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Old 09-18-2009, 04:04 PM   #51
C. David Henderson
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Re: Acorn

Mike, I try to focus, really I do.

It sounds like then you read the article from Salon?

I posted it because (a) like some of the other material that has been posted on this thread about ACORN it is an opinion piece, and (b) it seems echos what some other posters, including Ron, have suggested. (Sorry Ron, if I got that wrong.)

FWIW, I stopped reading Conason quite some time ago, because he seemed too partisan, even for me.

My only defense to reading him this time is because you got me somewhat interested in this subject, ironically. Mike, you made me do it.

Focus, focus, okay, sorry. Let's take this quote:

"Owing to the idiocy of a few ACORN employees, notoriously caught in a videotape 'sting' sponsored by a conservative Web site and publicized by Fox News, that campaign [against ACORN] has scored significant victories on Capitol Hill and in the media.

Both the Senate and the House have voted over the past few days to curtail any federal funding of ACORN's activities. While that congressional action probably won't destroy the group, whose funding does not mainly depend on government largesse, the ban inflicts severe damage on its reputation
."

I suspect there are some statements here you might agree are factually accurate. Am I wrong?

Here, I think you'll likely disagree:

"Yet ACORN's troubles should be considered in the context of a history of honorable service to the dispossessed and impoverished. No doubt it was fun to dupe a few morons into providing tax advice to a 'pimp and ho,' but what ACORN actually does, every day, is help struggling families with the Earned Income Tax Credit (whose benefits were expanded by both Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton). And while the idea of getting housing assistance for a brothel was clever, what ACORN really does, every day, is help those same working families avoid foreclosure and stay in their homes."

There are a number of largely factual assertions in the argument here -- are they false?

The following, I think, sums up what a lot of people on the left would say, and I admit, sums up my impression too at least up until now:

"Over the past several years, a handful of ACORN employees have admitted falsifying names and signatures on registration cards, in order to boost the pay they received. When ACORN officials discovered those cases, they informed the state authorities and turned in the miscreants. ... The proportion of fraud is infinitesimal. For example, a half-dozen ACORN workers were charged with registration fraud or other election-related crimes in the 2004 election. They had completed fewer than two dozen false registrations -- out of more than a million new voters registered by ACORN during that cycle. The mythology that suggests that thousands or even millions of illegal registrants voted is itself a fraud.

***
To claim that the stupid behavior of a half-dozen employees should discredit a national group with offices in more than 75 cities staffed by many thousands of employees and volunteers is like saying that Mark Sanford or John Ensign have discredited every Republican governor or senator. ...

ACORN has pledged to institute reforms, with the appointment of a distinguished outside panel to oversee that process. ..."


(Edited to remove more blantant Conasonisms.)

Are the factual assertions contained in last quote, in your view, false?

Here's where I'm currently at in my thinking:

To talk meaningfully about ACORN the organization, not individual ACORN employees who should be sacked and, if they committed possible crimes, criminally investigated, I'd want either evidence leading up the chain of command or evidence that any corruption was systematic, not isolated.

It's really the same dynamic as the torture debate (sorry, I'm not trying to change the subject, just make a point); is it a "few bad apples," or must it originate at a higher level. It's the same basic question to be asked if, say 60 minutes took a hidden camera to Midas to prove the chain were a bunch of rip-off artists, for that matter.

You may have circumstantial evidence that points in the direction of organizational responsibility that I either haven't heard or have overlooked. I certainly accept you've done much more research on this issue than I. Can you point me towards it?

Best,

cdh
 
Old 09-18-2009, 04:46 PM   #52
Mike Sigman
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Re: Acorn

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
My only defense to reading him this time is because you got me somewhat interested in this subject, ironically. Mike, you made me do it.
When I'm serious, I'm a literalist, David. I suspect, based on having read some of your perspectives, that you're not a much of a literalist as I am. I haven't made you do anything... let's be clear about that. Slipping personal pronouns into a discussion is the first step to making an argument ad hominem, rather than issue-oriented.
Quote:
Focus, focus, okay, sorry. Let's take this quote:

"Owing to the idiocy of a few ACORN employees, notoriously caught in a videotape 'sting' sponsored by a conservative Web site and publicized by Fox News, that campaign [against ACORN] has scored significant victories on Capitol Hill and in the media.
Notice that illicit/illegal behavior becomes vaguely trivialized into the term "idiocy". I.e., nothing wrong was really done; it was just "idiocy" and only done by a "few". How few people in ACORN have been demonstrably involved in illegal activity over a number of years? Can you spot the bias and skewing of the truth? That's not facts; there are a number of websites that fully list the numbers of ACORN employees and administrators that have been involved in legally questionable/wrong conduct.
Quote:
I suspect there are some statements here you might agree are factually accurate. Am I wrong?
Obviously, I don't agree, as I noted above. Perhaps you call illegal behavior "idiocy", but then jurisprudence may be different in New Mexico.
Quote:

Here, I think you'll likely disagree:

"Yet ACORN's troubles should be considered in the context of a history of honorable service to the dispossessed and impoverished. No doubt it was fun to dupe a few morons into providing tax advice to a 'pimp and ho,' but what ACORN actually does, every day, is help struggling families with the Earned Income Tax Credit (whose benefits were expanded by both Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton). And while the idea of getting housing assistance for a brothel was clever, what ACORN really does, every day, is help those same working families avoid foreclosure and stay in their homes."

There are a number of largely factual assertions in the argument here -- are they false?
Well, we get back to the idea that illegal behavior is not viewed a illegal when it happens to be "for a good cause that Democrats rationalize it as". Either it's a country of laws or it's not, David. If laws are selective, then allow me to select the ones that I think are good and allow me to ignore the laws I don't think should apply. But you don't really want everyone to pick and choose the laws they'll obey; what you really want is for people to do things the way you view them as correct. And "it's for a good cause", I'm sure.

A man holds up a liquor store. He works hard, usually, and he's been kind to his family and his neighbors. Therefore, the fact that he broke the law should not apply, right? A lot of people think like that, I'm well aware. I'm not arguing against that viewpoint... what I'm saying is let's set the rules and let everyone play equally. If it's to be "pick which laws we want to apply", I want to play, too.

Quote:

The following, I think, sums up what a lot of people on the left would say, and I admit, sums up my impression too at least up until now:

"Over the past several years, a handful of ACORN employees have admitted falsifying names and signatures on registration cards, in order to boost the pay they received. When ACORN officials discovered those cases, they informed the state authorities and turned in the miscreants. ... The proportion of fraud is infinitesimal. For example, a half-dozen ACORN workers were charged with registration fraud or other election-related crimes in the 2004 election. They had completed fewer than two dozen false registrations -- out of more than a million new voters registered by ACORN during that cycle. The mythology that suggests that thousands or even millions of illegal registrants voted is itself a fraud.

***
To claim that the stupid behavior of a half-dozen employees should discredit a national group with offices in more than 75 cities staffed by many thousands of employees and volunteers is like saying that Mark Sanford or John Ensign have discredited every Republican governor or senator. ...

ACORN has pledged to institute reforms, with the appointment of a distinguished outside panel to oversee that process. ..."


(Edited to remove more blantant Conasonisms.)

Are the factual assertions contained in last quote, in your view, false?

Here's where I'm currently at in my thinking:

To talk meaningfully about ACORN the organization, not individual ACORN employees who should be sacked and, if they committed possible crimes, criminally investigated, I'd want either evidence leading up the chain of command or evidence that any corruption was systematic, not isolated.
David, I only glanced through some of the data people are posting about ACORN and SEIU and SDS (these are all interrelated by personnel) and socialist organizations, but it seems like there is a huge amount of questionable facts and relationships. Granted, I didn't look beyond the obvious, but it would probably be something you'd say is indeed suggestive of an organization-wide problem. If you'd look. Or if the liberal media would report it.

What's most troubling to me is that the liberal media is actively attempting to quash facts by not reporting stories. And a lot of liberals are saying essentially that hiding stories, letting certain illegalities, etc., occur is OK because it serves some perceived common good to do a certain amount of unethical or illegal behavior. It's pretty squirrelly thinking, IMO, but really, all I'm saying is "let everyone play by the same rules of selective law enforcement".

Quote:
It's really the same dynamic as the torture debate (sorry, I'm not trying to change the subject, just make a point); is it a "few bad apples," or must it originate at a higher level. It's the same basic question to be asked if, say 60 minutes took a hidden camera to Midas to prove the chain were a bunch of rip-off artists, for that matter.
Good point. Where are liberals actively calling for an investigation into ACORN? "Same dynamic"? I doubt it.
Quote:
You may have circumstantial evidence that points in the direction of organizational responsibility that I either haven't heard or have overlooked. I certainly accept you've done much more research on this issue than I. Can you point me towards it?
Hold on a sec and I'll try a few Google searches, although I'm not going to spend a lot of time doing something that, if you were really curious, you'd have done yourself.

Here, from the keyword search "corruption in ACORN" are a few of the results:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew...rruption-story

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_587573.html

http://brainshavings.com/2008/10/aco...rganizers.html

That last one seems to be some sort of compilation of issues that sounds more like what you're looking for, but I only skimmed it. Seems to be source-based, not just opinion.

I don't mind looking into allegations of CIA "torture", David. As I understand it, none of the "enhanced interrogation techniques" met the approved legal definition of "torture", so we need to be selective in the literal use of our terms. If there was legally defined "torture" done, then let's look into it. Similarly, if there were illegal acts committed organization-wide (or close enough) in ACORN, then let's call for an investigation. My personal suspicion is that most Democrats tolerate illegality when it's done by and for Democrats. I think some of that goes on with Republicans, too, but overall they're the party that worries more about ethical values, so they tend to be laughed at by Democrats for the "family values" stuff (I have some cynical thoughts about both sides, but I'll leave that alone as O/T).

But to quickly sum it up... it appears that your position is to trivialize any illegal acts by ACORN and you'd like them to escape scrutiny because they "do a lot of good"... is that correct? Wasn't that part of the Al Capone defense?

Best.

Mike
 
Old 09-19-2009, 10:05 PM   #53
C. David Henderson
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Re: Acorn

A court decision I once quoted in a brief recounted a time when Justice Frankfurter attended a performance of the play "A Man for all Seasons." You may recall the play is about Sir Thomas Moore, who was executed for refusing to consent to the legitimacy of Henry VIII's disposal of his first wife in favor of Anne Bolen. Moore's son in law urges him to sacrifice legal principle for expedience, and Moore responds asking then once you have torn down all the laws of the land, and Satan turns on you, where will you find shelter.

At this point, Frankfurter leaned forward in his seat and exclaimed -- That's it; that's it.

That is it. If the evidence supports indictments and convictions so be it. Build your case; get the indictment; talk to the jury.

But the laws that define guilt delimit legal innocence. If you are a competent prosecutor you know you have to have evidence of criminal conspiracy, and then, at some threshold, criminal enterprise. You also know that criminal prosecutions ruin lives. You also know, but do your best not to flinch at the thought, of countless crimes of violence, not to mention similar instances of crass dishonesty, crying for attention on your desk.

Seriously, equating ACORN with Al Capone?

Then, to summarize, it's your position that no matter how much good an organization does, if you can prove a few idiots committed crimes you can dismiss the good based on some web sites you've not yourself bothered to digest?

If we've come to this, I'd say let's stop.

Best,
cdh

Last edited by C. David Henderson : 09-19-2009 at 10:14 PM.
 
Old 09-20-2009, 10:23 AM   #54
Mike Sigman
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Re: Acorn

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
But the laws that define guilt delimit legal innocence. If you are a competent prosecutor you know you have to have evidence of criminal conspiracy, and then, at some threshold, criminal enterprise. You also know that criminal prosecutions ruin lives. You also know, but do your best not to flinch at the thought, of countless crimes of violence, not to mention similar instances of crass dishonesty, crying for attention on your desk.
This from a person who is crying for investigations into the CIA/Bush-Admin for putative "torture"?

David, in watching your discussions about ACORN, what's struck me the most is how you simply refuse to discuss some of the obvious elements like the many years of criminal and near-criminal behavior of ACORN. You avoid elements of discussions, IMO, that you don't want to concede and attempt to argue other facets. You're a lawyer. Perhaps a defense lawyer? Member of the TLA?

My background is engineering-related topics and physical sciences... I tend to approach a problem with the attitude that all factors in an equation should be considered. Certainly if there was an organization as corrupt and partisan as ACORN that worked almost exclusively in the interest of the Republicans, I would call for investigations and an end to it. I wouldn't be silly enough to ignore the partisan nature of such an organization and argue that what good it did was an excuse for decades of coercive pressure on banks, voter-registration fraud, and many other irregularities, including mixing accounts (without firewalls) so that U.S. taxpayer-money has been used for political (Democrat) campaign assistance.

That's the difference between the two of us. You see an argument as something to approach with strategy and attention mainly to factors that will make your case; I tend to look at a problem in terms of the whole picture.

As I've said a number of times.... let's don't talk about "laws" unless the idea of "laws" is applicable to everyone. If your judgement is that laws don't apply equally, then you invite other people to begin imposing their ideas of who or what the "law" is. Having been in places and situations where "law" is a tenuous idea, I'd comment that that's a beast you don't want to let out of the cage.
Quote:
Seriously, equating ACORN with Al Capone?
Absolutely. There are arguments being made to investigate ACORN under RICO (RACKETEER INFLUENCED AND CORRUPT ORGANIZATIONS) as we speak. They seem to meet the criteria. They are intertwined with a racketeer-related labor union, they're corrupt, and seem to fit nicely with a statute that would have been used for Capone's organization, if the statute had existed at the time of Capone. Remember, a lot of people in the Chicago area thought it was wrong for the feds to go after Capone.... he "did a lot good."

Quote:
Then, to summarize, it's your position that no matter how much good an organization does, if you can prove a few idiots committed crimes you can dismiss the good based on some web sites you've not yourself bothered to digest?

If we've come to this, I'd say let's stop.
Well, now you've gone from implying there was only some limited minor "idiocy" to "a few idiots committed crimes". You simply would prefer to gloss-over decades of problems, illegal behavior, misallocation of public funds, partisan politics, etc., because you see the problem in terms of your politics. I see the problem as something I would attack on either side of the politics because if the law becomes a malleable trifle, chaos won't be far behind.

But, each to his own view. My position is simply that if the law becomes too diluted and partisan, then people will take the law into their own hands and I don't want that. You can't imagine such a thing happening in reality, I'll bet, so you of course have a different perspective.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 09-20-2009, 02:28 PM   #55
Mike Sigman
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Re: Acorn

Whoops... here's Obama (on ABC) a little while ago.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009...d-closely.html

So Obama, who has worked for ACORN as both a lawyer and a trainer and has extensive ties to ACORN (used them to register people to vote for him and he also paid them almost a million dollars) is only vaguely aware that there is something going on in the news about ACORN and didn't realize that ACORN also gets a lot of taxpayer money????? Only someone living in a fantasyland would buy a line like that from *any* president.

Of course, I guess the thousands who went off on the "Children's Crusades" believed just as firmly in their cause, so a case can be made that you can fool some of the people all the time, but usually it's only those that want to be fooled.

Mike
 
Old 09-21-2009, 10:15 AM   #56
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Acorn

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Of course, I guess the thousands who went off on the "Children's Crusades" believed just as firmly in their cause, so a case can be made that you can fool some of the people all the time, but usually it's only those that want to be fooled.

Mike
That's faith for ya. They obviously don't want to be fooled, but questioning that which is perceived as sacred is a tough thing for most people...pretty much all people...except for me, I'm the exception that proves the rule. Who're you going to believe? Me or your lying eyes?
Mike, would you say ACORN needs to be dismantled or just reformed?

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 09-21-2009, 10:39 AM   #57
Mike Sigman
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Re: Acorn

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Mike, would you say ACORN needs to be dismantled or just reformed?
I dunno. We have a slight problem with some of the initial premises about what ACORN is supposed to do, I think. There was originally a lot of ACORN devoted to "equality" of opportunity, but it became too much of a "special rights" organization with an "anything goes because the underlying concept trumps law and ethics" organization. It boils down to either we equally enforce the laws or we have anarchy. ACORN is a political arm of the Democratic party and is the only organization in the United States that gets away with campaigning politically while at the same time receiving taxpayer money *and* contributions which are not taxed because they're "partially" a tax-exempt organization under a taxable umbrella shield. I.e., the law has been massively twisted by Democrats (who block all attempts to investigate) for ACORN. No Republican counterpart exists and none would be allowed to exist. I would certainly protest if the Republicans had some sort of bogus organization like this and had had it for 40 years.

My 2 cents.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 09-21-2009, 11:07 AM   #58
C. David Henderson
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Re: Acorn

What strikes me Mike is the extent to which you don't do what you say you do, and the extent to which you seem determined to win something here; often by completely misreading what I've said, ignoring what is inconvenient, attributing views to me that fit some phony image you've cobbled together in your own head without having ever met me or knowing my background--- none of which has much to do with the merits of anything and is personally disappointing.

For example, your stereotypes about lawyers and scientists seem just another convenient rhetorical device coming from someone who appears to advance his own position by discrediting other people even as he routinely denounces ad hominem attacks.

My summarization of your position in my last post, BTW, was meant to be unfair as well as the mirror image of your so-called summary. That's why I suggested we drop the discussion, because it seems to have devolved. Guess that went by you.

To me you seem unwilling to look at the other side of the equation here..

I worked my way through college as a cannery worker for seven seasons in a union shop in Oregon. I was, perforce, a member of the Teamsters. I had no illusions about that organization and wanted nothing to do with it.

My last summer there I fell into a machine and ripped a hole in my leg. I couldn't stop working or I'd have lost my job, so I went back the next evening. Compensating for my leg, soon I pulled a muscle in my back. I kept working. As the season wound down, management indicated they intended to put someone who'd been a foreman at another plant in my job driving forklift and have me do heavy labor, even though by seniority rules the driving job should have remained mine, and even though my back hadn't really healed.

So, I found myself talking to the Union. The people who helped me, as far as I could tell, were decent and caring and had never broken a law in their lives.

I endured the attempts of management to fire me, and quit with my seniority intact. The cannery closed that year and moved to Georgia, where they didn't have to worry about organized labor. (The site of the factory is now a campus for the University of Tokyo.)

I've suggested to you two things in this thread: (1) the vast majority of ACORN employees, etc., seem no more guilty of a crime than the local Teamster employees who helped me keep my job and preserve my health; and the good these people do matters when you start talking about ACORN just as the bad does.

It's not trivializing individual crimes in the least; it's just true, and if you only can hold half of that picture in your mind without reacting with anger it suggests something -- what I'm really not sure.

(2) If you want to go further and attribute the alleged crimes of individuals to the organization, you need facts. You seem not to care much about that.

I wholeheartedly advocate that the rule of law, and in particular, rules regarding accomplice liability, apply to allegations involving torture and prisoner abuse as much as to ACORN corruption. I said as much a few posts ago -- guess that was another inconvenient fact that doesn't fit with your stereotype or your aims.

I conclude there is no real chance of a constructive dialogue here. I really don't think you've treated me with respect or heard what I had to say. I decline to continue.

Stay well and take care.

cdh
 
Old 09-21-2009, 10:22 PM   #59
Mike Sigman
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Re: Acorn

Here is an editorial with actual quotes (i.e., actual facts), etc., mostly about the NEA at the top, but the whole column is germane, I think, to the question about ACORN (with mention of Conason, etc., at the bottomish):

http://online.wsj.com/public/article...444082906.html

Mike Sigman
 
Old 09-22-2009, 04:49 PM   #60
Mike Sigman
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Re: Acorn

Good thing it wasn't Bush doing this tap-dance:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...mEditorialPage

Me, I'd be calling for Bush's head if he came even close to something like this. But then... I'm not someone who only goes after one side and pretends that I have keen insight into ethics.
 
Old 09-24-2009, 11:01 PM   #61
Mike Sigman
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Re: Acorn

Ah well, if even Barney Frank jumps ship on ACORN, it's a bad sign. It's hard to be to the Left of Barney, but there are still some out there:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/...entry_id=48215
 
Old 09-25-2009, 09:30 PM   #62
Mike Sigman
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Re: Acorn

Harry Reid to block ACORN probe:

http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/reid-blo...-61438132.html
 
Old 09-26-2009, 11:14 PM   #63
dps
 
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Re: Acorn

From http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache...alresearch.org,

U.S. House of Representatives
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Darrell Issa (CA-49), Ranking Member

Is ACORN Intentionally Structured As a Criminal Enterprise?

Staff Report
U.S. House of Representatives 111th Congress

Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
July 20, 2009

I. Executive Summary

"We should be unfaithful to ourselves if we should ever lose sight of the danger to our liberties if anything
partial or extraneous should infect the purity of our free, fair, virtuous, and independent elections."
President John Adams, Inaugural Address, 1797

The Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) has repeatedly
and deliberately engaged in systemic fraud. Both structurally and operationally, ACORN
hides behind a paper wall of nonprofit corporate protections to conceal a criminal
conspiracy on the part of its directors, to launder federal money in order to pursue a
partisan political agenda and to manipulate the American electorate.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


David

Last edited by dps : 09-26-2009 at 11:17 PM.

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
 
Old 09-27-2009, 02:50 PM   #64
dps
 
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Re: Acorn

From Alan Combs' website "Liberland"
http://www.alan.com/2009/09/23/how-t...ervative-tree/

"How The Anti-Acorn Videos Grew From A Conservative Tree

James O'Keefe III and Hannah Giles, the videographers who exposed wrongdoing at ACORN, didn't just fall out of a tree one day. They each had training at Washington institutions that train ideological conservative journalists."

and

From The Washington Post
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/....html?wprss=44

ACORN Sues O'Keefe, Giles and Breitbart.com

ACORN's general counsel, Arthur Schwartz, said the acts of O'Keefe and Giles in making the hidden-camera taping were "clear violations of Maryland law."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Giles and O'Keefe may have had help in preparing themselves before doing the videos and they may have broken a Maryland law prohibiteing audio recording someone without their permission.
Does this this taint their actions and negate the information they gathered against ACORN?

David

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
 
Old 09-28-2009, 11:58 AM   #65
C. David Henderson
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Re: Acorn

No, it doesn't, and it struck me as a really dumb response for ACORN, especially since, as I understand it, they already canned the two employees who were punked. BTW, as the makers of the videos are private citizens, it's likely that any violation of law would not prohibit the use of the video as evidence in a court, unless the state statute specifically says otherwise (which I doubt).

I read today that ACORN lost its association with Bank of America; guess they need to start shilling for new sponsors along side Lou Dobbs and Glenn Beck. This video has obviously hurt them badly; whether the organization can or will reform itself remains to be seen.

Last edited by C. David Henderson : 09-28-2009 at 12:02 PM.
 
Old 09-30-2009, 06:35 AM   #66
MM
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Re: Acorn

ACORN May Face Trial for First Time as Nevada Prosecutors Allege 'Widespread' Criminal Policies

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...est=latestnews

Quote:
Until now, prosecutions for voter registration fraud have focused on ACORN workers, and authorities have secured guilty pleas from several who admitted to falsifying voter registration forms.

But when investigators from Nevada Secretary of State Ross Miller's office raided the ACORN Las Vegas office, Ross says they found a paper trail that implicated the ACORN organization itself.
 
Old 11-23-2009, 03:55 PM   #67
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Re: Acorn

It's OK if corrupt behavior can be reconciled with "well they did some good for the side I believe in"?

http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/23/...-dump-scandal/
 
Old 11-24-2009, 07:46 AM   #68
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Re: Acorn

And the pointless twaddle continues.
 
Old 11-24-2009, 08:23 AM   #69
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Re: Acorn

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
And the pointless twaddle continues.
Have you read what happened? Pointless? These people dumped sensitive info into a public trash bin.

Are you saying it's pointless twaddle to dump people's social security numbers, tax returns, bank numbers into a public dumpster where anyone can take them?

Or pointless twaddle that Acorn committed another crime here?

Or pointless twaddle that Acorn could be sued by all those people who had information illegally dumped into a public trash bin?

Or pointless twaddle that "The group is now under investigation by a number of city, state and federal agencies, and Congress has cut off funding for the group"?

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_frien...576466,00.html

Quote:
After ACORN staff left for the day, he says, he searched the trash bin and discovered more than 20,000 documents he believes point to illicit relationships between ACORN and a bank and a labor union as well as confidential information that could put thousands at risk for identity theft.

"We're talking people's driver's license numbers, dates of birth, Social Security numbers, credit card numbers, bank account numbers, tax returns, credit reports" all tossed in public view in the Dumpster, he said.

In one document shared with FoxNews.com, an ACORN employee's name, address, date of birth, Social Security number and driver's license number were revealed, and photocopies of the employee's license and Social Security card were also included. Another document showed bank account information for a woman paying an ACORN membership fee by check.

"It was just a careless disregard for the people that ACORN claimed to be helping," Roach told FoxNews.com. "They put these people at risk."
 
Old 11-24-2009, 08:39 AM   #70
Mike Sigman
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Re: Acorn

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Are you saying it's pointless twaddle to dump people's social security numbers, tax returns, bank numbers into a public dumpster where anyone can take them?
If Bush had done it, there would be howls to lynch him by the same people who say "Nothing here, folks... move along" about ACORN. Highlighting the hypocrisy is part of the fun.

M
 
Old 11-24-2009, 09:52 AM   #71
lbb
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Re: Acorn

This is absolutely pointless. Time for some people to go on ignore.

Last edited by lbb : 11-24-2009 at 09:54 AM.
 
Old 11-24-2009, 10:08 AM   #72
Stormcrow34
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Re: Acorn

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Have you read what happened? Pointless? These people dumped sensitive info into a public trash bin.

Are you saying it's pointless twaddle to dump people's social security numbers, tax returns, bank numbers into a public dumpster where anyone can take them?

Or pointless twaddle that Acorn committed another crime here?

Or pointless twaddle that Acorn could be sued by all those people who had information illegally dumped into a public trash bin?

Or pointless twaddle that "The group is now under investigation by a number of city, state and federal agencies, and Congress has cut off funding for the group"?

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_frien...576466,00.html
That's exactly what I was thinking. I don't really understand how anyone (on either side of the fence) can argue that this is not a huge story.

I'm not sure which is more disturbing; a government funded organization that appears to have no end to its corruption, or the fact that many people don't seem to care. I don't know what else to say, except there is something seriously wrong with the world when ideology takes precedence over integrity and humanity.

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 11-24-2009 at 10:19 AM.
 
Old 11-24-2009, 12:08 PM   #73
James Davis
 
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Re: Acorn

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Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
That's exactly what I was thinking. I don't really understand how anyone (on either side of the fence) can argue that this is not a huge story.

I'm not sure which is more disturbing; a government funded organization that appears to have no end to its corruption, or the fact that many people don't seem to care. I don't know what else to say, except there is something seriously wrong with the world when ideology takes precedence over integrity and humanity.
Agreed!

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
 
Old 11-24-2009, 12:22 PM   #74
Aikibu
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Re: Acorn

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
And the pointless twaddle continues.
You forgot to insert the word "partisan" between pointless and twaddle Mary... LOL

Thomas Frank's book,,,"The Wrecking Crew" has a pretty good take on Republican Efforts to destroy any attempts at getting the poor and disenfranchised to vote... including trying to discredit organizations like ACORN...

To suggest there is some vast conspiracy at work has been a Republican staple since Nixon got caught at Watergate

Debating the issues here with some folks is like talking to a dead fish...Nothing will ever come of it, and after a few days both you and the fish stink.

William Hazen
 
Old 11-24-2009, 01:06 PM   #75
Mike Sigman
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Re: Acorn

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
You forgot to insert the word "partisan" between pointless and twaddle Mary... LOL

Thomas Frank's book,,,"The Wrecking Crew" has a pretty good take on Republican Efforts to destroy any attempts at getting the poor and disenfranchised to vote... including trying to discredit organizations like ACORN...

To suggest there is some vast conspiracy at work has been a Republican staple since Nixon got caught at Watergate

Debating the issues here with some folks is like talking to a dead fish...Nothing will ever come of it, and after a few days both you and the fish stink.

William Hazen
Whoops.... you forgot to write "Namaste" at the bottom of all those nasty partisan insinuations that, once again, don't seem to want to admit that ACORN did anything wrong. Tsk. If you want to start a thread on conspiracies, let's take a look at the current debacle on the global-warming guys who have conpirstorially been rigging the data, peer review literature, etc., for years and just got caught for sure (people have known for years they were rigging the data but couldn't prove it; they can now). Of course, like ACORN these AGW guys were doing it for all the right reasons (that's how they justified it among themselves) so a little crookedness doesn't matter and anyone who points out the illegal acts is someone to be attacked, right? Like in the above post?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike
 

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