of the fascia tissue playing a role in a martial arts technique is an old one. I would like to see a scientific study on that because it sounds fascinating! Well because it is easy for anyone to fake it. Or just say I sent him flying across the room because I used my facisa. I am not suggesting Dan is faking it. I am saying I would like to look into it more, and a scientific /medical study would be very tight to read. -Dan being in the study of course if he wanted to, and be something he might be interested in.

Last edited by Buck : 10-03-2009 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 10-03-2009, 12:56 PM   #107
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote:
If you had true internal power, you wouldn't be reacting to Dan Harden's posts.
If you DO have True Internal Power, then you WILL react to this post.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-03-2009, 01:07 PM   #108
Rob Watson
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Russ Qureshi wrote: View Post
Hello Mr. Watson,

You're a lucky man to have access to Angier Sensei.

Cheers,

Russ
Yes indeed. Mr. Angier has a fairly regular seminar schedule so is actually accessible for a great many folks. One simply needs to make the effort.

Thanks

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 10-03-2009, 03:47 PM   #109
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Michael Hacker wrote: View Post
If you have True Internal Power, you won't react to this post.
Actually, Mr. Hacker, no. As is the topic of this thread, "IT" is definable and has specifics that are not able to be overlooked. at all. IP, IT, aiki, etc has all to do with a body skill and nothing to do with "harmony". Not that you can't use aiki as a foundation for spirituality, as Ueshiba amply proved.

Once you have trained with someone who has aiki to a level where it can be used in a freestyle environment, you realize that quite a bit of everything else is made of paper-mache.

Imagine top level judoka getting their rears handed to them by Ueshiba. Imagine Tomiki just standing there with his hand out and no one can throw him. Definable quality that is reproducible.

I believe aiki is missing from Aikido. If you take a step outside the box and think ... imagine that aiki is missing from your aikido. What would you do?
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Old 10-03-2009, 04:58 PM   #110
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I believe aiki is missing from Aikido. If you take a step outside the box and think ... imagine that aiki is missing from your aikido.
1. It was a joke. Thanks for playing.
2. You know who my teacher is and who I have as a peer group.

Michael Hacker
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Old 10-03-2009, 09:57 PM   #111
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: What is "IT"?

I don't have true internal power.
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Old 10-03-2009, 09:58 PM   #112
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Re: What is "IT"?

neither do i, but it's okay.
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Old 10-03-2009, 10:30 PM   #113
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
"IT" is definable and has specifics .. IP, IT, aiki, etc has all to do with a body skill and nothing to do with "harmony".
How about: maintaining and generating harmony in the body..maybe?
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Old 10-03-2009, 10:35 PM   #114
iron horse
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Re: What is "IT"?

Interesting thread. I think we are all trying to find IT. How about this vid? One guy is trying to make it work against resistance but he can't - until the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuOPWVgiy74
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Old 10-03-2009, 10:59 PM   #115
Upyu
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
How about: maintaining and generating harmony in the body..maybe?
Maintaining rather than generating.
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Old 10-03-2009, 11:13 PM   #116
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

good point.
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Old 10-04-2009, 12:38 AM   #117
Upyu
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Ian Holm wrote: View Post
Interesting thread. I think we are all trying to find IT. How about this vid? One guy is trying to make it work against resistance but he can't - until the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuOPWVgiy74
Lot's o' shoulder, and that kind of static resistance is typically the easiest kind to work with.
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Old 10-04-2009, 08:37 AM   #118
Buck
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
There is allot of discussion on IT. Does Aikido have IT, what is IT, Doesn't Aikido have IT. What art does have IT which is missing in Aikido, etc. etc. etc. Some look at IT as I see it, as a Holy Grail. Something many go out in search of that isn't easy to find. Something that is coveted highly, but seemingly elusive. Will IT ever be found? Does IT really exist? What is IT, is there a general consensus among those searching for IT, or those who say they have IT? Is IT suppose to be a holy grail of sorts?

Seriously, IT is getting like Ki. It has so many different takes on IT, it is hard to define and everyone has their own definition of what IT is! So I ask what is IT?
Here is what started this thread. Initially I was confused on what was meant by IT. But now I know it referred to Internal Powers.

What I also did in asking my questions, is the foreshadowing. I did this because I didn't want the thread to be too narrow limiting discussion or discover of what IT is and what it means to a simply entry of dictionary.

What I am find interesting is IT as discussed by many is no different then chi or ki in how it is looked and defined. IT is some mysterious power that is only defined by, "you have to feel it."

And for some reason Aikido doesn't have IT. Which is the other half of the criticisms suffered by Aikido, which is Aikido doesn't work in the street/ a real. Yet Aikido is more popular then the arts these critics and there are such critics that post here as members and a part of this Aikido forum community. It's just
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Old 10-04-2009, 09:05 AM   #119
Buck
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Re: What is "IT"?

[CORRECTED POST] Here is what started this thread. Initially I was confused on what was meant by IT. But now I know it referred to Internal Powers.

What I also did in asking my questions, is the foreshadowing. I did this because I didn't want the thread to be too narrow limiting discussion or discover of what IT is and what it means to a simply entry of dictionary.

What I am find interesting is IT as discussed by many is no different then chi or ki in how it is looked and defined. IT is some mysterious power that is only defined by, "you have to feel it."

And for some reason Aikido doesn't have IT. Which is the other half of the criticisms suffered by Aikido, which is Aikido doesn't work in the street/ a real fight. Yet Aikido is more popular then the arts of these critics. These such critics are also a part of this Aikido forum community. It's just :crazy
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Old 10-04-2009, 08:50 PM   #120
stan baker
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Re: What is "IT"?

Hi Phillip
I think your missing the main point, Like you said you are not a expert in these matters.There are degrees of the IT concept out there, everybody is talking about IT,and some that can actually do.There are less that can show high level and teach in a direct way.

stan

w

Last edited by stan baker : 10-04-2009 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 10-04-2009, 11:45 PM   #121
Buck
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Phillip
I think your missing the main point, Like you said you are not a expert in these matters.There are degrees of the IT concept out there, everybody is talking about IT,and some that can actually do.There are less that can show high level and teach in a direct way.

stan
Hey Stan,

Yea, I am not an expert. I am honest about that. The word expert is often over-used, misused, used too much and loosely used. I am realistic on my skills. And, I have tools on determining expertise, and it is more than a mere tip, tweak or trick upon the conventions of Aikido. I feel my perspectives and tools are the standard accepted methods for rational thinking. I am not out to get anyone, am only saying this is what my instrumentation is reading in this matter.

I have access to allot of knowledgable people, doctors, intellects, martial artists of various styles, expertise and ethnicities. I have been exposed to lots of martial arts feats. I don't base my conclusions on a single source. But, rather my conclusions are base on the most extensive research I can possibly do.

In addition, take Dan for example, since we both are aware of him. He has extensively talked about internal power and his abilities. And he has done it in great detail on how it is done. From the volumes of information he has produced I can take that and present it to qualified experts in various fields to evaluate the information. I can also test it myself. From there I get a pretty good picture. And thus, make my evaluations.

There is one thing that catches my attention, Dan's IT isn't something he uniquely created, it seems to be and according to him a composite of stuff he put together and made it applicable to his conventions. He took a bit from here and there and made it a repair kit for Aikido, calling the kit at one time Aiki. He has support from a group of people, and within that group is a couple of high ranking Aikidoka. My question then is, what qualifiable improvement has Dan's IT provided. And what is the scale of measurement of Dan's IT in improving their skill? Lastly, what is the dynamic of Dan's IT. Is a broad dynamic? This is just thoughts, and questions I ask, and I am not soliciting answers. Just providing questions I would ask to gather more information on something. I would, if intending to get answers, ask Dan directly to determine the depth and scope of his skill. I don't have to feel the effects of a stun gun to understand its power or how it works. I can look at its specs for that.

Therefore, I do feel, I am not missing your point. I could be still. There is a possibility. I could be over-looking somethings. But within the scope of this thread I don't think so. Unless, there is someone out there with IT power that is unexplainable, so remarkable, and beyond our immediate intellectual understanding. If so then I would call them an expert. But, I haven't found or see anyone like that yet. Not to say they are not out there, or never where. But there isn't too many immediate, Teslas, Curies, Childes, Jordans, Pershings , Tomyris, Evites, Callas, and so on. Each standing out above the rest to be so notable, and so greatly admired by the world. This too is one of my criteria, benchmarks- those kind of things. It's a package deal kind of thing where I have many tools I use.

I may miss the point, by not putting my tools of thought, evaluation, and reason to the side. If that is the case, than I guess, I am missing out. But I would have hate to see how far the western world would have gotten if we abandoned, neglected, or never used such tools.

Last edited by Buck : 10-04-2009 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:08 AM   #122
jss
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I may miss the point, by not putting my tools of thought, evaluation, and reason to the side. If that is the case, than I guess, I am missing out. But I would have hate to see how far the western world would have gotten if we abandoned, neglected, or never used such tools.
The best that the Western world has done by using the tools of thought, evaluation, and reason, is René Descartes. After reasoning "I think, therefore I am."[1], he had to assume the existence of God to make sure that his experiences of the world outside his head are real and not just an illusion.
All other advances made by Western civilization not only made use of the tools you mentioned, but also of the tools of observation and experimentation.

[1] Which should have been:
Major: There are thoughts.
Minor: These thoughts are mine.
Conclusion: Therefore I am.
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:14 AM   #123
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: What is "IT"?

Can anyone here translate what the hell Buck Burgess is posting?
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:35 AM   #124
Erick Mead
 
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Re: What is "IT"?

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
The best that the Western world has done by using the tools of thought, evaluation, and reason, is René Descartes. After reasoning "I think, therefore I am."[1], he had to assume the existence of God to make sure that his experiences of the world outside his head are real
He could have stopped at "I" ... , -- but, really, premising existence on the ephemerality of thought? Foolish really, and cause of much mischief -- picking as we are around the debris of the many palaces-in-air that followed... Ultimately, there is only Desire which causes Movement toward the Desired -- the rest is history ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:44 AM   #125
Marc Abrams
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Re: What is "IT"?

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Can anyone here translate what the hell Buck Burgess is posting?
Lorel:

Translation Provided
:

1) All that I am is a keyboard warrior with a lot of writing without anything tangible behind the writings.

2) I NEED attention!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3) I am a sterling example of "I don't know what I don't know" and "a little bit of information can be dangerous."

4) If you feed my need for attention, you can be sure that I will bite the hand that feeds me.

Conclusions:
The song from Simon and Garfunkel-> "The Sound of Silence"

Marc Abrams
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