Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Language

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-14-2009, 11:33 PM   #1
TEARO
Dojo: Agatsu Aikido,Montreal
Location: Brossard,QC
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 12
Canada
Offline
A question about Shihonage!

Why is it called Shihonage?Can you use it to throw a person in Four directions?

I know Shihonage means four direction throws but I don't see the four directions!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 05:55 AM   #2
Shadowfax
 
Shadowfax's Avatar
Dojo: Allegheny Aikido, Pitsburgh PA
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 884
United_States
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Heiney Sensei just explained this one to us last week... lets see if I get it right.

You have forward and back as you enter and pivot to pass under Uke's arm.
You have up and down as you raise Ukes arm and throw him.

Forward,backward, up, Down... four directions.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 06:19 AM   #3
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,169
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Quote:
Firas Msaddi wrote: View Post
Why is it called Shihonage?Can you use it to throw a person in Four directions?

I know Shihonage means four direction throws but I don't see the four directions!
Shiho nage comes from shiho giri or four direction cut.
When doing shiho giri with a bokken you are practicing turning to receive attacks from four different attackers from four different directions.

In this video clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs157f6dlXs)
you will see zengo giri ( two direction cut), shiho giri (four direction cut) and happo giri ( eight direction cut) with the bokken.

In shiho nage you should do the same but instead of a bokken you are use the four different attacking ukes.

David

Last edited by dps : 08-15-2009 at 06:23 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 06:36 AM   #4
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Forward,backward, up, Down... four directions.
It's the same 4 directions as shiho giri as David explained, but NOT as he explained in terms of 4 different attackers.

Essentially, you can throw (the same) uke in the opposite direction of the attack, i.e. behind him, in the same direction as the attack, or to either side of the attack (from the same side that you are on).

In actuality, it can be in *any* direction... probably easier to show than explain in writing...

Last edited by eyrie : 08-15-2009 at 06:38 AM. Reason: clarity

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 06:50 AM   #5
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,499
United_States
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Essentially, you can throw (the same) uke in the opposite direction of the attack, i.e. behind him, in the same direction as the attack, or to either side of the attack (from the same side that you are on).

In actuality, it can be in *any* direction... probably easier to show than explain in writing...
I agree with this description. The mechanics of what is happening tracks the cross-wise motions of happo undo to produce smooth elliptical curves of entry and throw, as with the Trammel of Archimedes:

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 07:18 AM   #6
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,169
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
It's the same 4 directions as shiho giri as David explained, but NOT as he explained in terms of 4 different attackers.

Essentially, you can throw (the same) uke in the opposite direction of the attack, i.e. behind him, in the same direction as the attack, or to either side of the attack (from the same side that you are on).

In actuality, it can be in *any* direction... probably easier to show than explain in writing...
It is also used to practice turning to receive another attack from another direction after the throw of the first attack because your attention should not be on the person you have just thrown but possible attacks from other directions.

None of the techniques of Aikido are practice to do just one thing. When practicing a technique you are practicing multple skills.

David

Last edited by dps : 08-15-2009 at 07:24 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 11:49 AM   #7
Shadowfax
 
Shadowfax's Avatar
Dojo: Allegheny Aikido, Pitsburgh PA
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 884
United_States
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

ah yeah that is what she did tell us. Thanks for the reminder.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 01:14 PM   #8
Suru
Location: Miami, FL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 453
United_States
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Since I analyzed the words, "four-direction throw," I have seen it as facing the four right-angle directions (N, E, S, W) during the technique, along with every other circular direction in-between. As far as what I hear Mary Heiny Sensei said, that is a new way to look at it for me because I think back to the three-dimensional cross. This is a symbol the Founder speaks about. In "The Secrets of Aikido," John Stevens Sensei parallels shihonage and gratitude; perhaps he means we should offer thanks in every direction instead of taking life for granted.

Drew
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 05:31 PM   #9
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
your attention should not be on the person you have just thrown but possible attacks from other directions.
I'd partially agree with this, but not with the argument and logic of how you arrived at this conclusion. It would be accurate to say that your primary focus should always be on the immediate threat, while your peripheral awareness should be on potential secondary and tertiary threats.

Quote:
It is also used to practice turning to receive another attack from another direction after the throw of the first attack...
Sure, it *could* be used for that purpose, but the argument is akin to the old debate of the functional purpose of Naihanchi (a Karate kata). You appear to be drawing the same conclusion as many have done - that the function of the kata (or in this case waza) is based on the lines of embusen; i.e. used for fighting with your back against a wall, or whilst standing on a dyke in the middle of a paddy field, or defending the King on the steps of the castle. It simply isn't... *could* be used, is not the same as why a technique is named as such.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 07:27 PM   #10
TEARO
Dojo: Agatsu Aikido,Montreal
Location: Brossard,QC
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 12
Canada
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Thank you guys for the help!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2009, 08:56 PM   #11
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

I agree.

4 directions is as good as 8 directions which really means ANY direction. I've also seen jujitsu folks start shihonage the same way and have it result in 4 different (devastating) endings.

When I thought driving power from thrusting from the hips was critical, I thought that the most helpful way to get beginners to think about it is to have nage be as SW corner, and uke be at the NW corner. Then as nage thrusts and then follows in a NE direction, uke lifts themselves up and starts pivoting (which nage continues to follow) such that they (the uke) start to fall in a SE direction to the SE corner, landing the pivoted nage in the NE corner. So the 4 directions are nage orientation from facing NE to SW (and floor), and uke orientation from facing SE to NW (and ceiling).

Now, I would say I do something entirely different, which does not depend on driving from hips or following (but I still think following people into themselves is a valuable skill to learn).

Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2009, 11:20 PM   #12
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 693
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Quote:
Ellis wrote:
And in post #14, someone wants to write: "Shihonage is a manifestation of using the ground to effect aikiage and aikisage in one circle. You transfer power in spirals up the legs through the hara, using windings of ground force, etc." (I just made that up -- and I don't know what it means). What I suggest is that the writer starts a NEW thread in the Internal Strength section, with a preface,
Well I found this here thread...and I was wondering if what you say is legit. it has a strange kind of ring to it. is it a hint?
cheers,
Josh
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 04:06 AM   #13
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

The late Saito Morihiro Sensei used to explain shihonage and kotegaeshi with the sword.

In the clip (0.00 - 0.40) you find his usual display of shihonage's principle of being able to throw someone in 4 directions (and therefore 8, 16, 32... ad infinitum).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP-Hf...eature=related

Coincidentally Daito Ryu has the same throw but call it gohonage (5 directional throw) where the directions are north, south, east, west, and the added direction of "on the spot - i.e. where they (or you) are standing)".

For me it is also about training how to move freely in any direction as the situation demands it.

/J

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 12:35 AM   #14
mjhacker
 
mjhacker's Avatar
Dojo: Renshinkan
Location: Arizona
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 198
United_States
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

四方 (shiho) is a typically poetic way of saying "every direction" rather than merely 4 directions.

Michael Hacker
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Renshinkan
http://renshindojo.com/

自由心流合気武道 - 鍛心館
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 05:59 AM   #15
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,796
United_States
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

every time i heard folks mention that shihonage is the 4-direction throw, i cringed. i believed in Asian language, the literal translation is four-corners of the world. its meaning really is "around the world", i.e. you are moving in a full circle. personally, i believed it's not about uke, but it's about nage. then again, i am low on the totem pole, so what do i know?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 06:00 PM   #16
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Phi... NOW you're getting into ancient Chinese cosmology!

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2009, 07:47 PM   #17
Adam Huss
 
Adam Huss's Avatar
Location: Ohio
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 656
United_States
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

As was mentioned before, Shihonage translates as 4-direction throw but insinuates all directions. I believe there is a video by two married instructors with the surname of Krane (spelling?) who spend a bit of time displaying through some technique how shi'te can throw uke in a bunch of different directions from a single (the same) angle of attack. I thought it was a pretty neat way of physically displaying the "all direction" attribute of shihonage. If I can find the video I will post the proper names of the instructors, their affiliation, and the name of the video.
cheers,
-A

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 06:05 PM
Brawling with a friend Luc X Saroufim General 227 07-17-2006 07:33 PM
My answer to a very good question: Charlie General 1 08-02-2005 07:10 AM
Article: Thoughts on Bugei Studies by Karl Friday AikiWeb System Training 28 04-27-2002 05:21 PM
Question about clothing Shouri (Steve) General 3 07-26-2000 09:44 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:00 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate