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Old 06-10-2007, 08:37 AM   #1
jennifer paige smith
 
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Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Recently I have added Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu to my practice. Tenshinsho is an active,combat form of sword that appears to be very obscure in the United States.Unlike other Iaido forms that I have been aquainted with, Jigen ryu is dynamically aggressive and maintains a primary marriage to combat sensibility .However, it is also the most compatable form of sword with Aikido movement that I have ever been exposd to. The persitance of attack and the speed with which we draw is amazing to combine with aikido. It is very alive.

I am fortunate to train with Phil Ortiz Sensei of the NYC Budokai.www.newyorkbudokai.net/curriculum.html

Here's a link to a demo at CherryBlossom in Japan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6k0LJqIZp4

Does anyone else out there practice Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu?

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 06-10-2007 at 08:49 AM.

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Old 06-10-2007, 10:27 PM   #2
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

I have just started in a different koryu art, Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo. I think that in general the distinction between iaiDO and the koryu arts is in that combat sensibility.
I have been delighted to find that my body "takes to it" - not to say that my form is any good; it certainly ISN'T! - but that my aikido background has made learning the gross movements a lot easier than I'd anticipated.
http://www.suioryu-usa.org/index.html

Last edited by Janet Rosen : 06-10-2007 at 10:29 PM. Reason: add the link

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Old 06-11-2007, 03:16 PM   #3
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Interesting youtube video on Jigen Ryu. At least from the video, I see no evidence that it is any less or more compatible with aikido than any other form of iaido. It definitely seems to have some connection or relationship to the Jinsuke-Eishin Ryu lineages.

Last edited by kironin : 06-11-2007 at 03:31 PM.

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Old 06-11-2007, 03:30 PM   #4
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I have just started in a different koryu art, Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo. I think that in general the distinction between iaiDO and the koryu arts is in that combat sensibility.
DO?? puleeeeze

iaido is generally accepted as koryu arts unless you are talking about for example kendo practioners practicing only seita gata.

I think you are putting out a false distinction there.

Some people might use the label do, some jutsu, in general it's XXXX Ryu or XXXX Ryu Iai

kenpo is a bit weird to attach to the end there, except it does reflect the hybrid nature of this school's history.

Quote:
When he was 18, he began to study the Iai techniques of the Hayashizaki school under Sakurai Gorozaemon. After being given an overview of those techniques, he travelled throughout Japan, to study under different masters and perfect his skills. For some time, he trained in the Naginata-jutsu of the Buddhist monks from Mount Hiei, techniques that were applied often by the priests during the Warring States period.
When means the founder of this style was schooled in the Jinsuke-Eishin lineage of swordmanship.

Rather it looks more like the distinction you are thinking of is that this is intended to be a sogo budo.

Last edited by kironin : 06-11-2007 at 03:45 PM.

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Old 06-11-2007, 04:31 PM   #5
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

I've found that a lot of the generalizations made by different Iai teachers about iaiDO are aimed more at Seitei Iai than many of the koryu lines of Iai. Like you point out however, the name of the ryuha can tell you a lot more than the seemingly random classification words. I do find it odd that Jigen ryu would be considered particularly compatible with Aikido, since it's known for it's very direct powerful movements. To the untrained they often look a bit brutish. Perhaps it's a different line, but this is what most of the Jigen Ryu that I've seen looks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq6lrpzVfm4

Update, looks like this is a smaller line that's quite different from most Jigen ryu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6k0LJqIZp4

Last edited by ChrisMoses : 06-11-2007 at 04:37 PM.

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Old 06-11-2007, 05:46 PM   #6
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
DO?? puleeeeze
iaido is generally accepted as koryu arts unless you are talking about for example kendo practioners practicing only seita gata.
....Rather it looks more like the distinction you are thinking of is that this is intended to be a sogo budo.
I readily admit an error based on inadequate education!

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Old 06-11-2007, 05:58 PM   #7
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
Interesting youtube video on Jigen Ryu. At least from the video, I see no evidence that it is any less or more compatible with aikido than any other form of iaido.
I was left with a similar impression FWIW.

Mike

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Old 06-11-2007, 06:53 PM   #8
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
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Quote:
When he was 18, he began to study the Iai techniques of the Hayashizaki school under Sakurai Gorozaemon. After being given an overview of those techniques, he travelled throughout Japan, to study under different masters and perfect his skills. For some time, he trained in the Naginata-jutsu of the Buddhist monks from Mount Hiei, techniques that were applied often by the priests during the Warring States period.
When means the founder of this style was schooled in the Jinsuke-Eishin lineage of swordmanship.
I have a couple of questions about your statement above:

My understanding is that the Jinsuke-Eishin line originated after Hasegawa Chikaranosuke Eishin (Hidenobu), 7th Headmaster of the Hayashizaki Ryu, developed his own style which was later incorporated into the Jinsuke-Eishin line of teaching by Arai Seitetsu Kiyonobu, 8th Headmaster of the Hayashizaki Ryu. Do you have any sources that indicate a more specific date of when the Jinsuke-Eishin line originated, or of the birth date of Hasegawa Eishin? (Since Hayashizaki was born in 1542, I think it is safe to assume that Hasegawa, Hayashizake Ryu's 7th generation successor, lived later in the 17th century as some sources suggest.)

According to the information linked above, Mima Yoichizaemon Kagenobu (founder of the Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo) studied Hayashizaki Ryu when he was 18 year old, or around 1595. Doesn't this mean that Yoichizaemon most likely studied the original Hayashizaki Ryu (perhaps still called Shimmei Muso Ryu back then?) and not a later transformation of it (Jinsuke-Eishin line or Eishin Ryu)?
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Old 06-11-2007, 07:44 PM   #9
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Perhaps it's a different line, but this is what most of the Jigen Ryu that I've seen looks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq6lrpzVfm4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6k0LJqIZp4
The two are completely unrelated schools. Their only relationship is that they happen to have homophones (written with different kanji) in their names. I'm pretty sure there's stuff about this in the iaido-l archives, as it came up more than once.

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Old 06-12-2007, 08:53 AM   #10
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
Interesting youtube video on Jigen Ryu. At least from the video, I see no evidence that it is any less or more compatible with aikido than any other form of iaido. It definitely seems to have some connection or relationship to the Jinsuke-Eishin Ryu lineages.
Thanks Craig,
The video is a little dry (as can be the case with video) and I'll seek for another more alive clip if possible.

In my experience TSS Jigen Ryu is fairly obscure and I am interested in sharing it. While it may not appear on video to be anymore compatible than others you have practiced, which I can accept because it is your eye viewing, I experience Tenshinsho, the way I'm practicing it, as incredibly inspiring and dynamically compatible with energetic aikido. Whether it is more or less compatible than others isn't really my intended point. That I find it very compatible with my practice, is. I would like to share my practice with anyone who is interested in checking it out.

Thanks for looking at the video and lending to the conversaton. I'd be interested in learning about your Iaido practice a little bit more. Without knowing you well online, you seem to have a wealth of knowledge.

About TenShinSho Jigen Ryu:
The inspiration I draw from this relates to the bouncy, forward stance and the central position of the scia at the obi at all times. In TSS Jigen Ryu the scia remains relatively static and the left foot is forward for the draw and the hip drops back to draw while the feet stay the same. The blade is drawn 'pizza pie style' I call it, because the blade is flat and drawn in a flat plane, often. The style has a 'wild' nature in a certain respect. This I also find to be inspiring and it has brought new life to my practice.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 06-12-2007 at 09:03 AM.

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Old 06-12-2007, 08:57 AM   #11
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
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The two are completely unrelated schools. Their only relationship is that they happen to have homophones (written with different kanji) in their names. I'm pretty sure there's stuff about this in the iaido-l archives, as it came up more than once.
Yes, they are completely unrelated. The first style is a little Maori like .

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Old 06-12-2007, 10:30 AM   #12
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
The video is a little dry (as can be the case with video) and I'll seek for another more alive clip if possible.
As my friend Scott Irey says (and as I often tell people who come to 'check out' my school), "Some people say that watching Iai is as boring as watching paint dry. That's not correct, it's much more like watching dry paint."

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
About TenShinSho Jigen Ryu:
The inspiration I draw from this relates to the bouncy, forward stance and the central position of the scia at the obi at all times.
Don't suppose you mean "saya"?

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Old 06-12-2007, 10:59 AM   #13
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
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As my friend Scott Irey says (and as I often tell people who come to 'check out' my school), "Some people say that watching Iai is as boring as watching paint dry. That's not correct, it's much more like watching dry paint."

Don't suppose you mean "saya"?
Oh Chris, my saya-tica is killing me...

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Old 06-12-2007, 11:03 AM   #14
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

This is one of the rare times that i can spot a difference in the way a different iai school does things.
Not saying that i belong to a school of iai; i have only done very little (waiting for my knees to toughen up ) MJER and some MSR (Is that right Mike? The Otani stuff?). Kendo gives me most of my sword practice.

I have a question, and pardon the ignorance!

In the first kata after nuketsuki the kensen continues in an almost unbroken movement to the right. Why is "the line" not controlled?

Peace and love budoka

Jo
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Old 06-12-2007, 02:45 PM   #15
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
Jo Duncan wrote: View Post
This is one of the rare times that i can spot a difference in the way a different iai school does things.
Not saying that i belong to a school of iai; i have only done very little (waiting for my knees to toughen up ) MJER and some MSR (Is that right Mike? The Otani stuff?). Kendo gives me most of my sword practice.

I have a question, and pardon the ignorance!

In the first kata after nuketsuki the kensen continues in an almost unbroken movement to the right. Why is "the line" not controlled?

Peace and love budoka

Jo
Hmmm, if you're asking me, I can't tell you at the moment. I'll ask my teacher when I see him next. I'm sure in some respect it is. BTW: my sensei Phil Ortiz is the heir to Otani Sensei. Thank you for remembering his name.

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Old 06-12-2007, 03:27 PM   #16
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
I have a couple of questions about your statement above:

My understanding is that the Jinsuke-Eishin line originated after Hasegawa Chikaranosuke Eishin (Hidenobu), 7th Headmaster of the Hayashizaki Ryu, developed his own style which was later incorporated into the Jinsuke-Eishin line of teaching by Arai Seitetsu Kiyonobu, 8th Headmaster of the Hayashizaki Ryu. Do you have any sources that indicate a more specific date of when the Jinsuke-Eishin line originated, or of the birth date of Hasegawa Eishin? (Since Hayashizaki was born in 1542, I think it is safe to assume that Hasegawa, Hayashizake Ryu's 7th generation successor, lived later in the 17th century as some sources suggest.)
Sources say that Hayashizaki was the name taken by Shigenobu Jinsuke after having his inspiration and honors the location where his inspiration took place. Often you will seen his full name as Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu.

So when I say Jinsuke-Eishin, I am acknowledging the two men who are thought to stand out the most in the whole lineage going back to the 1500's.

Was this just a confusion of names for you or something more ?

Quote:
According to the information linked above, Mima Yoichizaemon Kagenobu (founder of the Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo) studied Hayashizaki Ryu when he was 18 year old, or around 1595. Doesn't this mean that Yoichizaemon most likely studied the original Hayashizaki Ryu (perhaps still called Shimmei Muso Ryu back then?) and not a later transformation of it (Jinsuke-Eishin line or Eishin Ryu)?
a name is a name is a name.....

call it Shimmei Muso Ryu (what Jinsuke called it)
call it Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu (what is immediate followers called it)
call it Hayasizaki Ryu
call it a dozen other different names and permutations
or call it the Jinsuke-Eishin lineage of swordmanship

The history of what influence what isn't a simple discussion.

Jinsuke-Eishin Ryu is not to me saying the same thing as Eishin Ryu.

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Old 06-12-2007, 03:39 PM   #17
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Hmmm, if you're asking me, I can't tell you at the moment. I'll ask my teacher when I see him next. I'm sure in some respect it is. BTW: my sensei Phil Ortiz is the heir to Otani Sensei. Thank you for remembering his name.
I knew of this group but the website says that Ortiz Sensei teaches the Muso Shinden Ryu classes and another teacher teaches the Jigen Ryu classes. Website messup? Otani Sensei's group seemed to have cut any connections with Japan a long time ago and he died suddenly so it was exactly clear to me that they had real direction. But I guess many arts are struggling to survive in Japan as well.

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Old 06-12-2007, 03:56 PM   #18
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Perhaps it's a different line, but this is what most of the Jigen Ryu that I've seen looks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq6lrpzVfm4
Okay, that made me say WTF!!!!!!!

but it did make what they are doing here a bit more intelligable
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znESdcxjkdU&NR

but the videos below seem more mainstream or at least in line with the original video
(be prepared to watch the dried paint)

Tenshinshou Jigen ryu demonstration

1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoofcmsMpEw

2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY4dhA2vxbs

3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-rJ6oVQ9XM

4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znESdcxjkdU&NR

Last edited by kironin : 06-12-2007 at 04:00 PM.

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Old 06-12-2007, 04:13 PM   #19
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Hmmm, if you're asking me, I can't tell you at the moment. I'll ask my teacher when I see him next. I'm sure in some respect it is. BTW: my sensei Phil Ortiz is the heir to Otani Sensei. Thank you for remembering his name.
The Otani Sensei Jo mentions is an entirely different Otani I'm afraid. As to the answer to Jo's question I have no idea. We'll try figuring it out at training some time

Mike

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Old 06-13-2007, 08:44 AM   #20
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
Jo Duncan wrote: View Post
I have a question, and pardon the ignorance!

In the first kata after nuketsuki the kensen continues in an almost unbroken movement to the right. Why is "the line" not controlled?

Peace and love budoka

Jo
Almost is the key word there.

If you watch closely the first nukitsuke, he does clearly control the line as you say at the end of his horizontal cut (yoko ichi monji). There is a clear pause establishing his position and control.

I took the next part, while quite different in movement and timing from MSR or MJER to be their form of furikaburi (transition to a kirioroshi).

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Old 06-13-2007, 12:15 PM   #21
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

(Jennifer, sorry for the thread hijack…)
Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
Sources say that Hayashizaki was the name taken by Shigenobu Jinsuke after having his inspiration and honors the location where his inspiration took place. Often you will seen his full name as Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu.

So when I say Jinsuke-Eishin, I am acknowledging the two men who are thought to stand out the most in the whole lineage going back to the 1500's.

Was this just a confusion of names for you or something more ?
Thanks for your response.
I wasn't confused with the names, just using them interchangeably (i.e. Hayashizaki = Jinsuke).
Quote:
a name is a name is a name.....

call it Shimmei Muso Ryu (what Jinsuke called it)
call it Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu (what is immediate followers called it)
call it Hayasizaki Ryu
call it a dozen other different names and permutations
or call it the Jinsuke-Eishin lineage of swordmanship

The history of what influence what isn't a simple discussion.
I understand your point better now. However, for the sake of clarity I submit that Mima Yoichizaemon Kagenobu (founder of Suio Ryu ®) studied Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu's art c. 1595, therefore he was most likely exposed to Jinsuke's original techniques (or something close to it) without the modifications/additions/influence that Hasegawa Chikaranosuke Eishin introduced six generations later (in mid-1600s?). From a Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu or MJER lineage point of view all the different art names you listed might carry similar meaning. But from a Suio Ryu historical perspective I don't think it would be accurate (unless historical sources point me to the contrary) to associate it's founder with the teachings of Hasegawa Chikaranosuke Eishin as the name of the Jinsuke-Eishin line implies. What I am really interested in is Suio Ryu history (reliable information in English is scarce) to help me understand this art and its techniques better, that's what really drew my attention to your comment.

Quote:
Jinsuke-Eishin Ryu is not to me saying the same thing as Eishin Ryu.
Noted.

Again, thanks for your comments.
-Gerardo
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Old 06-13-2007, 12:36 PM   #22
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Perhaps it's a different line, but this is what most of the Jigen Ryu that I've seen looks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq6lrpzVfm4
The exercise where he repeatedly cuts against the sides of the wooden mast looks like a good way to develop the ability to take the center line in aikido empty hand techniques (especially against shomen-uchi and tsuki) or aiki-weapons.
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Old 06-13-2007, 02:03 PM   #23
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
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I knew of this group but the website says that Ortiz Sensei teaches the Muso Shinden Ryu classes and another teacher teaches the Jigen Ryu classes. Website messup? Otani Sensei's group seemed to have cut any connections with Japan a long time ago and he died suddenly so it was exactly clear to me that they had real direction. But I guess many arts are struggling to survive in Japan as well.
The wesite is correct as citing Deborah Sensei as teaching the classes at the NY Budokai. She is ranked as Sandan in TSS Jigen Ryu with all due respect, I believe. It is also true that Phil Sensei teaches the MSR. Phil Sensei is also a Godan in TSS Jigen Ryu, having achieved this rank after a visit to Japan last year. He will be going back there again this Fall with a group from the NYC dojo to train and visit. It is likely that I will be joining them on that trip. Phil Sensei is also a Kyudo Instructor and I have taken to studying Kyudo with him, as well. I really love them both.

I would like to take a minute to say that Phil Sensei( and Deborah Sensei occoring to phil) are incredibly generous and gifted Iaidoka who are continuosly learning new forms and also train consistently in the arts taught by Otani Sensei. Phil Sensei has been at the dojo for over 30 years and Deborah has been there for 20. Phil Sensei generates wonderful relationships with many people where ever he goes, so if there was previously some separation from Japan, there doesn't seem to be any longer. He is an incredibly devoted teacher and student of Traditional Japnese Arts (including horseback Kyudo). I can only recommend training with him if you ever get the opportunity.

Thanks for the post.
Jen

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 06-13-2007 at 02:06 PM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 06-13-2007, 02:18 PM   #24
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
The Otani Sensei Jo mentions is an entirely different Otani I'm afraid. As to the answer to Jo's question I have no idea. We'll try figuring it out at training some time

Mike
AH-HA!

Thanks. Looking forward to it.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 06-13-2007, 02:37 PM   #25
kironin
 
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Re: Ten Shinsho Jigen Ryu-combat sword and aiki

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Phil Sensei is also a Godan in TSS Jigen Ryu, having achieved this rank after a visit to Japan last year. He will be going back there again this Fall with a group from the NYC dojo to train and visit. It is likely that I will be joining them on that trip. Phil Sensei is also a Kyudo Instructor and I have taken to studying Kyudo with him, as well. I really love them both.
Ahh! ok, good to know. I knew their ranks were a bit low to be isolated so good to see that they are actively connected to seniors in Japan now. Congatulations to him on his promotion!

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