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Old 07-20-2005, 12:30 PM   #26
csinca
 
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

Quote:
Juliusz ******** wrote:
For me it really doesn´t matter whether he was awarded with the 4th or 7th dan. After all the most important is, what he is presenting on tatami. Have you ever seen Seagal doing irimi nage on uke, who was taller than 1,60m?

It´s ridiculous. Besides all that I heard that he has stopped teaching aikido. He went to Berlin this year and I didn´t hear then of any seminar with S.Seagal sensei. So?
I'm 6'2" and about 205 pounds and he didn't seem to have any trouble with irimi nage on me at a seminar. I barely felt him but the ground came up and hit me in the back hard enough to knock a little wind out of me.

Chris
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Old 07-20-2005, 12:47 PM   #27
Adam Alexander
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

Quote:
Leslie Lee wrote:
Why is Steven Seagal regarded as a reputable 'Aikidoka'?

Aikido is a martial art. Martial is deadly...Segal portrays deadly.

Didn't Ueshiba say that is was always a MA? I don't agree with Segal's portrayal of Aikido, but, as another said, that's his Aikido...As long as he isn't running around hurting people indiscriminately, what's the difference?


And finally...did you see his timing in that link? It's awesome!

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 07-20-2005 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 07-20-2005, 01:46 PM   #28
csinca
 
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

Quote:
Dan Guthrie wrote:

At the end of the tape he threw a few ukes off the mat and he ended up off as well. Is that a big mistake?
That sort of thing happens sometimes when things aren't choreographed. If you are flowing, you aren't necessarily going to say "Hmmm, I better get back on the mat".

Of course if it's a busy street rather than the edge of the mat, you may want to be more cognicent. Of course that probably changes some other dynamics in the randori as well....

Chris
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Old 07-20-2005, 07:19 PM   #29
dan guthrie
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

Quote:
Chris Sacksteder wrote:
That sort of thing happens sometimes when things aren't choreographed. If you are flowing, you aren't necessarily going to say "Hmmm, I better get back on the mat".

Of course if it's a busy street rather than the edge of the mat, you may want to be more cognicent. Of course that probably changes some other dynamics in the randori as well....

Chris

It seems to me that it's not acceptable - for safety reasons - in the dojo but in a big, important demonstration it's a bit like hitting a wrong note very loud in a solo.

Martially, what if this happened "in real life" and there was traffic or a wall where the mat ends?

In a nutshell, I wish my aikido was as good as Seagal sensei's acting but I think this video shows he isn't perfect.

Just my two cents, I'm not trying to stir up any controversy.
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:40 PM   #30
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

"At the end of the tape he threw a few ukes off the mat and he ended up off as well. Is that a big mistake?" No! its not Sumo! Even if he did throw people of the mat, I still think he is awesome!
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Old 07-21-2005, 08:00 AM   #31
Stanley Archacki
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

The Aikido community seems to be very caught up about Seagal Sensei, but I often see a lot of speculation and judgement without getting into the verifiable facts. If you want to evaluate Seagal, maybe a good place to start would be to look at the quality of some of his top students like Haruo Matsuoka, Larry Reynosa and Luis Santos.
http://www.doshinokai.com/
http://www.makotodojo.com
http://www.tenshindojo.us/tenshin/index.html

Seagal's Tenshin Aikido is Aikikai, not Daito Ryu or some bastardized Aikido mixed with Karate. Years before I started studying Aikido, I was able to recognize and name the techniques he performed in his movies as classical Aikido techniques based only on descriptions of Aikido I had read in books. But, as has been stated before, he can't be judged as a Shihan under Hombu dojo by his movies, any more than a top Aikidoka could, for example, be judged by the quality of the products in another Aikido-related business he or she operated.

Seagal isn't the only teacher to focus his teaching on the martial effictiveness of Aikido. Yet he seems to get much more criticism for this than do Aikidoka who go to the other extreme, and focus heavily on ki almost to the exclusion of the martial.
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Old 07-21-2005, 08:36 AM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

Quote:
Seagal isn't the only teacher to focus his teaching on the martial effictiveness of Aikido. Yet he seems to get much more criticism for this ...
I'm not sure that is what I've heard him critisized for...If anything, I've heard a lot of positive comments about that.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-21-2005, 08:43 AM   #33
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

Stanley, listen to Ron as I think it's another website you're thinking of. Steven Seagal gets criticized for his god-awful films and strangely sensational and bizarre personal life - not his aikido.

The only standard criticism concerning his aikido I've read was being stupid enough to let a known "hard man of judo" get a choke hold on him through arrogance.
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Old 07-21-2005, 09:12 AM   #34
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

Steve Seagals a good guy I reckon his aikido looks highly effective and he certainly deserves his 7th dan imho.

Some of his actions outside of "aikido" are highly commendable too...he does a lot of charity work...supporting organisations like PETA. Of course he's not perfect but I wonder how the lives of those that criticise from afar stand in comparison

Lee
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Old 07-21-2005, 09:26 AM   #35
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

Quote:
Dan Guthrie wrote:
It seems to me that it's not acceptable - for safety reasons - in the dojo but in a big, important demonstration it's a bit like hitting a wrong note very loud in a solo.

Martially, what if this happened "in real life" and there was traffic or a wall where the mat ends?

In a nutshell, I wish my aikido was as good as Seagal sensei's acting but I think this video shows he isn't perfect.

Just my two cents, I'm not trying to stir up any controversy.
Dan,

Just to be clear, I am not claiming perfection for anyone. I'm simply saying that if you are truly flowing and doing a four man randori with people that can take ukemi, you just go with it and play. I'd bet my two cents that none of those ukes really even needed the mats and everybody on the mat knew it.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I certainly agree that if the edge of the mat is a busy street things get very different. But then you are talking about a street altercation and not a randori demonstration. In the street (amazing how much of a cliche that has become) things change from the very beginning of the randori and I really don't see the ukes getting second, third and fourth chances to get up to play some more.

I guess I don't think its that big a deal, but then again it's happened to me in classes and demonstrations..

Have a great day out there!

Chris
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Old 07-22-2005, 09:03 AM   #36
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

In regards to the original question:
From the facts most of the public Aikidoka knows, yes Seagal Sensei is a representation of a true Aikidoka because of his history: He ran the Ten Shin dojo in Osaka, he holds the ranking of 7th Dan in the Aikikai, plus his aikido outside of the movies is pretty amazing. In fact it is so impressive that I was actually going to relocate, leave my job, family, friends, etc…to move to one of the dojo's affiliated with the mighty name of Steven Seagal Shihan.
I went on a visit to a dojo about 2 months ago. I was thoroughly impressed with the teacher's application of technique. It was unlike anything I had previously experienced, and I have been in and out of several dojo over the course of the last eight years of my life. I've been to Colorado, Georgia, California, Michigan, and Florida, visiting different schools, and eventually settled in Michigan (this is my home state) and thought I found a great dojo. And I did, however, after experiencing one of "Segal's" dojo, I saw things that were very different, and I wanted to learn them. For instance, at my previous school, if uke threw a mid-level strike (chudan tsuki), we would tenkan, sort of pull uke around with gravitational force, and then as uke came around, apply a kote geishi. Well, at this particular school, the first thing they did was deflect the tsuki, not even moving, then do a tenkan, and as Uke came around on his own, you would slide forward with your lead foot to a "corner" away from uke's open hand-side, then step in the other "corner" with your opposite foot, cutting with the kote geishi at the same time, all while keeping uke's hand very low. This opened my eyes to a whole new kote-geishi, and there was no way of "fighting" or resisting the technique. Either you fell or you would end up with a damaged wrist. All of the techniques of this school were based on deflections first, similar to kenjutsu (which Seagal claims himself to incorporate into his "version" of aikido.) Their philosophy was to not be there when the attack comes. And it's all based on those deflections.
Well, I was so excited to tell my Sensei about this…and while I was there, the teacher started talking to me about opening up an affiliate dojo here in Michigan. I was very excited to hear that as well. They seemed very open to me. I got back home and showed the guys in my dojo the new techniques I had learned and they all had the same reaction as I did. We all wanted to learn more. Our sensei was not open to the idea at all, and I saw his ego at work. I then left the dojo to pursue this "different" aikido for myself. I got in contact with my first aikido teacher (who had stopped teaching due to an illness) and told him about it, and he was very interested in learning the "TenShin" style of Aikido, now that his illness had settled a bit. So, we had some phone conversations, emails, etc.. with the teacher of the TenShin school and one of his associates, and we were going to start an affiliate dojo here in Michigan. We wondered how we would do this, for several reasons:
1. We didn't know how to do "TenShin Aikido." With none of them coming to Michigan to train us for a set period of time, how would we learn? They told us we would learn a few days each month, by visiting their dojo (not a problem) or at seminars.
2. Because they said that we would have to start over as white belts, learn each kyu level step by step so that we could teach others the same way, and everyone would be learning the same aikido. This bothered me a little bit, not because of wearing a white belt again, but because they stressed that everyone would look the same, from ukemi to technique…well, didn't O'Sensei specifically say that everyone's aikido will be their own? We all have different bodies, different strengths and weaknesses, and while the basics should all be the same basics, where is the room to blossom into your own aikido?

Still, we thought it would be worth the effort. Then, my old teacher went to his doctor and the doc told him that if he took any hardfall ukemi, he might permanently damage his body, due to the fact he has a certain disease. So, he had to decline the offer, and I figured I would do it on my own. The teacher at the "TenShin" school all of a sudden didn't seem interested in helping me out. He was very enthused about this whole endeavor, and the enthusiasm I showed, until he found out that I wouldn't be bringing a whole dojo with me. He said it wouldn't be worth my time, and it wouldn't be fair to his students, because I would be visiting them once or twice a month, for a few classes, and he would have to take time away from their training to teach me how to do things…then when I got back, I wouldn't remember the things he taught me from last time, so he would have to go over them again. I said that I understood, and maybe I would simply move there for a few years to study. Well, my old teacher found this out and he was concerened that it was simply a money-making machine they were interested in. If you started a dojo with these guys, you had to pay yearly dues, plus each dojo has to host 2 seminars per year, which costs $3000.00. This is the standard for every school. Each student had to pay $75 per year, the dojo-cho had to pay $150 per year, then the dojo itself had to pay a certain amount each year, all to the head of this "federation." On top of that, all students were highly encouraged to attend all seminars (which cost $75 per person, plus hotel and food) but were only required to attend 2 a year. I just thought that it was to keep the teacher paid for traveling and what not…so that this could be his full time job. My teacher told me to really think about this, and to start doing research on anyone else who went this route. My research led me to Larry Reynosa. I actually called his dojo, and the man spoke with me for about a half-hour. Anyone can call him and find out from him personally what his side of the story is, you don't have to take my word for it. Just go to the Makoto website and look for the number. He told me very, very disturbing things about the dojo I wanted to join…along with several others, all claiming to be "direct students" under Steven Seagal. Things beyond money issues. Very nasty things indeed…involving young girls. I do not feel that I am the person to write what we discussed, because Larry Reynosa might not want that information to be out there, but any of you can feel free to call him up yourselves. He was not shy at all to talk about it with me…and he didn't know me from Adam. I am no longer pursuing any of that Aikido. I still think that what Seagal's style does as far as technique is the best I have experienced, but it is not worth it to me to be involved with men like that. Even if Larry Reynosa was lying about these guys, there were reasons he left Seagal's side, which were disturbing reasons from what he told me. Matsuoka Sensei also left Seagal's side due to his own reasons…it all seemed so secretive...
I am now training with my old teacher again, the one I started my aikido career with. He can't take falls, but he can still teach very well. And if all of this led to me finding him again, and getting him back into teaching again, then I am thankful.
I just throw a word of caution to anyone interested in learning "Seagals' style" of aikido…because you might be dealing with dangerous men.
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Old 07-22-2005, 10:28 AM   #37
darin
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

I downloaded the demo from that aikijujitsu site. Nice demo.
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Old 07-22-2005, 11:01 AM   #38
darin
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

I liked the aikjujitsu site. Had some cool BJJ movies.
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Old 07-22-2005, 12:58 PM   #39
Roy
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

Darin Hyde,
If you liked those mpegs, you will love the mpegs on http://www.bullshido.com/, under video clips. There's lots of mpegs on that site to check out! I highly recommend the "Drunken Kunfu vs Karate,"I found it to be entertaining.
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Old 07-25-2005, 12:51 AM   #40
Nick Simpson
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

' just love how in the dojo scene at the beginning of that movie, every uke that gets thrown lets out a shouting groan of pain: "Uagh!" That had me laughing for quite some time. '

What, you mean thats not normal???

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 07-25-2005, 05:56 AM   #41
tenshinaikidoka
 
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

I guess my question would be this...Why would Steven Seagal Shihan not be considered a reputable Aikidoka??????
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Old 07-25-2005, 10:57 AM   #42
Nick Simpson
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

Because a lot of arrogant people who are relatively new to aikido seem to think that they are more morally correct and striving to find the path of aiki much better than he does/has. And all the rest. I've only heard good things about him, and thats from people who have trained with him and his students.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 07-25-2005, 11:17 AM   #43
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Because a lot of arrogant people who are relatively new to aikido seem to think that they are more morally correct and striving to find the path of aiki much better than he does/has. And all the rest. I've only heard good things about him, and thats from people who have trained with him and his students.
Out of curriosity, what makes these people arrogant? Is it because they have made a value judgement about another person with little or no direct information at hand?

What is "relatively new" ? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? When does a person no longer qualify as "relatively new"? Is it their rank? At what rank would they then be entitled to an opinion without it being "arrogant"?

At the same time, I do kind of wonder what affect anything Steven Seagal does or doesn't do could have on our own lives or our own aikido. He's just one man, one teacher (at least in the past), and we each have our own teachers, and our own lives. On a guess, I'd say there's plenty of "bad behavior" out there to go around, some of it my own. I don't even have to look for a teacher to find that...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-25-2005, 12:17 PM   #44
Nick Simpson
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

Well:

'Out of curriosity, what makes these people arrogant? Is it because they have made a value judgement about another person with little or no direct information at hand? '

In my opinion yes. But thats just my opinion. Maybe it just makes them ill informed and/or stupid. What I think really makes them arrogant is that they think they have the right to question what someone else is doing/has done with their budo/training/art/whatever. To base it on what they have seen portrayed in a movie is just the icing on the cake.

' What is "relatively new" ? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? When does a person no longer qualify as "relatively new"? Is it their rank? At what rank would they then be entitled to an opinion without it being "arrogant"? '

I used the term relatively new because it is a loose term. There is no exact definition. You have people who have trained all their life saying they are begginners. You have people training for 6 months who think they are masters. Whatever. When I say relatively new to aikido, I mean about a few months. It seems that the majority of these statements about the moral integrety of steven Seagal are made by people who have been studying for a few months. I base this on what I have heard and seen. It doesnt make it the absolute.

As for what rank they would be entitled to having an opinion without being arrogant. well, I never mentioned rank in relation to opinions. The fact that anybody can be arrogant, regardless of rank, a sixth dan can be just as arrogant as a sixth kyu, if not more. So it's a moot point. Grades are held by just people, afterall. 'Rank does not eqaul good human beings' etc etc.

'At the same time, I do kind of wonder what affect anything Steven Seagal does or doesn't do could have on our own lives or our own aikido. He's just one man, one teacher (at least in the past), and we each have our own teachers, and our own lives. On a guess, I'd say there's plenty of "bad behavior" out there to go around, some of it my own. I don't even have to look for a teacher to find that... '

Right on. I just get really bored with people making statements like this. Cant they use the search function and just add their musings to one of the many seagal threads?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 07-25-2005, 01:02 PM   #45
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Well:

'Out of curriosity, what makes these people arrogant? Is it because they have made a value judgement about another person with little or no direct information at hand? '

In my opinion yes. But thats just my opinion. Maybe it just makes them ill informed and/or stupid. What I think really makes them arrogant is that they think they have the right to question what someone else is doing/has done with their budo/training/art/whatever. To base it on what they have seen portrayed in a movie is just the icing on the cake.
I guess my point was the similarities in say, me calling them arrogant, and them calling say, Seagal Sensei arrogant.

Quote:
' What is "relatively new" ? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? When does a person no longer qualify as "relatively new"? Is it their rank? At what rank would they then be entitled to an opinion without it being "arrogant"? '

I used the term relatively new because it is a loose term. There is no exact definition. You have people who have trained all their life saying they are begginners. You have people training for 6 months who think they are masters. Whatever. When I say relatively new to aikido, I mean about a few months. It seems that the majority of these statements about the moral integrety of steven Seagal are made by people who have been studying for a few months. I base this on what I have heard and seen. It doesnt make it the absolute.
I guess I was looking for a point at which I could say 'now I have a right to an opinion...'

Quote:
'At the same time, I do kind of wonder what affect anything Steven Seagal does or doesn't do could have on our own lives or our own aikido. He's just one man, one teacher (at least in the past), and we each have our own teachers, and our own lives. On a guess, I'd say there's plenty of "bad behavior" out there to go around, some of it my own. I don't even have to look for a teacher to find that... '

Right on. I just get really bored with people making statements like this. Cant they use the search function and just add their musings to one of the many seagal threads?
Actually, that is exactly what they did...this thread was started in 2002...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-25-2005, 11:48 PM   #46
Nick Simpson
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

'I guess my point was the similarities in say, me calling them arrogant, and them calling say, Seagal Sensei arrogant.'

I thought of that. Isnt judging someone in any way or form arrogant? I suppose it is, but sometimes it can be the correct judgement.

'I guess I was looking for a point at which I could say 'now I have a right to an opinion...'

Everyone has a right to an opinion. Just not all opinions are correct or intelligent or worth sharing.

'Actually, that is exactly what they did...this thread was started in 2002...'

Got me there fella, but you have to admit there have been SO many threads like this...

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 07-26-2005, 12:37 AM   #47
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

I wonder how people would react if anyone talked/wrote about any other seventh dan aikikai the way people write/talk about seagal sensei. I have never met the guy, I don´t necessarily agree with the way aikido is displayed in his films, but after all he *is* a seventh dan and deserves respect for that.

I would never ever dare talk about any of the yudansha I know in the way some people talk about seagal on numerous forums etc., not even about a shodan or nidan, let alone anyone beyond that, simply because they are higher graded than me and therefore deserve that I treat them with respect (by which I do not mean to imply that lower ranks do not deserve respect in return, but that is a different issue and doesn´t need to be explored here).

I wonder if the people who criticize seagal would also do that to his face or when one of his students was present.

Don´t mean to upset anyone with this, just my 2 (Euro ) cents.
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Old 07-26-2005, 02:19 AM   #48
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

I totally agree 100% Sonja...just because he's been in a few movies people think they know him and confuse onscreen with offscreen...and worse listen to Hollywood's little stories. That says far more about the critisizers than Mr Seagal imho.

I've never heard him say anything negative about anyone...not even his detractors. Any critism I've ever heard from him (assuming he has been correctly quoted) has always been positive and something people can take a lesson from. Quite simply he would not have survived in Japan and been able to run a dojo for such an extended period if his intentions were less than honorable. The fact any Japanese people studied under him is testiment to at least his superb abilities as a martial artist.

How many other gaijin 7th dan masters are there?...not many eh..
that alone demands true respect..because they are not given out for nothing..

regards


Lee
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Old 07-26-2005, 10:32 AM   #49
Roy
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

Seagal is awsome
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Old 07-26-2005, 02:41 PM   #50
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Re: Steven Seagal a true Aikidoka?

Hi Nick, you're right...there are sooo many of these out there, I too sometimes wonder why they post at all...you could probably spend a life time just reading all of it.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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