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Old 08-17-2009, 07:44 AM   #26
lbb
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Why JUST learn from one source? Did you? Hey look, whatever, it's all good.
I don't think it's necessary or desirable to go through your whole life learning from a single source -- but I think that you do need to give it some time before you really understand what that source is teaching.
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:19 AM   #27
rob_liberti
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I don't think it's necessary or desirable to go through your whole life learning from a single source -- but I think that you do need to give it some time before you really understand what that source is teaching.
I think the whole point is silly and out of context.
I had some prior experience before I met Gleason sensei. I jumped around a bit and I can what you are saying from that perspective. But, I met Gleason sensei in 1990 or 1991. I learned primarily from 1 source for about 18 years. During that time I traveled and learned from everyone else I could and that help me learn from that 1 main source.

What I found was that the 1 main source I was learning from was ME. I am my teacher. Gleason sensei was/is my guide. He set a direction that I continue to follow in my own way. Now I have Dan as another guide. I'm still learning and teaching myself. But I can handle more/additional related advice and integrate it - because I am extremely well trained to do so.

And since I have the opportunity to go share and trade with others who feel the same way, I'm going to do that so that the people I am guiding can reap the benefit. If I am not making sense here, why does anyone ever go to seminars?

Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:43 AM   #28
lbb
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I think the whole point is silly and out of context.
Then why go there? You're the one who went there. You're the one who took the discussion there. Why get salty when someone responds?

Honestly, Ron, I think if I said the earth revolves around the sun, you'd have some beef with that.
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:25 AM   #29
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

Just for Truth in Advertising...I think you meant Rob, Mary, not Ron...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:36 AM   #30
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

ron, i knew you'd have some beef with that.
sheesh.
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:27 AM   #31
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Just for Truth in Advertising...I think you meant Rob, Mary, not Ron...
Sure did...sorry.
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:42 AM   #32
David Orange
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

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Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
O'Sensei gave DR a Renaissance of sorts. He developed and taught Aikido. That is what Aikidoka should practice. He left out or morphed the ancient ways, and so should everyone who practices his martial art.
What did he leave out or morph, Drew?

I don't think it's nearly as much as you think it was. It was the people who followed him in aikikai, including Tohei and Kisshomaru, who dropped a lot of the content from the curriculum. Rob is referring to the kinds of things O Sensei did--not the brand name product that is done now.

David

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"Eternity forever!"

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Old 08-21-2009, 07:52 PM   #33
rob_liberti
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Then why go there? You're the one who went there. You're the one who took the discussion there. Why get salty when someone responds?

Honestly, Ron, I think if I said the earth revolves around the sun, you'd have some beef with that.
Silly me it's just that since the entire point of aikiweb is for us to share and to learn from multiple sources - I thought a discussion based on that premise would be reasonably sweet. I know a lot of the aikido world is not yet ready for aiki. Yet it's happening anyway, even if we cover our eyes, plug our ears, and yell "LA LA LA LA LA". I was just hoing to try to figure out how to best reintegrate aiki into aikido as a group regardless of the signal to noise ratio.

Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 08-21-2009, 08:49 PM   #34
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
...t's just that since the entire point of aikiweb is for us to share and to learn from multiple sources
that won't really happen for a variety of reasons
-people don't feel comfortable or feel any inclination to share what they have learned, and what new thing they integrated into the body
-we have no common parlance for high level terms. for instance even to talk about the leg; and the two simple 'western' view of them having the pronation and supination strength groundpaths. And the 'bubbling point' in the foot. is that like the balance of the 2 ground paths and the intent-effort-system?
-people cannot share information due to explicit or implicit proprietary information. what is a thought? it is funny how the body-ideas have been made secret or obfuscated. in some real way you really do have everything you need right here; right now to practice. but it's like trying to crack a lock..
-paraphrasing 'what good is yakking on the internet about it if yo can't do shit'. '..have guys sweating 2 feet in fronta me and they can't do it with me fixing them..' or something like that. (sorry)
-people don't want to look stupid
-it's aikiweb's fault. you people are too damn smart that you f* it up for everyone else. the general level of reader is astounding i have found...have read some really amazing things here. Thank you everybody. anyhoo.. people are too smart here and somma this stuff is ibvious so we can get snippy being told things we already know. so it can be a tough room, if you know what i mean. hard to share sometimes.
-mostly about a lack of common basis for vocab. like in some cma they talk alot about the kua and how to roll on the ball-and socket; ,etc. it seems to outline a view of the body. does aikido have one, preferably without incurring or getting ooga booga chi snuggets involved?
-i think people would share but people don't really know anything. So there's nothing to share (contentwise)? I know it's not really all true so don't get mad. The one-eyed-men who would be king (for it is so written); Dan and Mike, and other old weathered asians(for it is admitted that nobody can know everythying) choose not to discuss explicitly. did you really think you could type about gongfu? Now there is a good word..may I... Dan, Mike, what is gongfu?
-by the way in certain areas above i was trying to be ironic. don't you think?

Quote:
- I thought a discussion based on that premise would be reasonably sweet.
you fool.

Quote:
I know a lot of the aikido world is not yet ready for aiki. Yet it's happening anyway, even if we cover our eyes, plug our ears, and yell "LA LA LA LA LA". I was just hoing to try to figure out how to best reintegrate aiki into aikido as a group
do you think average persons can be tought to do and build aiki? (is that an okay thing to say?) What about fatasses? Can you sell a 'pill'... could you, say, just like sit out at work during lunch and do chinkonkishin kicking all the bandas and stuff and come out with such a strenuous internal workout that you're literally sweating out the babaganoush you had for breakfast. oh yeah.

Quote:
l "LA LA LA LA LA". I
something tells me you'd be doing that anyway.

Ok, Rob; i've got a question if anyone who is scientifically inclined, other than eric mead) could offer me _any_ kind of real intuitive understanding of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_work ; and how it could potentially be helpful in a way of moving your body.
honestly; have no idea how this could ever fit into martial arts. but i think that it does frankly. chasing doun a hunch. aiight.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
a group regardless of the signal to noise ratio.
just as a point of common nomenclature you could have chosen to have written '..regardless of the SNR.' (or snr, if you prefer to be casual about your nomencature).

see; just wait...noone's gonna talk about it anwya.
goodnight and goodluck
Josh (I really like how Ron signs his posts) Philipson
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Old 08-21-2009, 10:34 PM   #35
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Ok, Rob; i've got a question if anyone who is scientifically inclined, other than eric mead) could offer me _any_ kind of real intuitive understanding of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_work ; and how it could potentially be helpful in a way of moving your body.
honestly; have no idea how this could ever fit into martial arts. but i think that it does frankly. chasing doun a hunch. aiight.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...ual#post159792

Ooops.

Virtual work still uses pseudo-vectors and virtual forces and therefore, being more analytic and less concrete, is not as useful or immediately applicable (in my opinion) as the method of moments (hinted at in my digression on the manner of sensing precessions in static mode= sensing the instantaneous moments in the structural chain) Moment seems more intuitive -- though both can be applied. Furitama, as a slight cyclic movement, is an analog to the principle of virtual work for purposes of generating an "echo" to feel structure with.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-22-2009, 06:15 AM   #36
rob_liberti
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

Josh,

I know I wasn't going to get a lot of sharing on the "aiki" front. I was talking about the other methods of approach for learning skills (not aiki skills per se) with aikido and about approaches of pressure testing aikido (not necessarily aiki powered aikido).

Basically, I don't want to throw away the baby with the bathwater. But in this case, I'm not as interested in most people's "baby" - but they put a heck of a lot of good work into thinking about their particular bathwater(s) and I'd like to leverage that good work with "aiki" (as my baby in this example).

Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 08-22-2009, 06:50 AM   #37
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

D'OH!

nevermind then.
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Old 08-22-2009, 01:56 PM   #38
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I was just hoing to try to figure out how to best reintegrate aiki into aikido as a group regardless of the signal to noise ratio.

Rob
Since it has more to do with how well an individual understands the way his or her body can operate, I think the best way is to experience the people who are "best" at it and then do our best to share what we pick up. My view is that while we can describe the "problem" in terms of Aikido the real problem is an individualistic one. Simply applying competitive componants, for example, does nothing to teach the thing itself. You can structure class in the best possible way and still not teach it best to everyone.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-23-2009, 06:27 AM   #39
phitruong
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

setup separate class to work on aiki. over time, folks will integrate aiki into their aikido by themselves or not. trying to do aiki in the traditional aikido class is a losing proposition.

lets face it. aiki works are not sexy. folks like to do big throws, big beautiful ukemi, umpteen ways to do shihonage, etc and etc. aiki works are just work, work, work; tedious work, boring work, and time consuming work that take years to realize the potential if any. it's not one of those fast food aikido thing.
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Old 08-23-2009, 10:40 AM   #40
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
setup separate class to work on aiki. over time, folks will integrate aiki into their aikido by themselves or not. trying to do aiki in the traditional aikido class is a losing proposition.
The Ki Society, as other people have noted, does define two areas that need to be developed. The "ki" aspect and the waza aspect. Although there can be a division of, first hour "ki" class, second hour "aikido" class (with variations), both are still taught concurrently. The only problem with this model, is that a student on day one is taught in this manner. I suppose the ideal situation would be to have a new student (or an established student just beginning "ki" training), attend only the "ki" class for a minimum of three months (or longer). After which, the student must pass the first "ki" rank test, before being brought into waza training. This test contains the bare minimum requirements to show that the student has a good basic grasp on the concepts and early development of the skills.

I think this could be made to work as long as all of the students have gone through this process and are able to demonstrate the basic skill-set. To Phi's point, this would be putting the responsibility on the student to train every day on the body skills. If they don't put in the work, they won't pass the test(s). The work is tedious, sometimes boring and usually frustrating. This is not thought of as the way to attract new students. However, if the dojo as a whole is able to show a solid grasp of the "ki" skills while showing a good infusion of these skills in their waza, then I think a viable dojo membership takes care of itself. There's just that BIG hump to initially get over.

Of course, all of this hinges on a capable instructor who has gone through a similar process and continues to relentlessly train the basic skills.

Thanks,
Adam
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Old 08-23-2009, 10:45 AM   #41
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

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Adam Bauder wrote: View Post
The Ki Society, as other people have noted, does define two areas that need to be developed.
I just wanted to add that my previous post had to do with a structured curriculum, as opposed to how the ki skills are actually taught. Hence, the need for a "capable instructor".

Best,
Adam
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Old 08-23-2009, 02:19 PM   #42
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
setup separate class to work on aiki. over time, folks will integrate aiki into their aikido by themselves or not. trying to do aiki in the traditional aikido class is a losing proposition.

lets face it. aiki works are not sexy. folks like to do big throws, big beautiful ukemi, umpteen ways to do shihonage, etc and etc. aiki works are just work, work, work; tedious work, boring work, and time consuming work that take years to realize the potential if any. it's not one of those fast food aikido thing.
perhaps morning classes?
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:06 AM   #43
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

Actually, to go strictly back to the subject of the thread, I don't think one CAN work on aiki in a traditional aikido class except perhaps for oneself.

Traditional aikido classes are not really structured for real learning, IMO, they are places to play and experiment with knowledge and skills gained from direct hand-on coaching and practice.

I'm personally not a fan of the traditional aikido class and I was breaking out of it before I changed directions. IMO, they are too fast paced, with not enough CLEAR explanation or real transmission of 'how stuff works', not enough repetition (4 times, right left, then switch roles, really!?!), and most people are not really doing what the leader was demonstrating in the first place even if/when it was good stuff (I can no longer bring myself to call them an instructor or teacher without seeing something more).

I know lots of people who are trying or have tried to break out of that mold, but I know lots more who get their panties in a bundle if you do. I don't think they'd care for the way I train today because I can't/dont' count how many repetitions we do before changing roles, and we are constantly working on learning on how to simulate fast movement while moving a slowly as we are currently capable.

So.. if it isn't clear, my thought is that you shouldn't even try to incorporate aiki into a traditional aikido class.. if aiki is what is important to you, change how you train and forget about a tradition that is hardly old enough to be truly 'time honored'.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
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Old 08-24-2009, 10:29 AM   #44
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

Quote:
Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
Actually, to go strictly back to the subject of the thread, I don't think one CAN work on aiki in a traditional aikido class except perhaps for oneself.
The main problem is going to be what the teacher knows and leads the class in doing, IMO. At the moment, the only 'traditional' ASU teacher with very good Aikido skills and who also has a reasonable complement of internal skills is Hiroshi Ikeda, IMO. So in addition to his ability to teach wide-ranging Aikido techniques, Ikeda also has the ability to teach how I.S. skills are used within Aikido.

There are some Ki-Society native-Japanese teachers, too, but I have only had superficial contact with some of them, so I can't comment too intelligently on what they do. The telling factor is going to be what the students can do and that's going to be the real horse-race. At the moment, I'm interested in watching the development of Ikeda's students over the next few years; I feel that Ikeda will develop (potentially) some students with I.S. and technique skills with one of the better chances of success. But who knows?

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:47 AM   #45
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

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Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
..., and we are constantly working on learning on how to simulate fast movement while moving a slowly as we are currently capable.
Why do you do that? You move as slow as possible to make it easier evaluating your movements and technique, but it needs to simulate fast movement to be martially viable?
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:34 AM   #46
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

First we had "true internal strength", now it's "real learning". This will end well.
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:01 AM   #47
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
First we had "true internal strength", now it's "real learning". This will end well.
you assumed that it would end.

it's quite irritating when folks tell you about learning as though you don't already know about it. what have we been doing, not learning? come on, many of us here have college degree, we know how to learn, damn it!

say, you know anything about this "real learning" that you can teach moi? along with some "internal strength" as well?
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:01 AM   #48
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
say, you know anything about this "real learning" that you can teach moi?
Depends, what's your definition of "real teaching"?
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Old 08-25-2009, 01:08 PM   #49
tarik
 
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Re: Working on aiki in traditional aikido class

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Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Why do you do that? You move as slow as possible to make it easier evaluating your movements and technique, but it needs to simulate fast movement to be martially viable?
When you move too quickly, you cannot monitor and override habitual movements that are detrimental to your training goal. Also the window of opportunity is longer, which allows you more opportunity for success. Success is a vital component to learning.

When you are not accurately simulating fast movement, what you learn will not apply when you speed back up (so why learn it).

Tarik

Tarik Ghbeish
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