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Old 08-18-2009, 02:52 AM   #26
Aikilove
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Gimme' a break David! I've respected your opinions at this forum going far back, but using some movie-character-intended-to-sell-alot-at-the-box office as a representative for someones RL-personality, character and otherwise moral build, leaves me little room than to think you are a very naive or narrow minded person yourself.
But I might be wrong about you, because I haven't met you or trained with you, so damaging words on a forum like this could have been a slip or something NOT representing you as a person. Or have you actually spend some time with the man you speak so highly of? Or are you really just using Hollywood flicks, and third hand stories, as a frame of reference when judging a man?
*shudders* 'guess it says more about you than Seagal. Maybe he is a "jerk". Maybe not. I don't know, so I prefer to not say anything negative in public about a man I don't know.

/J

Jakob Blomquist
 
Old 08-18-2009, 07:28 AM   #27
David Orange
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Quote:
Guy N. L. Jameson wrote: View Post
Do you think his film roles can be equated to how he taught/teaches?
His films are a form of teaching. He's certainly "taught" more people about aikido in the films than he has in real life.

What would you think of aikido if Ueshiba did those kinds of things in the video clips you see of him?

Not good lessons.

Last edited by David Orange : 08-18-2009 at 07:34 AM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 08-18-2009, 07:33 AM   #28
David Orange
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Quote:
Jakob Blomquist wrote: View Post
Gimme' a break David! I've respected your opinions at this forum going far back, but using some movie-character-intended-to-sell-alot-at-the-box office as a representative for someones RL-personality, character and otherwise moral build, leaves me little room than to think you are a very naive or narrow minded person yourself.
You wouldn't be the only person to think so.

However, aikido is a tremendously powerful mode of subconscious communication. Seagal's films are a despicable use of that powerful tool and gift. It's just like Jim and Tammy Bakker or any other person who misuses The Bible to make money for themselves. It's evil. It's the equivalent of prostituting aikido, and his positition would equate to the pimp in that simile. I hate to see a great art used that way. And that is real life.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 08-18-2009, 08:01 AM   #29
AsimHanif
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Seems strange to me that people would hold Seagal Sensei under such tough scrutiny though most of us here have not studied with him directly or indirectly but at the same time will not hold our own 'heads of organizations' to the same scrutiny.
 
Old 08-18-2009, 08:35 AM   #30
Mark Mueller
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
me? Tactful??? You must be kidding!

As far as being pretentious, most people who actually have something to say about an endeavor they've spent 20 years at can seem pretentious, I guess.
B,
R
and that is one of the main problems with the folks who have been practicing 20 years (myself included). Can we get past the messenger to the message?
 
Old 08-18-2009, 09:14 AM   #31
David Orange
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Quote:
Asim Hanif wrote: View Post
Seems strange to me that people would hold Seagal Sensei under such tough scrutiny though most of us here have not studied with him directly or indirectly but at the same time will not hold our own 'heads of organizations' to the same scrutiny.
If you've seen his movies, you've studied with him indirectly and his prostitution of aikido has influenced your deeper mind.

If you don't hold your "head of organization" to a high standard, it's a very big mistake.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 08-18-2009, 09:49 AM   #32
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

In several of his movies, someone he loves (daughter, lover, etc) has been abducted or something similar. If you were going out to try to save someone, would you not have a little aggression and perhaps be a bit more violent then neccessary? Judging someone from movies just doesn't seem fair to me. As far as judging from videos, how do you know he is being mean to his uke? If the uke has stuck around that long obviously it doesn't bother them and chances are they can take the fall just fine. I wouldn't mind sensei throwing me about if I knew how to take the fall. Opinions from other people are often twisted as they go down the line of 50 people till it gets to you. Should you take others experiences into consideration? Certainly. However, I wouldn't suggest making a final judgement until you have personally met and or trained with a person.

That is just my opinion though.....

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
 
Old 08-18-2009, 10:18 AM   #33
Michael Hackett
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

On the other hand, his earlier movies created a wider interest in Aikido with the general public. Some of those folks found dojo and began training and learned that Aikido was far different than what they saw on the screen and stuck with it to become excellent martial artists and better people perhaps. We've had generations of martial artists/actors who have engendered interest in the MAs and may or may not have been terrific human beings. Spencer Tracy, Jimmy Cagney, David Carradine and the list goes on.

Oh yeah, I'm not one of Seagal Sensei's students, nor a fan. I have had the pleasure of training once with one of his direct students and one student who was a "generation removed". Both were wonderful folks to train with. They were tough, focused, and generous people on the mat. I can only wonder where they learned that......

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
 
Old 08-18-2009, 10:36 AM   #34
Lan Powers
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

From "Path Beyond Thought" the film has a very long list of students, (and former students) who had only praise for him on a personal level.
The film personna is a construct who (it is hoped) doesn't reflect his true personal qualities.
It IS just acting, however poorly done.

For what it is worth, the very first time I actually SAW Aikido was in his movie Above The Law. Heard of it, wanted to try it, butnever actually found it in the rural area I lived in.
Big ripples in the movie pond when it came out.... as posted earlier lots of potential *then*.
Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
 
Old 08-18-2009, 10:56 AM   #35
David Orange
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
In several of his movies, someone he loves (daughter, lover, etc) has been abducted or something similar. If you were going out to try to save someone, would you not have a little aggression and perhaps be a bit more violent then neccessary?
Sure. And what if they dismembered someone you loved and kept their torso alive on a hot griddle, slowly roasting?

Sick idea, isn't it?

Isn't it sick to dream up garbage like that and post it for others? And isn't it sicker to film something like that and make it more and more gruesome until people desire to see the person who "did" it be likewise tortured (Steven Seagal style) until bones pop out of their bodies and he actually gouges their eyes out of their heads (Marked for Death, was it?)?

The point of the whole thing is that Seagal and Chuck Norris both go to great lengths to build up these inhuman monsters and to stir people's desire to see violence done to them. That is the sick and evil part of what they do (along with the hyper violence, of course).

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
Judging someone from movies just doesn't seem fair to me.
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luke 6:44-46

His movies speak of the abundance of his heart, as someone said above, he just seems to desire to hurt people. You let his evil into your mind, you let him hurt you, too. His sick movies have hurt a lot of people and they have hurt aikido.

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
As far as judging from videos, how do you know he is being mean to his uke? If the uke has stuck around that long obviously it doesn't bother them and chances are they can take the fall just fine. I wouldn't mind sensei throwing me about if I knew how to take the fall.
I didn't mention Seagal's video training clips. I said if you saw O Sensei acting like that in his videos, you'd think he was a super jerk, too.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 08-18-2009, 12:07 PM   #36
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Well, I guess I found out a lot of stuff I didn't know before about Seagal. If you feel that you must hurt your ukes to prove a point then you are a loser, regardless. I heard about the Gene LeBelle encounter before but I didn't know if that were true. I guess it was because they way I heard it was the same way exactly that I read it here in the forum. Wow.
 
Old 08-18-2009, 01:17 PM   #37
Jonathan
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

I remember watching "Marked for Death" and being appalled at the over-the-top violence Seagal's character applied to the main bad guy. If I remember correctly, Seagal cuts the guy in the crotch with a sword, thumbs out his eyes, breaks his back and then throws him down an elevator shaft onto some massive bolt sticking out of the floor. What's the message in so utterly and savagely destroying another person? Nothing good, I think.

Jon.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
 
Old 08-18-2009, 01:46 PM   #38
sammywhip
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Quote:
Guy N. L. Jameson wrote: View Post
Do you think his film roles can be equated to how he taught/teaches?
Hmm. With regards to ego, maybe. Lol.
 
Old 08-18-2009, 01:58 PM   #39
Kevin Karr
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

I guess you could say I began my Aikido journey by training "indirectly" with Steven Seagal (with Larry Reynosa Sensei). I loved every minute of it! Reynosa Sensei was great and the training was great. The standard was set very high. It wasn't until I got mixed up with the Aiki-Bunnies that I started to have doubts about Aikido.
 
Old 08-18-2009, 02:30 PM   #40
David Orange
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Quote:
Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
I remember watching "Marked for Death" and being appalled at the over-the-top violence Seagal's character applied to the main bad guy. If I remember correctly, Seagal cuts the guy in the crotch with a sword, thumbs out his eyes, breaks his back and then throws him down an elevator shaft onto some massive bolt sticking out of the floor. What's the message in so utterly and savagely destroying another person? Nothing good, I think.
That's what I'm talking about. And I don't want to seem like that's the kind of thing I'm trying to do to Seagal, myself, or to his reputation, but that's what he puts out. I notice that when my little boy gets angry, he does it like me, and that is not good. But I know he's my mirror and that he's putting back what I've put out. I'm not in much of a place to judge other people at all, and I'm generally not qualified to judge even what they do, but sometimes...

In this case, I have to speak against the use of aikido to make money by exploiting the potential for hyper violence. And again, I can't stress enough that aiki involves deep influence of other people's subconscious minds. And to implant these kinds of seriously depraved images into that level of the public consciousness, through such a refined medium as the motion picture is seriously bad karma.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 08-18-2009, 03:11 PM   #41
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
His movies speak of the abundance of his heart, as someone said above, he just seems to desire to hurt people. You let his evil into your mind, you let him hurt you, too. His sick movies have hurt a lot of people and they have hurt aikido.
While you are at it, why not mention every other person who has been in a violent movie or a movie that involves bad morals. You can't single out an actor or two when countless do it. Acting is called acting for a reason. There are even people playing "good roles" who certainly don't live that kind of life. You can't judge a person by a role that they act, nor can you judge a book by its cover.

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I didn't mention Seagal's video training clips. I said if you saw O Sensei acting like that in his videos, you'd think he was a super jerk, too.
I never said you mentioned his training clips. Someone else did. As far as seing O' Sensei tossing around an uke, again it wouldn't bother me provided the uke is/appears to be capable of taking those falls.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
 
Old 08-18-2009, 03:13 PM   #42
Marc Abrams
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
That's what I'm talking about. And I don't want to seem like that's the kind of thing I'm trying to do to Seagal, myself, or to his reputation, but that's what he puts out. I notice that when my little boy gets angry, he does it like me, and that is not good. But I know he's my mirror and that he's putting back what I've put out. I'm not in much of a place to judge other people at all, and I'm generally not qualified to judge even what they do, but sometimes...

In this case, I have to speak against the use of aikido to make money by exploiting the potential for hyper violence. And again, I can't stress enough that aiki involves deep influence of other people's subconscious minds. And to implant these kinds of seriously depraved images into that level of the public consciousness, through such a refined medium as the motion picture is seriously bad karma.

David
David:

I frankly miss the people who use to call the NYC school looking for a place to learn Steven Seagal's Aikido. I was doing a good sideline business in selling Aikido's Super Secret Credit Card -> "It slices, it dices your opponents necks into fine julienne strips.... !"

On the serious side, I am in sync with you on this one. As a parent and now grandparent, I am concerned about what we expose our children to. Watching our children repeat our own stupidity is bad enough, that we do not need other "role models" like that helping us out.

Look forward to training with you again in the near future (I hope).

Regards,

Marc Abrams
 
Old 08-18-2009, 05:21 PM   #43
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

There is a documentary on S. Seagal as an aikidoist on youtube. Yes, his aikido is a lot harder than most of us are used to, but he wants it to be effective on the street. The reason he might come across as a jerk might be because he "knows and expects excelence", to quote one of his students. He is probably not the kind of instructor you would go to if you only want to train twice a week, but rather the kind of instructor for people who want to devote their life to aikido. He has really high standards.

An example from my life: I have had some jerky teachers in high school. When I graduated and reminisced about those years, I realized that I learned most from that one teacher who would push me to do better time and time again. She forced me to study hard, even though I did not want to and the subject did not interest me one bit. She did not go soft on me (or on anyone else, for that matter): she gave biting remarks if I once again forgot to do some task -I'm rather forgetful, if I made a mistake I should not have made anymore in that year. She even had the guts to laugh in your face and call you stupid. I really hated to go to those lessons, but at the end of the day, I learned a LOT. She only acted that way because she wanted us to reach a certain level, which most of us eventually did. I have actually ended up studying that particular subject, now.

So I wonder: is it a teacher's task to be friendly, or to teach people new things and move them further beyond their limits than they thought possible? Being looked down upon or reprimanded has a certain effect on people: they desperately want to prove their teacher and fellow students that they can do it, that they are this good, so they will train harder, and with more resolve.

It depends on which teaching method you prefer.
 
Old 08-18-2009, 05:49 PM   #44
sammywhip
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

In "The Path Beyond Thought" his students drove me insane. They were just like, little mental slaves that would die for Seagal. It was really annoying, they all had their heads up his ass.
 
Old 08-18-2009, 05:53 PM   #45
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Hi folks,

Just a quick reminder that there are people here on AikiWeb who have trained and/or studied with the person in question in this thread.

Please take the time and effort to moderate the tone of your postings. The first rule of the AikiWeb Forums is, "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forum members with respect."

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Old 08-18-2009, 05:54 PM   #46
Darryl Cowens
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Umm, just a little point here.... the only movie I can recall that ever included any 'real' aikido and reference to it was "Nico:Above the Law"

Most of them just recycled the theme of him being a (not so) lean, mean, fighting machine that was a trained Navy Seal or CIA spook etc, etc....

Casual ction movie fans don't get too caught up in authenticity (some of us picky fans do though :P ) .... Just look at JCVD in Kickboxer taking on a Muay Thai fighter, using his traditional choreographed moves..
 
Old 08-18-2009, 06:07 PM   #47
David Orange
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
While you are at it, why not mention every other person who has been in a violent movie or a movie that involves bad morals.
Because their acting doesn't employ as deep a subconscious-to-subconscious communication capacity as Seagal's aikido. It's not that he makes atrocious movies, but that he so misuses the power of aikido to do it, and broadcasts such a counter-aikido spirit in his movies that, as a long time student of aikido, I can't let it go without comment.

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
You can't single out an actor or two when countless do it.
This isn't so much about his acting but about what he chooses to portray and how he misuses aikido to do it.

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
Acting is called acting for a reason. There are even people playing "good roles" who certainly don't live that kind of life. You can't judge a person by a role that they act, nor can you judge a book by its cover.
"We are what we pretend to be. Therefore, we must be careful what we pretend to be."
Kurt Vonnegutt

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
As far as seing O' Sensei tossing around an uke, again it wouldn't bother me provided the uke is/appears to be capable of taking those falls.
So you would think just as well of O Sensei if you saw him smashing people's faces into mirrors or bathroom sinks? Not many ukes can take that.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
 
Old 08-18-2009, 06:13 PM   #48
Darryl Cowens
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Well, I was going to edit my post, but can't now... but it seems appropiate all the same to try and lighten the mood with a "Woohoo" because a courier van just dropped off 'The Glimmer Man' for me on DVD, along with a limited edition Halo figurine I had ordered for my step-son's 17th birthday this weekend
 
Old 08-18-2009, 07:15 PM   #49
G Sinclair
 
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

Quote:
Guy N. L. Jameson wrote: View Post
Do you think his film roles can be equated to how he taught/teaches?
When Seagal Sensei teaches he is direct and succinct. He answers all questions honestly and with tremendous insight. There was one time I had so many questions about Irimi-nage that I had them listed out on a sheet of paper. By the time he answered the first question there was no need to continue. He had explained it in such a way that I knew exactly what he was doing. However, he expects once he does teach something, that you understand it and perform it correctly. He seems to be turned off by having to repeat himself. But is that not the way many traditional teachers teach? His Aikido is on a different level, thus, he teaches on a different level.

As for his desire to hurt people, I will say this: His desire for functional Aikido is greater than his desire to hurt people. I have been in a compromised position more than once (shihonage) and he paused to allow me to catch up or adjust before throwing. Having the opportunity to hurt me, he chose not to.
 
Old 08-18-2009, 07:34 PM   #50
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Re: Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

i think you're not being sensitive to Casey Ryback's feelings. lmao
 

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