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Old 09-09-2009, 01:25 PM   #1
ninjaqutie
 
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Disgust Right Wrist/Shoulder question

So, my right wrist has been nagging me for a couple of weeks now. Sadly, it doesn't seem to be getting better. I have discovered through stretching it that sankyo seems to be the key to some pain. I know I have done sankyo in class, but I do not recall a moment where I said "OUCH! That is gonna hurt for a bit.."

As for the right shoulder, it is just plain achey and not as flexible as it was a few weeks ago. It doesn't really bother me in aikido (other then tapping out sooner then I used to), but it does wake me up in the middle of the night quite often. At first I thought I was sleeping on it wrong, but it was happening every night and I would wake up on my back, not on my side.

Anywho, other then the regular aikido stretches, do you all recommend anything else? I have found that warm showers seem to help both and I have also discovered that sleeping with my right arm/shoulder under the covers at night has seemed to help. I haven't been waking up as often as I would since I began doing this.

I am not looking for any medical opinions here (though feel free to give them if it so pleases you). I am just looking at some other options or things you all have tried in the past.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 09-09-2009, 02:36 PM   #2
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

I think you might just need to give it some time. I can remember when I start Aikido I had similiar issues. I had the tweaked elbow syndrome for a while in BJJ as well.

What I think happens is we just over do it when we are learning for a while. In BJJ I used to fight until my arm was fully extended before I'd tap, or I really did not know how to protect myself from over extension/flexion. So I worked against myself.

try taking it easy and tap out sooner or move in a way that allows you to take good ukemi. No shame it that.

I still get tweaked everynow and then, it is a part of training, but I don't seem to have the constant pain that I used to have.

Also as Nage, I try and do my best to protect my uke's too.

Usually beginner on beginner is where we have the issue.

I hate teaching beginners in army combatives, that is where I get injured the most these days. Guys that are hell bent on doing whatever at their own expense or mine...you get some wild stuff going on.

It keeps you honest for sure, but hurts like hell.

Take it esay, rest, ice, Ibuprofen etc.

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Old 09-09-2009, 03:00 PM   #3
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Anti-inflammatory such as Voltaren might be a cheap solution, a visit to an osteopath an expensive one.

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Old 09-09-2009, 03:27 PM   #4
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Reexamine your ukemi.

It seems like it shouldn't be a problem, but it is something often overlooked. We usually see our joints being twisted and assume that is where our aches and pains always come from.

You may feel it in the joint lock, but it may be your ukemi aggravating it.

After doing Aikido a few years I had seen a few approaches to rolling. I usually ended up going back to my classic roll. My instructor bought Ellis Amdur's Ukemi From the Ground Up DVD, and decided to show me yet another way.

I tried it, and it was a little different, but I wasn't sure I would keep doing it that way. Except for a side effect I hadn't expected. I was noticing a subtle pain in my shoulder. I assumed it was from ikkyo and sankyo work that was twisting my shoulder over time, or maybe a bad mattress. After I changed my roll the pain stopped.

You don't have to run and get Amdur's DVD (although, it is pretty good), but at least look at how your weight is loading on your arm when you are coming down to the mat. My classic roll usually has me putting my hand in front by my lead foot, which extends your shoulder away from your body and you load your weight on that arm as you come forward. If you drop your arm more in front of your center and turn your head back (still tucked in) as you roll forward you never load your weight on your arm and you actually roll past the shoulder joint.

It is probably safer to find someone who has at least seen the DVD to explain it.
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:32 PM   #5
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
So, my right wrist has been nagging me for a couple of weeks now. Sadly, it doesn't seem to be getting better. I have discovered through stretching it that sankyo seems to be the key to some pain. I know I have done sankyo in class, but I do not recall a moment where I said "OUCH! That is gonna hurt for a bit.."

As for the right shoulder, it is just plain achey and not as flexible as it was a few weeks ago. It doesn't really bother me in aikido (other then tapping out sooner then I used to), but it does wake me up in the middle of the night quite often. At first I thought I was sleeping on it wrong, but it was happening every night and I would wake up on my back, not on my side.

Anywho, other then the regular aikido stretches, do you all recommend anything else? I have found that warm showers seem to help both and I have also discovered that sleeping with my right arm/shoulder under the covers at night has seemed to help. I haven't been waking up as often as I would since I began doing this.

I am not looking for any medical opinions here (though feel free to give them if it so pleases you). I am just looking at some other options or things you all have tried in the past.
If you are over mid-thirties or so, I had the same problem with the shoulder, that kept on bothering me for over six months or so. I did some research and found that Ibuprofen is bonzo anti-inflammatory for muscles and relatively mobile tissues, but actually seems to slow healing for structural tissues like ligaments tendons and cartilage.

As you get close to forty your body stops making much of the precursors to new cartilage (which glucosamine is a supplement for_) The reason -- your epiphyses stop growing and forming the new cartilage that becomes end-bone, so there is much less need of it - but consequenlty far less availabel for repairs also. I stopped the ibuprofen, and started glucosamine for about six months. It helped immensely, and I have not been troubled for several months now and have stopped the glucosamine. At the first sign of a joint twinge however, I am going back on for a month or two. It is simply a nutrient supplement, so it is reasonably safe (though sodium heavy), though it is shellfish derived so may be allergenic, I am not sure. I love shrimp.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-09-2009, 03:36 PM   #6
Janet Rosen
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Whatever you do - give it time to heal and DON"T mask the pain with anti-inflammatories in order to keep training. Right now you have a couple of acute, probably fairly minor, soft tissue injuries. If you continue to use them you will create lots of microtears and continue to essentially rip out any of the healing cells and eventually weeks will turn to months and you will realize you have a chronic injury.
Try to figure out what caused it. If you have the $$ and interest, definitely see a sports medicine person, osteopath, physical therapy person or really good body worker (not someone just certified in Swedish massage or shiatsu, but somebody with credentials in some kind of trigger point or realignment art).
But at the very least, give the affected parts some weeks of rest in order to heal.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-09-2009, 05:00 PM   #7
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

I am not really interested in taking pain pills. I had to take pills for quite a few years due to my severe allergies and I don't take anything unless absolutely nothing else is working (I cave with migraines eventually..... HAH!)

I do not believe my rolls are an issue. Though I am new to aikido, I have been doing martial arts since 99 and rolls were a major part of my previous style. Unfortunately, I don't have the money to go to see someone at the moment (though I had previously been hoping to see a sports therapist).

Thanks for the advice everyone. I will definately be keeping an eye on it, taking it easy and I may begin to wrap it before class.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:42 PM   #8
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Well, I had planned on taking a closer look at my ukemi tonight, but nothing other then backwards ukemi was required tonight. I will keep you all informed.

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~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:49 AM   #9
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
I am not really interested in taking pain pills.
Anti-inflammatories aren't "pain pills". The difference is important in dealing with injuries.

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
I do not believe my rolls are an issue.
Well, if you don't believe it, you don't believe it -- but I'd second Jason's suggestion to reexamine your ukemi. Your rolls may not be an obvious issue, but that's to be expected -- this isn't an injury with an obvious mechanism -- it's something more subtle. It's something that you're currently overlooking, either in aikido or in your daily activities. Unless your daily activities have changed lately, ukemi seems a good place to start looking.
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Old 09-10-2009, 10:12 AM   #10
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Anti-inflammatories aren't "pain pills". The difference is important in dealing with injuries.
I'm sorry that I was so generic. I assumed people would get what I was talking about (but you know what they say...), but for the sake of being correct, I do not want to take any NSAIDs at this time. I won't get into why I don't take pills over minor things because I don't want this to turn into a pharmaceutical conversation/debate.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Well, if you don't believe it, you don't believe it -- but I'd second Jason's suggestion to reexamine your ukemi. Your rolls may not be an obvious issue, but that's to be expected -- this isn't an injury with an obvious mechanism -- it's something more subtle.
As mentioned before, I do not believe that it is my rolls, however I am not saying that it isn't. It is a possible v. probable issue. When I have the opportunity to do forward ukemi in class, I will take a look at my technique and if there are fewer students, perhaps I will ask sensei to watch. It could be something hidden and minor that I am doing, or it could be something as simple as my wrist got tweaked from sankyo (hence it hurting when I apply sankyo to myself).

Tonight is a biggener night, so I am pretty sure we will do forward rolls at some point. I will take what you guys said into consideration and examine how I am going about my rolls.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 09-10-2009, 10:22 AM   #11
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
I'm sorry that I was so generic. I assumed people would get what I was talking about (but you know what they say...), but for the sake of being correct, I do not want to take any NSAIDs at this time. I won't get into why I don't take pills over minor things because I don't want this to turn into a pharmaceutical conversation/debate.
No need for that, but there are anti-inflammatories that aren't NSAIDs. You might take a look at turmeric -- it's worked well for me.
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Old 09-10-2009, 11:22 AM   #12
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
No need for that, but there are anti-inflammatories that aren't NSAIDs. You might take a look at turmeric -- it's worked well for me.
Because of a post by Mary I use powdered ginger in my drinking water to reduce and keep swelling down in my knees.

David
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:24 PM   #13
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
No need for that, but there are anti-inflammatories that aren't NSAIDs. You might take a look at turmeric -- it's worked well for me.
Is this something I can easily find at a nutrition store Mary?

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 09-10-2009, 02:13 PM   #14
Janet Rosen
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Turmeric is a common spice - it is the powdered root of turmeric, a ginger like plant and the source of curry powder's yellow color. And a potent antiinflammatory.

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Old 09-10-2009, 03:05 PM   #15
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

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Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
Is this something I can easily find at a nutrition store Mary?
Maybe -- I'm not sure how popular it is. It's a culinary spice (among other things), like Janet said, and you can buy it as a bulk spice, people do take it that way (mixed with honey I'm told). More conveniently, it's available in tablet and capsule form, and may be sold as circumin (the active ingredient). You can get it at a Whole Foods or other natural food stores that have supplements. I use both turmeric and ginger (also a potent anti-inflammatory) to help manage my rheumatoid arthritis, and I also use them anytime I tweak something, simply because you can just take a ton of it. Both do have a blood-thinning effect, and some people say that if they take a lot, they feel flushed afterwards...but apart from that, I believe they have no side effects.

(or you could just eat a lot of Indian food...never a bad idea IMO)
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Old 09-10-2009, 04:42 PM   #16
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Mmmmhh.... indian food! I agree with you there. I will have to look into that. I don't mind taking natural supplements. It is the whole OTC thing along with other pills that I have an issue with. Thanks for letting me know about those two options. Would ginger tea have enough in it to make a difference?

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
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Old 09-10-2009, 10:02 PM   #17
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Gah... no forward rolls tonight! We did work on sankyo tonight though and my right wrist was a bit tender. In the meantime, perhaps I will begin to look for those spices.

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Old 09-10-2009, 10:02 PM   #18
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Ashley for any "tea" (infusion or decoction) of an herb to have any effect it needs to be steeped for at least 10 minutes. Personally, I find ginger tea way too strong to enjoy after 10 minutes.
Our local food coop sometimes has fresh turmeric next to the fresh ginger, which is a real treat. The powder is sold anywhere herbs and spices are sold.... and actually I'm still more concerned that you let this thing heal by resting it.

Janet Rosen
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Old 09-13-2009, 04:47 PM   #19
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
Mmmmhh.... indian food! I agree with you there. I will have to look into that. I don't mind taking natural supplements. It is the whole OTC thing along with other pills that I have an issue with. Thanks for letting me know about those two options. Would ginger tea have enough in it to make a difference?
Be a little careful with equating "natural" with "good for you". Arsenic is natural, too; so's ephedra, so's blue-ringed octopus venom. There are plenty of toxic natural substances, and for those with a beneficial effect, anything you take in a therapeutic dose is almost certainly going to have some side effects.

I don't know about ginger tea, I just use it in capsule form, which is pretty concentrated. I have a friend who uses ginger and turmeric to deal with colitis -- he used to do capsules but now he mixes powdered ginger and turmeric in hot water and slugs it down once a day. That's not the same thing as ginger tea though.

Edit: ...and, yeah, what Janet said. Ginger and turmeric are highly effective anti-inflammatories; they're not magic bullets. My experience in healing injuries has taught me that you almost always need to use more than one healing adjunct. Anti-inflammatories taken internally are just one -- there's also external topical preparations (to improve circulation, to speed healing), ice to reduce inflammation, support through taping or bracing, modification of body mechanics, physical therapies, surgical intervention, and yes, REST. My most successful healing has always been when I used several of these modes, all the while keeping my attention OFF the calendar ("when can I start training again? when, huh? when?") and ON what was going on with my body,. so I could adjust my program as needed. Rest was always part of the program.

Last edited by lbb : 09-13-2009 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 09-13-2009, 05:15 PM   #20
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

I believe the curcuminoids in turmeric are fat-soluble rather than water-soluble, so the indian food would probably be more beneficial (and pleasant) than the turmeric tea...

I am not an expert
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Old 09-13-2009, 09:11 PM   #21
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Re: Right Wrist/Shoulder question

Injuries suck. HAHA.

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