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Old 09-10-2009, 11:07 AM   #151
Abasan
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Ahmad wrote:

I have been with the dim mak guys and have been told that I am not receptive which is why their stuff doesn't work on me. Apparently I am spiritually bankrupt and I block with negative ki and it will cause me long term health problems if I don't learn to release.

I identified this handicap about 10 years ago and I still struggle with it so I can understand why I might not be the best uke for someone that can use spiritual ki.
Ha Ha You crack me up! I wonder what kind of release they meant?

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 09-10-2009, 11:21 AM   #152
mjhacker
 
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I identified this handicap about 10 years ago and I still struggle with it so I can understand why I might not be the best uke for someone that can use spiritual ki.
One of my seniors in Japan (a 5th dan whom I'd describe as a "slab of beef") went to Tokyo to feel the 'ki' of Nishino Kozo [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GmXEYGqfIU].

When Nishino waved his hands without effect, my friend was scolded and told that he needed to train more in order to become sensitive to Nishino's energy.

What I don't understand is why anyone would want to practice any sort of martial art, the efficacy of which is based on the attacker's 'sensitivity.'

I find this to be sadly common when an art is nage/tori-centric.

Michael Hacker
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http://renshindojo.com/

自由心流合気武道 - 鍛心館
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Old 09-10-2009, 11:41 AM   #153
Mike Sigman
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Mike, nothing I say is going to make you believe otherwise because you've already versed in a particular form of Internal strength methodology.
What "particular form" are you talking about, though? The idea of ki/qi and its relationships is that it was a "theory to explain everything" and covered all situations... there are not "different kinds of ki/qi". Besides, one of the other things that I'm grounded in is the physical sciences and there must always be a relationship between a physical effect and a physical cause. If an Uke is "lifted on his toes from 3 feet away", I assure you we can explore that physical phenomenon and find out where the energy came from. So when it comes to the last Uke in line dancing around in synchronization with Nage's movements and gestures, we can certainly make some high-probability guesses.
Quote:
Who's to say that there's only 1 correct way for anything.
No one did. That'd be a Strawman.
Quote:
For one thing, just take a look at the Systema guys.
Pass. They're not related to this discussion.
Quote:
Same thing here Mike. Sensei Hakim does his thingey and its nothing at all like CMA where we're mostly talking about you you and you and less about the guy attacking you. Here, the energy is less about him and more about the people attacking him. Mike, I don't know what type of force Sensei was using for the last uke to act like he did. All I know is that he practices 7 characters of Aiki. That demo wasn't an emphasis on chushin (at least I don't think so) or musubi so it must be one of the 7. It's definitely not ateru, invite, dissolve, absorb, pulling or enveloping. So by elimination, I would say its entering ki.
And my guess that it is called "psychological power", a mysterious energy that pervades the ether between many teachers and their students. I used to spend time asking people to use those kinds of exotic powers against me, but they never seemed to work. I think I mentioned once before that some people refused to use their powers on me because their ki was so strong that it might kill me. So I'd come back later with a goldfish in a bowl and ask them to kill the goldfish. Never lost a goldfish, but I have found that it's easy to get people who want to be special to hate you.

If there is a physically demonstrable effect, it can be explained by physics, Ahmad.

Best.

Mike
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:30 PM   #154
Marc Abrams
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Mike, nothing I say is going to make you believe otherwise because you've already versed in a particular form of Internal strength methodology. Who's to say that there's only 1 correct way for anything. For one thing, just take a look at the Systema guys. They won't be caught dead calling the stuff they do Internal Skills, but they do emphasise Beyond the Physical. Grounding? Nope, nothing in there but again you'll find it hard to put Vlad or Michael down on the ground. They don't practice CMA or Japanese Arts and so they're art doesn't look like what you're agreeable to. Doesn't mean that what they're doing doesn't work.

Same thing here Mike. Sensei Hakim does his thingey and its nothing at all like CMA where we're mostly talking about you you and you and less about the guy attacking you. Here, the energy is less about him and more about the people attacking him. Mike, I don't know what type of force Sensei was using for the last uke to act like he did. All I know is that he practices 7 characters of Aiki. That demo wasn't an emphasis on chushin (at least I don't think so) or musubi so it must be one of the 7. It's definitely not ateru, invite, dissolve, absorb, pulling or enveloping. So by elimination, I would say its entering ki.

Anyway at the risk of taking this further into a 'I say, you say' loop, here's another link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyZCl...eature=related showing a Silat guy from Semarang who wanted to feel this 'Aiki' thingey. Its his first time meeting sensei and I believe he was just asked to grab the hands and try not to fall. Towards the end you will see him trying to grab the hands and falling short... emm yeah I know its funny and looks fake, but it isn't. This link is not meant to 'cover' whatever deficiencies you see in the earlier links, its just to show that his Aiki works on non compliant ukes and we all know the staple of most 'ki' demos require a 'knowledgeable and agreeable' fellow.

Michael, I'm not trying to judge you. I was making a fairly straight forward statement. There's physical connectivity and there's spiritual connectivity. You can use your eyes for the former and it might be difficult for the latter. Since we are all big kids here and talking about Aiki and Ki isn't raising anyone's eyebrows, lets for a moment imagine that there is an element of ki that doesn't require physical transmission? So... yes it is true we need to have form in the beginning. Later maybe less so.

Anyway, that's the last I'll make out of this post. I'm not out to prove anything, I just have to tell it how it is that's all because we share what we know here and I know what he's capable of.

I appreciate you guys being candid but now that I've made my stand clear, what you guys think is really up to you. All this is my opinion only and my very limited knowledge and understanding. I know you guys have a lot of years behind you and I'll be the first to put up my hand to learn from you. But it won't be right if I don't at least try to clear the air.
Ahmad:

While we are in the islands, maybe this clip should add some entertainment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psInHMucSx8

I am with Kevin of on this one. I guess I just have an evil spirit as well. I would NEVER respond like the uke's do in Ahmad's video clips. At best, it teaches bad ukemi.

Marc Abrams
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:41 PM   #155
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Oh My God....
Marc, that HAS to be a classic...
Best,
Ron (ow, that hurt...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:46 PM   #156
Keith Larman
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Ahmad:

While we are in the islands, maybe this clip should add some entertainment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psInHMucSx8

I am with Kevin of on this one. I guess I just have an evil spirit as well. I would NEVER respond like the uke's do in Ahmad's video clips. At best, it teaches bad ukemi.

Marc Abrams
Ooooh, send me in, coach...

Now where's that link to that Ryuken fella finding out that the jujutsu guy wasn't receptive to his hand wavy ki stuff...

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Old 09-10-2009, 12:49 PM   #157
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
... have been told that I am not receptive which is why their stuff doesn't work on me. Apparently I am spiritually bankrupt and I block with negative ki and it will cause me long term health problems if I don't learn to release.
Ah, heck, Kevin, the Universal Ki must balance, and so with that ocean of positive "ki" they are floating in -- the negative stuff has to wash up somewhere! -- and I find all sorts of cool stuff thrown up on the beach, myself ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:00 PM   #158
C. David Henderson
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
While we are in the islands, maybe this clip should add some entertainment:

****

Marc Abrams
Reminds me of the Boxer Rebellion and the Ghost Dance -- the martial applications failed somewhat to meet expectations in the field.
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:12 PM   #159
Marc Abrams
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Ron & Keith:

The funniest thing was that this guy was trying to come to the Ushiro Kenji Seminar! I was worried that either Ushiro Sensei would become immobilized from laughing or would display the real thing, thereby requiring the clean-up and disposal of body parts!

Marc Abrams
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:47 PM   #160
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Oh man...this wack job is in the states??? Remember the yellow bamboo guys?

Best,
Ron

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Old 09-10-2009, 01:55 PM   #161
Bob Blackburn
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I have been with the dim mak guys and have been told that I am not receptive which is why their stuff doesn't work on me. Apparently I am spiritually bankrupt and I block with negative ki and it will cause me long term health problems if I don't learn to release.

I identified this handicap about 10 years ago and I still struggle with it so I can understand why I might not be the best uke for someone that can use spiritual ki.
You and me both. Sensei Roy Goldberg calls me the Andriod of Daito.

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Old 09-10-2009, 02:07 PM   #162
Marc Abrams
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Oh man...this wack job is in the states??? Remember the yellow bamboo guys?

Best,
Ron
Ron:

New York City to be exact. Didn't the yellow bamboo martial artists become extinct due to yellow bamboo blight?

Regards,

Marc

ps.- On the clip I provided, I love how they can turn glass into a digestible sugar substance.
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Old 09-10-2009, 02:13 PM   #163
HL1978
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Mike and Michael, you realise though you're making judgements based on videos but not on first hand feel.

Mike you yourself have said before, the only way you can tell is by going at it and not by watching.

So please don't disparage Sensei Hakim until you've met him and 'tried' him out. Granted his students are vocal but you haven't seen all his students.

If you want I'll be pleased to arrange that for you. And if you don't want to waste the trip, we can always coincide it with the yearly trip Kobuta shihan makes to visit him.
Even if you have no understanding of internal skills, why are Uke #2 and #3 popping up on their toes? Seeing that might make someone question what is going on .
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:22 PM   #164
Janet Rosen
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

{after following all those links...I better get off the computer and back to the sewing machine} Oh no, I've entered the Bad Budo Zone - where is my ballpoint pen and rolled up newspaper!

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
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Old 09-10-2009, 06:49 PM   #165
eyrie
 
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Now where's that link to that Ryuken fella finding out that the jujutsu guy wasn't receptive to his hand wavy ki stuff...
Keith... you mean this dude?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

Quote:
Ahmad Abbas wrote:
Mike and Michael, you realise though you're making judgements based on videos but not on first hand feel.
A significant aspect of MA training, is the ability to observe movement, and to develop the keenness of one's visual acuity to discern nuances in movement - where such nuances happen in a split second.

One of the reasons why I watch SYTYCD, even though I am not particularly interested in dancing, is (not just for the hard, young, nubile bodies, or Mary's shrill choo-choos, or Cat's lithe form and numerous wardrobe changes) mainly for the judges' technical critique and the slo-mo replays relating to their technical comments. The ability to discern such nuances, in a blink of an eye, and the ability to critique and analyze movement, is a critical skill for any serious martial artist - especially IF you purport to teach. How else would you critique a student's performance? Or even attempt to correct them? Or would you simply chastise them for "not being sensitive enough"?

I agree with Rob's assessment...
Quote:
Rob John wrote:
1) shoulder usage? check

2) disconnection? check

3) overall lack of whole body "cohesiveness"? check

4) lack of initiation from lower body? check
... you don't need hands-on feel to discern what is sometimes glaringly obvious... IF you know what to look for.

Last edited by eyrie : 09-10-2009 at 06:52 PM.

Ignatius
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:10 PM   #166
Keith Larman
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Keith... you mean this dude?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
Yup, that's the one. Sad... I still wonder what all those epileptic bobble-heads in the first segment felt once they watched their teacher quite simply getting punched out without all the puppet on a string looking reactions. It is really disheartening to see so many can so thoroughly talk themselves into that kind of stuff. But... Sometimes reality has the habit of being delivered via a couple shots to the face.

WRT to the vid of the aiki-age... I can get the first guy getting moved (although he seems over-the-top vocal). But the other guys... Shrug. Seems blatantly absurd to me.

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Old 09-10-2009, 07:28 PM   #167
Walter Martindale
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Yup, that's the one. Sad... I still wonder what all those epileptic bobble-heads in the first segment felt once they watched their teacher quite simply getting punched out without all the puppet on a string looking reactions. It is really disheartening to see so many can so thoroughly talk themselves into that kind of stuff. But... Sometimes reality has the habit of being delivered via a couple shots to the face.

WRT to the vid of the aiki-age... I can get the first guy getting moved (although he seems over-the-top vocal). But the other guys... Shrug. Seems blatantly absurd to me.
And... How can these instructors let themselves get deluded enough with their "powers" to actually think they're teaching something. Myself, I KNOW I'd get crushed in an MMA fight.. Maybe not 30 years ago.. On second thought, Yeah, I'd get crushed.
slightly OT...
When people used to find out I was in judo, they'd ask if I could handle myself in a fight. I usually replied with - I don't know - I've had the crap beaten out of me in judo practice by some pretty small guys - and the thing you learn from that is that in a "situation", you don't know what the other guy knows, so I just think it best to avoid "situations"... At least in part because judo training is training for a rules-based competition, aikido training is usually training for interactions with other aikido people.

Does it translate to the outside world? Don't know. I do know that Kawahara sensei (shihan in Canada) advises most of the people in aikido in Canada to not get into fights because we/they are only training for at best 2 hours/day in slow, non-competitive practice that doesn't make us leak red stuff if we miss, and because most of us started as adults, so most of us have to think instead of 'do'...
We don't live, eat, drink, and sleep aikido from age 5, so it's much harder for aikido to be "part of us"..

Cheers,
Walter

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 09-10-2009 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 09-11-2009, 12:53 AM   #168
Abasan
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

"The ability to discern such nuances, in a blink of an eye, and the ability to critique and analyze movement, is a critical skill for any serious martial artist - especially IF you purport to teach. How else would you critique a student's performance? Or even attempt to correct them? Or would you simply chastise them for "not being sensitive enough"?"

Ignatius, no I won't discount this ability at all. I'm just saying that its part one aspect of how one learns. The other part requires actual participation. Now that's easy to say when the demonstrator is halfway around the world. And with so many kooks out there on youtube, its easy to just lump everyone there into the same mould based on your experience and knowledge. But I can't learn nuts from Mike through the net (maybe some crumbs though)... he has to show me. I need to 'feel' him. (take that the positive way you twits ). Also its a lot like taking a picture. You have a 2D view of something but you lack an overall cohesive picture of the thing.

I don't know if this would give a better perspective of what I mean. You know Mike's initial training for grounding right. He'll have his partners push his forearm and he'll establish a ground path of that force. Anyone looking at a video of that will think hey I can do that. They'll mimic the form and in the end resort to bracing which doesn't really work when the push comes in from all angles. So although it looked the same but it isn't the same. You can't see fascia at work with the eyes either, although you may see some of the signs/results.

Marc that vid is even funnier than Keiths... I think he might have copied some moves from this guy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atwXXEZhIhc

"WRT to the vid of the aiki-age... I can get the first guy getting moved (although he seems over-the-top vocal). But the other guys... Shrug. Seems blatantly absurd to me." Keith, yeah. I hate this guys shouting out like pansies. You would expect someone with some years of experience to not go on like that. I mostly never make the sounds either, but just so happen the other day I was training with another student and he hit my fist with an ateru (when I wasn't really prepared for it - yeah the same ol excuses) and I gritted my teeth and braced instead of going with it; suffered a very very painful stomach muscle cramp for my valiant effort. Very enlightening. In the spirit of sharing, I'm now training hard to return the favour. :P

This is the problem with words... Like I said, I'm done explaining Sensei's clip notwithstanding it was his overeager student that posted the damn thing. Now I just have to make sure whatever I wrote was understood in the spirit it was made.

Anyway since we're putting out all stops with Youtube references here, here's a couple of clips of Sensei Hino Aikira showing some little things. In the first clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND_GN0bUaPw at 1.15 I just love how this man translates the feeling of absolute powerlessness complete with the pee in the pants skit :P. You think you're in control and suddenly you're not. Its very disconcerting. Feeling this during training really opens your eyes. Especially when nage isn't using a sword to demonstrate the point.

In the 2nd clip, he showed entering/explosive aiki in the beginning. Maybe its easier to grasp the meaning when seeing this done in a dynamic fashion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiWU_K0-Nlg&NR=1 He demonstrates that punching it normally, the person holding the bag will feel the impact. Punching it the 2nd time around, the person holding the bag doesn't feel the impact stopping on him rather its passed through to the fella behind...

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 09-11-2009, 02:23 AM   #169
Upyu
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Anyway since we're putting out all stops with Youtube references here, here's a couple of clips of Sensei Hino Aikira showing some little things. In the first clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND_GN0bUaPw at 1.15 I just love how this man translates the feeling of absolute powerlessness complete with the pee in the pants skit :P. You think you're in control and suddenly you're not. Its very disconcerting. Feeling this during training really opens your eyes. Especially when nage isn't using a sword to demonstrate the point.
I could show you in two minutes how he does all of those tricks.
In fact for some of them you don't even need special "conditioning."

While you can't see the fascia move, it's evident as to whether someone's body is "bound" together in an unusual fashion when they move...which looks to be lacking in the person posted earlier.

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
In the 2nd clip, he showed entering/explosive aiki in the beginning. Maybe its easier to grasp the meaning when seeing this done in a dynamic fashion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiWU_K0-Nlg&NR=1 He demonstrates that punching it normally, the person holding the bag will feel the impact. Punching it the 2nd time around, the person holding the bag doesn't feel the impact stopping on him rather its passed through to the fella behind...
The Hino clip is a bit better and just shows that he knows how to use some basic Jin tricks. Striking is easy to demonstrate...and while its understandable that you're trying to equate that to the locking demo....it doesn't quite work that way. While it's possible to "Grab" the guy at the other end and affect his balance, it certainly doesn't happen in the spectacular fashion shown in the video.
Actually if it were, I'm sure there would be pictures of Sagawa doing it as well...but all demos involve multiple people directly grabbing him at multiple points on his body. Jin/Aiki etc is great, but physics is still at work.

But seriously, posting Hino? You need to get out more
I'm praying that you don't put up Kono

It's cool that you're gung ho about all this but I think you just need to get out more.
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:24 AM   #170
Abasan
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

Kono? Feed me...

Hino looks like a fun guy. All things considered I love training in joyous spirit... must be all the fake aiki in the air.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 09-12-2009, 01:53 PM   #171
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Re: Inefficiencies in the Aikido Training Method

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Oh My God....
Marc, that HAS to be a classic...
Best,
Ron (ow, that hurt...)
What was it PT Barnum said? "Some of the people, all of the time?"

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