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Old 09-15-2009, 04:42 PM   #26
Cynrod
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Re: "Indians"

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
I wonder what would happen if the original "offensive" phrase was reissued as "too many coaches, not enough players" or "too many generals, not enough privates" or... Am I going to draw the ire of offended referees or colonels?
Sigh..
W
That's what I am thinking about. "Too Many Leaders But Not Enough Followers" or "Too Many Teachers But Not Enough Students".

"For The Secret That The Warrior Seeks: You Must Know That The Basic Principles Lie In The Study Of The Spirit." - Morihei Ueshiba
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:49 PM   #27
Keith Larman
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Re: "Indians"

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Rod Lansangan wrote: View Post
That's what I am thinking about. "Too Many Leaders But Not Enough Followers"
Nah, followers are usually mindless drones following along without an independent thought in their head. Most have more intelligence and pride themselves on some degree of self-determination. That is just another way the man uses to keep the masses down...

Quote:
Rod Lansangan wrote: View Post
or "Too Many Teachers But Not Enough Students".
Yes, but teachers shouldn't adopt that sort of "God-like" attitude of knowing everything. Even teachers can learn from students and the students themselves teach the teachers. So are you suggesting some sort of strict class delineation that further alienates both sides from each other?

Sorry, couldn't resist...

There was an old quote that I wish I could find the source of. Maybe it was just one of those weird hallucinatory memories from my old college days, but I think it was Hume describing John Locke as a "man who was born without skin covering his nerves". I've always loved that expression.

Some people are easily offended. Too easily. Even more interesting are those who get offended for someone else... Kinda like Kanye West I suppose...

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Old 09-15-2009, 05:08 PM   #28
Marc Abrams
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Re: "Indians"

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
If you ever meet Toby Threadgil, ask him about trying to order a steak at a Vegan Restaurant in Colorado...
Keith:

I know Toby, and I love that story. I told him my theory: Cows eat grass, therefore they are vegetarians. So when I eat a steak, I am having a vegetarian meal. Logic works for me all of the time !

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:49 PM   #29
Keith Larman
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Re: "Indians"

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Keith:

I know Toby, and I love that story. I told him my theory: Cows eat grass, therefore they are vegetarians. So when I eat a steak, I am having a vegetarian meal. Logic works for me all of the time !

Regards,

Marc Abrams
I just love the line "give me something that used to have a face..." Kinda cuts to the chase, neh?

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Old 09-15-2009, 06:11 PM   #30
Darryl Cowens
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Re: "Indians"

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
I wonder what would happen if the original "offensive" phrase was reissued as "too many coaches, not enough players" or "too many generals, not enough privates" or... Am I going to draw the ire of offended referees or colonels?
Sigh..
W
Does this remind you of the marshmellow eskimo debarcle too?
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:39 PM   #31
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Re: "Indians"

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
When I filled my documents in Immigration in Dallas, I ticked the mark "Caucasian". The (afro-american) woman at the counter looked at me, checked my nationality and removed the "Caucasian" mark to tick "Hispanic". Now that infuriated me. I'm Spanish, not Hispanic. And I'm Caucasian, not Hispanic.
"Hispanic" as the term is used here in the US simply means someone that's from a Spanish-speaking country or speaks Spanish as their primary language. It's more of a ethnic designation than a racial one. There are white Hispanics, black Hispanics, mezito Hispanics, etc...but you're still considered Hispanic.
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:18 PM   #32
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Re: "Indians"

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
When I filled my documents in Immigration in Dallas, I ticked the mark "Caucasian". The (afro-american) woman at the counter looked at me, checked my nationality and removed the "Caucasian" mark to tick "Hispanic". Now that infuriated me. I'm Spanish, not Hispanic. And I'm Caucasian, not Hispanic.

That was like 11 years ago. Now? I don't care. Only care about the idiocy of that woman and many more like her.

The young girl that Keith mentioned was, more probably, actually a Hispanic, not a Latina. It was mostly Spanish blood that was spreaded over the place, not that much Italian (or Genovese).

Kevin, I don't know you, but isn't it a fact that your "race" origins can be traced back to the Caucas? Maybe I'm very wrong, and I usually am .

What I'm sure about is that my wife is a purebreed Javanese .
Well, I can't find the info right now, but not all people of Northern European descent trace there roots back to the Caucas areas. I think it is as outdated as calling African Americans "Africans", or Mexicans "Spanish" or Native Americans, "Indians".

My native roots come out of Western, Northern Europe, (France and England), so I would prefer the term "European American" since we seem to be standardizing that way along lines of Ethnic Heritage these days.

The word "Caucasian" or Caucasoid, would really mean in these terms the same as Negroid,Mongoloid. Kinda outdated...but hey to each is own.

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Old 09-15-2009, 09:19 PM   #33
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Re: "Indians"

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Keith:

I know Toby, and I love that story. I told him my theory: Cows eat grass, therefore they are vegetarians. So when I eat a steak, I am having a vegetarian meal. Logic works for me all of the time !

Regards,

Marc Abrams
I will ask him about this for sure. BTW I am a vegetarian/vegan FWIW.

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Old 09-16-2009, 07:53 AM   #34
Marc Abrams
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Re: "Indians"

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I will ask him about this for sure. BTW I am a vegetarian/vegan FWIW.
Kevin:

It has been my experience that the vegan's have more "issues" with us omnivores than the other way around. I consider the whole topic a non-issue. I have a high school reunion the weekend of Toby's seminar, so I will have to miss you on that end. Invitation to the seminar at my place is still good. I am seeing Wade this weekend and will say hi to him for you!

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:19 AM   #35
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Re: "Indians"

Off topic, but oh well. I am not a big PETA fan. I suppose they have their place in the world, but I don't think that you win anyone over to the other side through militant and shock tactics.

I do it because it is right for me. As Ghandi said "be the change you want to see in the world."

To put it back on topic, I think that this is what is important about the whole issue of PC, being offended, offensive etc. At some point we have to realize that in order to transcend stuff, we need to start emulating and living how we think we should and set the example.

There are plenty of people willing to be victims or want to feel special because they are doing something different. I don't have time for that nonsense!

I think it is more important to just do what you do and just maybe folks will become more aware.

that said, Don't patronize Dunken Donuts!

http://dunkincruelty.com/investigation

(Had to get that in there!....doing my best Kayne West imitation!)

Yea say Hi to Wade! and thanks again for the invite. Not sure I can get two weekends out of my wife though!

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Old 09-16-2009, 08:39 AM   #36
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Re: "Indians"

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Kevin:

It has been my experience that the vegan's have more "issues" with us omnivores than the other way around. I consider the whole topic a non-issue. I have a high school reunion the weekend of Toby's seminar, so I will have to miss you on that end. Invitation to the seminar at my place is still good. I am seeing Wade this weekend and will say hi to him for you!

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Well, there was that time I took some tempeh to a barbeque in West Texas and asked to add it to the grill... If I recall correctly, I think that caused some "issues."

OTOH, I know some vegetablarians who seem to use food issues for social control.
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Old 09-16-2009, 03:51 PM   #37
Mark Freeman
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Re: "Indians"

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Well, I can't find the info right now, but not all people of Northern European descent trace there roots back to the Caucas areas. I think it is as outdated as calling African Americans "Africans", or Mexicans "Spanish" or Native Americans, "Indians".

My native roots come out of Western, Northern Europe, (France and England), so I would prefer the term "European American" since we seem to be standardizing that way along lines of Ethnic Heritage these days.

The word "Caucasian" or Caucasoid, would really mean in these terms the same as Negroid,Mongoloid. Kinda outdated...but hey to each is own.
Hi Kevin,

If you go further back, we can all trace our ancestry back to Africa. So you could legitimately call yourself a European American African
As we all decended from the same place and share the same roots, all of the (sometimes odd) labeling serve only to separate us as people. Surely we are just people/distant relatives living in different places?

regards

Mark

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Old 09-16-2009, 04:17 PM   #38
Mike Sigman
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Re: "Indians"

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Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
If you go further back, we can all trace our ancestry back to Africa. So you could legitimately call yourself a European American African
As we all decended from the same place and share the same roots, all of the (sometimes odd) labeling serve only to separate us as people. Surely we are just people/distant relatives living in different places?
Anthropology has been one of my hobby interests for some time and I've watched the Africa debate go on for a long, long time. There's a number of anthropologists who simply hold to the position that there is a lot of evidence that early Man arose in Africa simply because Africa is where most of the digging has been done. If we dug as assiduously in other places, we might find evidence of even earlier man in some other location (remember that the continents were not even in the same place or shape back in those days, so "Africa" is really a meaningless term). Successful animals spread to far places back in those times and its difficult to say exactly where the point of origin was. Just to show you how things can suddenly change, look at this recent article:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...n-1783861.html

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:40 PM   #39
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Re: "Indians"

Can vegetarians eat animal crackers? Hehe... I know they aren't animals..... but they LOOK like them.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 09-16-2009, 04:57 PM   #40
Mark Freeman
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Re: "Indians"

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Anthropology has been one of my hobby interests for some time and I've watched the Africa debate go on for a long, long time. There's a number of anthropologists who simply hold to the position that there is a lot of evidence that early Man arose in Africa simply because Africa is where most of the digging has been done. If we dug as assiduously in other places, we might find evidence of even earlier man in some other location (remember that the continents were not even in the same place or shape back in those days, so "Africa" is really a meaningless term). Successful animals spread to far places back in those times and its difficult to say exactly where the point of origin was. Just to show you how things can suddenly change, look at this recent article:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...n-1783861.html

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Hi Mike,

thanks for the link, v. interesting article, however, as is usual in these matters, there are quite a few may's, could lead to's and it's possible that's.
Quote:
Professor Lordkipanidze raised the prospect that Homo erectus may have evolved in Eurasia from the more primitive-looking Dmanisi population and then migrated back to Africa to eventually give rise to our own species, Homo sapiens -- modern man.
.

I believe there is a top scientist in China that is sure he has the fossil evidence to prove that the chinese have evolved as separate and distinct race of sapiens. A view which seems to be popular with many chinese, but so far has no acceptance from non chinese scientists.

As time goes on I'm sure we'll dig up more fossil evidence to question the currently held views. Good, we should always be questioning currently held views/beliefs. They may never be able to pinpoint the exact point of origin geographically, however, the fact that modern man decended from a fairly small number wherever it was, should lead us towards celebrating shared humanity rather than focusing on difference.

All power to the diggers I say!

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 09-16-2009, 05:26 PM   #41
Mike Sigman
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Re: "Indians"

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Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
thanks for the link, v. interesting article, however, as is usual in these matters, there are quite a few may's, could lead to's and it's possible that's.
Well, that was my point... Africa as a point of origin is only a maybe and given the time, spread of the human animal (or any animal) as its survival mechanisms proved successful, there's not really that much we can say with certainty about old bones.
Quote:

I believe there is a top scientist in China that is sure he has the fossil evidence to prove that the chinese have evolved as separate and distinct race of sapiens. A view which seems to be popular with many chinese, but so far has no acceptance from non chinese scientists.
Well, there seems to be one factor in favor of some Asian role because the most primitive form of one type of protein found in man is found in Asians, for some reason. It should have been found widely in Africans, if the African origin was to be a nicely-packaged theory. Bear in mind that there are a number of ethnic subsets of indigenous "Africans" (reflecting various successful survival adaptations of geography, food availability, procreation, culture/war, etc.). But of all those subsets (giving us a lot of choice from which to check proteins, etc.) it's odd that some subsets of Asians have that protein, instead. Another factor to consider is the indication that some 70,000 years ago the human genetic pool was mysteriously bottle-necked; current theory is that there was a cataclysm caused by a super-volcano explosion.

Quote:
As time goes on I'm sure we'll dig up more fossil evidence to question the currently held views. Good, we should always be questioning currently held views/beliefs. They may never be able to pinpoint the exact point of origin geographically, however, the fact that modern man decended from a fairly small number wherever it was, should lead us towards celebrating shared humanity rather than focusing on difference.
I dunno.... Mother Nature is more of a "may the most successful succeed" than a love-and-peace type. Don't try to toss the old dame out, just yet. Without her, you wouldn't be here today... and incidentally, that's more the attitude of a Taoist (life is what it is, not what you try to make it to be).

Best.

Mike
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Old 09-16-2009, 05:55 PM   #42
Mark Freeman
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Re: "Indians"

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I dunno.... Mother Nature is more of a "may the most successful succeed" than a love-and-peace type. Don't try to toss the old dame out, just yet. Without her, you wouldn't be here today... and incidentally, that's more the attitude of a Taoist (life is what it is, not what you try to make it to be).
Is the flower behind my ear showing from underneath my pseudo scientific fringe I agree that Mother Nature is all about suceeding, all life is in a never ending striving to keep itself going. I wasn't particularly espousing love and peace, as much as like the idea
The older and I hope marginally wiser I get the more see that life 'is what it is'. Still, I enjoy watching the scientific community uncovering the abundant evidence, that continues to enrich our understanding of human history. My curiosity in all of this, is that a frighteningly large number of homo sapiens have evolved to the point, where there is a subsection that is truely able to completely discount the millions of tons of fossil evidence that shows, that life on earth is millions of years old and arrive at the conclusion that it appeared by magic some 10,000 years ago!

regards,

Mark

Last edited by Mark Freeman : 09-16-2009 at 05:57 PM.

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Old 09-16-2009, 06:46 PM   #43
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Re: "Indians"

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Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
My curiosity in all of this, is that a frighteningly large number of homo sapiens have evolved to the point, where there is a subsection that is truely able to completely discount the millions of tons of fossil evidence that shows, that life on earth is millions of years old and arrive at the conclusion that it appeared by magic some 10,000 years ago!
I completely agree. I'm also astounded that there is a subsection of humanity that believes in "science" but which thinks that the evolution of various survival strategies never occurred and that all people are "equal" in all ways. That's also a religion. In fact, we're all animals, some with different survival strategies, and until that actuality is accepted and dealt with we're going to create our own problems.

The idea of a "Tao" is to accept reality, get around it, and deal with it for what it is, not pretend that it's something else. What a lot of people fail to realize is that the "Taoist Priest" in the local village was the realist who helped people deal with reality, helped them build a new house or outhouse, and didn't try to baffle them with B.S. based on some false view of reality.

Best.

Mike
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:05 PM   #44
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Re: "Indians"

The word "Caucasian" or Caucasoid, would really mean in these terms the same as Negroid,Mongoloid. Kinda outdated...but hey to each is own.[/quote]

Very outdated thinking sprung from German anthopologist (Johann F. Blumenbach 1752-1840) whose ideas were highjacked by those more concerned with racial purity and superiority than scienctific inquiry.
Caucasus is derived from (according to Pliny) a Sythian word/phrase kroy-khasis which means 'ice shining white snowy mountain' and has nothing to do with 'white folk'. Anyone who thinks white folks are from there needs a bit of some 'learnin'. I really got into it with one of my professors when he insisted I was from those lonely mountains and did not take too kindly to my pointing out his outdated racist based opinions on the matter. Another case of the teacher learning from the student - I didn't learn much in that class.

Ever take a look at the National Geographic Geneographic project? They use DNA to build a 'map' showing the most likely patterns of migration based on genetic information. Still leaves a lot up in that air for interpretation, etc but it is pretty intereseting nonetheless. Note that there is supposedly great resistance to participation in this study from the aboriginal peoples of the americas. I thought it was well worth the $100 to find out my info.

Thanks

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 09-16-2009, 08:19 PM   #45
Mike Sigman
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Re: "Indians"

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
The word "Caucasian" or Caucasoid, would really mean in these terms the same as Negroid,Mongoloid. Kinda outdated...but hey to each is own.

Very outdated thinking sprung from German anthopologist (Johann F. Blumenbach 1752-1840) whose ideas were highjacked by those more concerned with racial purity and superiority than scienctific inquiry.
Oh, I dunno... the idea that "the ancient folks were not as smart as we modern people" is a millenia-old conceit. I sometimes go to old and hard-to-reach gold mines with some old-timers looking for the gold that the "old miners" missed because they didn't know as much as the modern geologists. You'd be surprised at how many times there's nothing there because they weren't as dumb as the smart modern guys think.

Certainly there are obvious differences between various subsets of any animal species. Some people are better able to withstand cold; witness the epicanthal folds ("slanted eyes") and helpful fat-depostions of Asians, indicating that they evolved in very cold climates. Witness the various skin colorations dependent upon sun-exposure. Witness the various fat-storage mechanisms like steopygia. To pretend that there are no recognizable differences between humans that developed different survival adaptations (for whatever reasons) is fatuous. The trick is to understand these things in the larger context without losing sight of reality.
Quote:
I really got into it with one of my professors when he insisted I was from those lonely mountains and did not take too kindly to my pointing out his outdated racist based opinions on the matter. Another case of the teacher learning from the student - I didn't learn much in that class.
Why go further, since so many can learn from you?
Quote:
Ever take a look at the National Geographic Geneographic project? They use DNA to build a 'map' showing the most likely patterns of migration based on genetic information. Still leaves a lot up in that air for interpretation, etc but it is pretty intereseting nonetheless. Note that there is supposedly great resistance to participation in this study from the aboriginal peoples of the americas. I thought it was well worth the $100 to find out my info.
What could they tell you that you didn't already know?

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:45 PM   #46
Mike Sigman
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Re: "Indians"

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Anyone who thinks white folks are from there needs a bit of some 'learnin'. I really got into it with one of my professors when he insisted I was from those lonely mountains and did not take too kindly to my pointing out his outdated racist based opinions on the matter.
I have to go back to this one. I wasn't there, but it's possible that you completely misunderstood the idea.

A species has to "diversify" to some extent, just to survive. In other words, various genetically-different sub-species help assure the survivability of a species in case of catastrophy, changing environment, and so forth. Suppose, for instance that the world changes suddenly and catastrophically due to climate, war, meteor-bombardment, or whatever.

At the moment, tool-makers seem to be in the dominant position. Suppose the climate changes and the people best-suited for the change are, let's say, some tribe in the South Pacific... that helps keep the species alive, just as one example of many things that could happen. Could be an influenza virus or a change in the solar output... who knows what the stressor may be that wipes out part of a species while another part survives and dominates. A person who doesn't see the value in having various survival strategies available for the species is simply a narrow-minded bigot. No matter how smart they think they are in comparison to the "common man" or uninformed professors. You and he may have simply been talking on totally different wavelengths.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 09-16-2009, 11:28 PM   #47
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Re: "Indians"

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I have to go back to this one. I wasn't there, but it's possible that you completely misunderstood the idea.
Oh, we were on the same wavelength and I seriously doubt if he learned anything after he got tenure. Crusty old fart stuck in his ways and too blind to see just how wrong he was (those were his words). I think the best thing to come out of it was everyone in that class was really keen on questioning long held beliefs and did not simply accept as fact the teaching. Before our 'exchange' it was the usual take notes, get by just enough to pass the exams and move on but not so after wards.

I looked him up about 7 years after the fact and we had a cordial time and he was much more relaxed and less pompous- I was much more of an ass and cocky too. Still working on that ...

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 09-16-2009, 11:35 PM   #48
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Re: "Indians"

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
A person who doesn't see the value in having various survival strategies available for the species is simply a narrow-minded bigot. No matter how smart they think they are in comparison to the "common man" or uninformed professors.
ad hominem? From you? " Even an idiot can see I'm correct!" - not very convincing.

OT but it is not 'survival of the fittest' by any stretch ... lucky to find a niche is more like it.

Maybe I'm just too smart by half?

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 09-16-2009, 11:48 PM   #49
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Freaky! Re: "Indians"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Oh, I dunno... the idea that "the ancient folks were not as smart as we modern people" is a millenia-old conceit. I sometimes go to old and hard-to-reach gold mines with some old-timers looking for the gold that the "old miners" missed because they didn't know as much as the modern geologists. You'd be surprised at how many times there's nothing there because they weren't as dumb as the smart modern guys think.
Non-sequitur. I don't even know where this is coming from ... I was just giving some history of where the terms came from. Sorry to hear you wasted your time fooling around in a musty old mine.

[quote=Mike Sigman; Why go further, since so many can learn from you? What could they tell you that you didn't already know?

Mike Sigman[/QUOTE]

It has nothing to do with me. One is free to do some research on their own. In fact don't pay any attention to me at all! Most seem to prefer their comfortable beliefs despite, or in spite of, the facts.

It is my sincere hope that some do learn from me to go and verify things for themselves. That is what I did and found out what was presented as obvious fact turned out to be exceptionally wrong and it didn't take that much effort to find out.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 09-16-2009, 11:55 PM   #50
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 698
United_States
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Re: "Indians"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
What could they tell you that you didn't already know?

Mike Sigman
My family oral and documented history (grandmother is a geneologist) goes back to the 13th century. According to the genetic evidence they traced a history from ~65,000 years ago up to about 10,000 years ago - I didn't know anything about that part. Not much from the 13th century back 10,000 years so there is plenty of wiggle room!

According to the genographic project data and interpretation my genes started in Africa and ended up in the fertile crescent. They don't say anything about the shades of the epidermis ....

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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