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Old 02-05-2009, 07:00 AM   #1
Shizentota
 
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No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Hi, I am a member from AKI.

I want to know why so many people have a bad reaction about the work that Yoshinobu Takeda Shihan sometimes showed.

They say that Ukes fakes their ukemis, that they are predispose to fall, and other stuff.

So please, anwser, post and feel free to understand and share things, please try to be polite in your comments...
Thanks

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Old 02-05-2009, 07:57 AM   #2
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Quote:
Manuel Aldunate wrote: View Post
Hi, I am a member from AKI.

I want to know why so many people have a bad reaction about the work that Yoshinobu Takeda Shihan sometimes showed.

They say that Ukes fakes their ukemis, that they are predispose to fall, and other stuff.

So please, anwser, post and feel free to understand and share things, please try to be polite in your comments...
Thanks

What do you think? Whats your gut feeling on it? No way of knowing unless you have been thrown by him? I've tried out a few of these type of so called sensei who could throw their ukes and assistants with this no touch stuff, all very strange how they could throw them..... but couldn't throw me??
Maybe these uki just deluded themselves into being thrown? In respect to their sensei they just throw themselves?
Its been known to happen....!!!

So I remain healthily sceptical and rational and do not allude to this kind of thing....

Tony
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Old 02-05-2009, 08:12 AM   #3
sorokod
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

I am sure that this kind of practice develops a wonderful ukemi:

Quote:
What follows next is known as atogeiko (after practice) and is a time for students to approach their sensei (teacher) and senpai (senior students) for ukemi. The average student will receive anywhere from 20 to 100 throws at a time, depending on their ability. This practice, while physically demanding, is invaluable for their progress as it develops suppleness, sensitivity and inner weight. Once fatigued, they are no longer able to resist their partner's movement and thus, begin to move naturally and freely with no concept of mind, in accordance with Aikido principles.
from an AKI website: http://www.aikidosydneycity.com/aikidokenkyukai.html

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Old 02-05-2009, 08:29 AM   #4
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

I have been thrown by him, and also try to do the same, (sometimes sensei make groups of people an let us experiment on that)

I can say, that for this kind of work UKE has to be very very very sensitive, I you stand there with a felling of "I am the great UKe nobody can moove me" of course nobody will moove you.

Instead of that, when you open your heart body and mind you start to feel the ki that is been proyecting over you.

When Sensei teach us this, you make groups of 5 up to 10 people, then one stand in front and try to moove the others, rather than moove is better to say "gather" .

I can say that if you are in front of the line you can feel the ki coming to you, but when you are at the end of the row yo just feell your partners moove so you moove too.

But I see this as a reaction of the ki that was extended over us.

Like a car crash in a highway, You may no be the first one that crashed, but one car crash other and after several crashes it gets to you.

So you can say that the origin of this reaction is the first crash.
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Old 02-05-2009, 08:59 AM   #5
grondahl
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Whats the point of the exercise if just maintaining an immovable mind negates the possibility of success?

Or is the point of the exercise to not be moved?
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Old 02-05-2009, 09:42 AM   #6
Ron Tisdale
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

I've never trained with Takeda Sensei, so I have no idea what his uke do or don't do, or how it feels to be thrown by him.

I have, however, felt one of his 6th dan students, a Kirisawa Sensei. I have trained with him a bit when he is in the PA area from time to time, and so have some of my friends trained in Shotokan karate.

We have never had to "jump" or "tank" for him.

Best,
Ron

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Old 02-05-2009, 09:51 AM   #7
mathewjgano
 
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Quote:
Manuel Aldunate wrote: View Post
Hi, I am a member from AKI.

I want to know why so many people have a bad reaction about the work that Yoshinobu Takeda Shihan sometimes showed.

They say that Ukes fakes their ukemis, that they are predispose to fall, and other stuff.

So please, anwser, post and feel free to understand and share things, please try to be polite in your comments...
Thanks

I'm not familiar with Takeda Shihan, but from what I can see, people generally dislike no-touch exercises because they don't think it works on physical ability...like rowing a boat without a paddle.
I think when you imagine a blade or stick in the hands of nage, no-touch makes more sense. I think it also seems like a good supplementary exercise for developing ukemi.

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Old 02-05-2009, 10:03 AM   #8
ChrisMoses
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Quote:
Manuel Aldunate wrote: View Post
I can say, that for this kind of work UKE has to be very very very sensitive, I you stand there with a felling of "I am the great UKe nobody can moove me" of course nobody will moove you.

Instead of that, when you open your heart body and mind you start to feel the ki that is been proyecting over you.

When Sensei teach us this, you make groups of 5 up to 10 people, then one stand in front and try to moove the others, rather than moove is better to say "gather" .

I can say that if you are in front of the line you can feel the ki coming to you, but when you are at the end of the row yo just feell your partners moove so you moove too.

But I see this as a reaction of the ki that was extended over us.
As I've mentioned in other threads, I have been thrown by Takeda Sensei and trained with him on several occasions including at his home dojo. I simply don't buy this kind of demonstration or exercise. I believe it encourages students to buy into a groupthink mentality. Get a group of six students from other lineages, line them up with earplugs and blindfolds and then I might consider something is actually going on. Until then, this is delusion.

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Old 02-05-2009, 10:49 AM   #9
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I believe it encourages students to buy into a groupthink mentality. Get a group of six students from other lineages, line them up with earplugs and blindfolds and then I might consider something is actually going on. Until then, this is delusion.
Would you say the delusion is the idea that uke somehow isn't cooperating? If so, what if the practice is done with the firm knowledge (by everyone involved) that uke can simply not respond?
I understand why this topic gets the bad press that it does after watching a lot of Youtube videos, not the least of which is the famous "MMA vs Kiai master," http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
but I don't see why all no-touch practice equates to delusion...assuming that's even what you're saying here.

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Old 02-05-2009, 11:28 AM   #10
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

I have not trained with this group, but I have been to a seminar or two with no-touch type stuff. There definitely was a "the emperor has no clothes" aspect to it. People walking up to grab nage, say on the lapels. Nage shifts his menacing gaze at you, steering uke off course. The "best" ukes---you know, the "most sensitive"---are off-balanced and roll away.

Huh?

Perhaps I'm a primitive aiki-Neanderthal, but the only pressure I felt as a visitor was whether or not I would be the fellow to just walk up and grab him.

Now, this is distinct from other "no-touch throws" I've experienced, such as the "Holy shit! There's a fist coming at my face!!" variant of some kokyunages as well as the "WTF?! He was just here a second ago!"-type of kokyunages handling those seriously committed off-balanced attacks. It's also different from the in-bred group type throws which look magical, but really, all of those ukes remember the bloody nose they got when they didn't move just so.

Who knows?

I'm all for realizing that the encounter has started before actual contact, and even that there's associated energy in the intent. I can see that we were practicing something akin to "admitting no opening," forcing uke to re-evaluate his approach. A big loopy forward roll off to the side though? Nah.

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Old 02-05-2009, 11:35 AM   #11
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I've never trained with Takeda Sensei, so I have no idea what his uke do or don't do, or how it feels to be thrown by him.

I have, however, felt one of his 6th dan students, a Kirisawa Sensei. I have trained with him a bit when he is in the PA area from time to time, and so have some of my friends trained in Shotokan karate.

We have never had to "jump" or "tank" for him.

Best,
Ron
So Ron, he was able to throw you from a distance ....hmhmh... lets say .....10 feet?

Nagababa

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Old 02-05-2009, 11:45 AM   #12
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

I'm all for no touch drills. For example we will do a sprawl drill where one person changes levels like they are about to shoot a take down and the other person 2 feet away sprawls.

This is not a no touch take down, this is a drill designed to help teach a good sprawl. It is one of many. The difference is that everyone knows that is what this is from the onset. Even those watching the class. There is no question if it is a mystical force or a practice drill.

It seems to me that it would be fairly easy to clear up. Anyone just ask the guy?

I personally don't buy no touch knock outs or no touch throws. I've had guys try it around me and it has not yet worked. I've even been scolded for not responding. (Things like "you should put your hand up because I would of hit you in the face.". Never mind the fact they were two feet away.)

I believe a faint can have a effect similar to the no touch throw. A good swipe by the face can drive the head back or raise an arm, etc. But I don't buy defeating a real attacker from 3 feet away without touching them. And I won't buy it until it happens to me.

- Don
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:52 AM   #13
grondahl
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Did Kirisawa sensei do stuff like shown in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltf6-Qqc40Y

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I've never trained with Takeda Sensei, so I have no idea what his uke do or don't do, or how it feels to be thrown by him.

I have, however, felt one of his 6th dan students, a Kirisawa Sensei. I have trained with him a bit when he is in the PA area from time to time, and so have some of my friends trained in Shotokan karate.

We have never had to "jump" or "tank" for him.

Best,
Ron
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:58 AM   #14
ChrisMoses
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Would you say the delusion is the idea that uke somehow isn't cooperating? If so, what if the practice is done with the firm knowledge (by everyone involved) that uke can simply not respond?
I understand why this topic gets the bad press that it does after watching a lot of Youtube videos, not the least of which is the famous "MMA vs Kiai master," http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
but I don't see why all no-touch practice equates to delusion...assuming that's even what you're saying here.
I think the OP is referring to some of the comments in this thread.

Check out this clip particularly around the 1:45 mark.

There are real "no-touch" throws out there in my experience. These typically involve timing, physiology and psychology. Don Angier for instance has a concept of "the wall" that can result in a no/minimal touch throw. Standing there and willing a group of people to fall over is not, in my oh so humble opinion, a reasonable example of a no-touch throw. It's groupthink and behavioral conditioning.

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Old 02-05-2009, 12:33 PM   #15
Ron Tisdale
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
So Ron, he was able to throw you from a distance ....hmhmh... lets say .....10 feet?
Nope, but then, he didn't try to!

Best,
Ron

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Old 02-05-2009, 12:57 PM   #16
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Quote:
Manuel Aldunate wrote: View Post
I have been thrown by him, and also try to do the same, (sometimes sensei make groups of people an let us experiment on that)

I can say, that for this kind of work UKE has to be very very very sensitive, I you stand there with a felling of "I am the great UKe nobody can moove me" of course nobody will moove you.

Instead of that, when you open your heart body and mind you start to feel the ki that is been proyecting over you.

When Sensei teach us this, you make groups of 5 up to 10 people, then one stand in front and try to moove the others, rather than moove is better to say "gather" .

I can say that if you are in front of the line you can feel the ki coming to you, but when you are at the end of the row yo just feell your partners moove so you moove too.

But I see this as a reaction of the ki that was extended over us.

Like a car crash in a highway, You may no be the first one that crashed, but one car crash other and after several crashes it gets to you.

So you can say that the origin of this reaction is the first crash.
A good uke doesn't throw himself just to make his sensei look good..... Its B.S. and always will be no matter how much "Ki" is being used!! Just the usual party tricks as far as I'm concerned and as you say you have to be very, very, very sensitive to your sensei's movement..... maybe too sensitive??
I would say that you come into the delusional, over cooperative type of aikidoka......The category that gets aikido its ridicule and critism.....
But, if you are into this type of "aikido" and just want to be part of the collusion then who am I to stop you?
Your choice, your problem when somebody comes along one day and destroys your delusion, which will happen one day if you are lucky!!

Tony
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:17 PM   #17
Shizentota
 
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

In AKI training we put a special attention on UKES work.
I you just stop your attack (Meaning the intention to enter in nage's center) the attack loose its LIFE and TRUE.

It become a struggle, and in this duality their's no aikido.

The attacks are very commitment.

It is a different tipe of trainning, with different purpose.

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Old 02-05-2009, 01:57 PM   #18
Ron Tisdale
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

So what do you do when someone strikes through your center without committing their balance?

And yes, I have met both trained and untrained people who do that.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:58 PM   #19
Marc Abrams
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Watching those clips was watching conditioned attackers who did not attack with any real intent to attack. Their ukemi was self-imposed and collusive in nature.

Teaching sensitivity to energy should be an important aspect of training, but not if it is learning how to take an unrealistic dive. I have genuinely tried to grab Okamoto Sensei (Daitoryu Roppokai) and this 82 year old man with a slight, almost imperceptible move had me on the way down to the ground. I have tried to kick and punch Ushiro Sensei (Shindoryu Ushiro Karate) and having been sensitized to energy knew that I was moving into a world of hurt, but I WOULD NOT take a dive. I have adjusted strike vectors and have done ukemi to avoid further strikes from him to minimize the hurt. Both of these guys have the real stuff. NONE OF IT is the "no touch" collusion that people develop as a unhealthy byproduct of energy sensitivity training.

My students get an earful from me each and every time they attack in an insincere manner, or they take ukemi in an insincere manner. This teaches bad habits that only become realized when it is too late! I spent an awful lot of time focusing in on the fundamentals of energy work in my teaching of Aikido, because when that foundation is there, techniques REALLY WORK!

It is most unfortunate that good emphasis on the energy fundamentals of our art so often times get mixed in with collusion exercises that lead to people getting hurt when a real attacker does not play by the collusion rule book.

Just my 2 cents!

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:52 PM   #20
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Tony Wagstaffe sums this issue up very well for me.

One of my dan grades attended a seminar where a well known British AikiKai Shihan was teaching, my dan grade, unlike the rest did not float around for him as his own students did, the Shihan was angry and accused my student " I cannot use you, as you are not harmonising with me !!!" my student replied " with respect Sensei, I thought you would harmonise with me, as I am nage ? ".

I had lunch with TK Chiba Sensei recently, he spoke of the early days of Aikido, to my surprise he said " Aikido today had become watered down" I replied " I would say it has become vapourised Sensei "...that made him smile.

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Old 02-05-2009, 03:49 PM   #21
Walter Martindale
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

The few shihan I've seen and or felt get quite cranky when uke throws himself or herself without the real need to take ukemi. Essentially, if he hasn't got you (they always do, though), don't fall. One shihan was demonstrating nikkyo (nikkajo) and told uke to not go down to the ground when the technique wasn't "on" yet. Uke kept anticipating the movement to avoid the pain, rather than taking as much as he could and exploring his limits. When the pin came on, there was a considerable amount of exploring limits went on while the uke was tapping, and tapping, and tapping. Nothing broke or got injured, but some limits sure were explored.
Some of the "no touch" ukemi is as others point out - WTF, that fist is coming so I'd best hit the ground. That's ukemi too - protecting the self...
W
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Old 02-05-2009, 05:18 PM   #22
mathewjgano
 
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I think the OP is referring to some of the comments in this thread.

Check out this clip particularly around the 1:45 mark.
Oh ok, i see. I thought he meant more generally speaking. Have you ever heard Takeda sensei offer some kind of explanation? It does look like a great workout for uke.
Quote:
There are real "no-touch" throws out there in my experience. These typically involve timing, physiology and psychology.
That's basically my understanding of it as well.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 02-05-2009 at 05:21 PM.

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Old 02-06-2009, 04:23 AM   #23
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Tony Wagstaffe sums this issue up very well for me.

One of my dan grades attended a seminar where a well known British AikiKai Shihan was teaching, my dan grade, unlike the rest did not float around for him as his own students did, the Shihan was angry and accused my student " I cannot use you, as you are not harmonising with me !!!" my student replied " with respect Sensei, I thought you would harmonise with me, as I am nage ? ".

I had lunch with TK Chiba Sensei recently, he spoke of the early days of Aikido, to my surprise he said " Aikido today had become watered down" I replied " I would say it has become vapourised Sensei "...that made him smile.

Henry Ellis
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Henry Ellis Sensei,
Now that IS a very good description of a category that we should now call "Vaporised Aikido"
The art of self defence without touching....
I somehow get the feeling there would be a lot of takers for it!
I did find that quite amusing.... Thank you
Kind Regards
Tony
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Old 02-06-2009, 05:05 AM   #24
Abasan
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

With respect,

I've participated in Shihan's seminar quite recently and I would like to say that it has taught me a number of things. Perhaps not even a fifth of what Shihan wanted to share but at least some of those things I could comprehend with my limited ability and experience at that point in time.

To say that the no touch throws are technique would be a waste of breath. It really shouldn't be described as a throw really I would think. To me its more of a training methodology.

Gathering is one of the basic concepts imparted. Not pull or push, but bringing uke into yourself. Being one with him in mind, body and spirit. Uniting for one moment and then letting him go his way.

Shihan's aikido is soft but it is powerful. If of course you go to his class to oppose him, you will lose the opportunity to learn another aspect of aikido. The kokoro musubi aspect that you don't get anywhere else. Its too bad really, since he won't bother to train with you. Not because he can't 'throw' you. With more physical aiki and musubi I don't think you will be able to resist his throws.

Seriously though, if you like to have more physical aspects in your training go ahead and practice that way. Doesn't mean that you're wrong. And don't take at face value things you don't really understand from a cursory observation. Its really better to at least try to understand the meaning behind Shihan's method of training.

Regards.

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Old 02-06-2009, 06:45 AM   #25
Marc Abrams
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Re: No touching aikido, ki extention, fakes ukes?

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
With respect,

I've participated in Shihan's seminar quite recently and I would like to say that it has taught me a number of things. Perhaps not even a fifth of what Shihan wanted to share but at least some of those things I could comprehend with my limited ability and experience at that point in time.

To say that the no touch throws are technique would be a waste of breath. It really shouldn't be described as a throw really I would think. To me its more of a training methodology.

Gathering is one of the basic concepts imparted. Not pull or push, but bringing uke into yourself. Being one with him in mind, body and spirit. Uniting for one moment and then letting him go his way.

Shihan's aikido is soft but it is powerful. If of course you go to his class to oppose him, you will lose the opportunity to learn another aspect of aikido. The kokoro musubi aspect that you don't get anywhere else. Its too bad really, since he won't bother to train with you. Not because he can't 'throw' you. With more physical aiki and musubi I don't think you will be able to resist his throws.

Seriously though, if you like to have more physical aspects in your training go ahead and practice that way. Doesn't mean that you're wrong. And don't take at face value things you don't really understand from a cursory observation. Its really better to at least try to understand the meaning behind Shihan's method of training.

Regards.
Ahmad:

You make assumptions about people you have never met. I am not shooting down the importance of solid Ki training and the ability of both nage and uke to be continuously sensitized to each other's energy. What we are responding to is a manner of taking ukemi that develops habits that would result in somebody getting hurt if he/she were to do that in a real-life attack situation. HOW YOU PRACTICE IS HOW YOU WILL AUTOMATICALLY RESPOND IF YOU REALLY HAD TO USE YOUR STUFF TO PROTECT YOURSELF. There are a good number of us who train and teach in a manner that emphasizes good energy (soft is a bad description in my book), yet do not allow habits to form that can really be dangerous.

I will sum it up simply. Apply the "school of hard knocks test" to your Aikido. Have somebody really try and strike you. If your Aikido works fine, if it does not, you have a wealth of information that you can use to help make your Aikido really work, regardless of the useless tags (eg. "soft", "hard", "medium rare".....)

Marc Abrams
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