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Old 08-12-2009, 10:16 AM   #76
lbb
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Re: True Internal Strength

Mike, what does "suit" mean in this context?
 
Old 08-12-2009, 11:02 AM   #77
Mike Sigman
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Mike, what does "suit" mean in this context?
Hi Mary:

It means more or less the fascia-related structures and their coordination which are developed during breathing practices, proper practice of Aiki Taiso and qigongs, yogic postures done correctly (and knowledgeably)., etc. There's forces and then there's "suit" and together with the proper coordinations they make up most of the physical parts of what "ki" actually is.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 08-12-2009, 11:08 AM   #78
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: True Internal Strength

Thanks Mike. That is interesting.
 
Old 08-12-2009, 11:27 AM   #79
dps
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Thanks Mike. That is interesting.
Maybe this will help.

"Connective tissue, also known as "fascia", is one of the most ignored aspects of the human body by modern day medicine. Fascia holds and supports all body systems in place creating a soft tissue structural evironment for all of the systems to function together. It might be helpful to think of fascia in your own body as your "soft tissue body suit".

What exactly is Fascia and why should it be treated?

Fascia manifests as a dense connective tissue layered three dimensionally throughout the body from head to toe without interruption. It permeates muscles, makes up tendons and ligaments, and wraps and holds internal organs in place. Nerves and blood vessels run through fascia and are suspended in place throughout the body. Trauma and inflammatory responses can create restrictions in fascia of approximately 2,000 lbs per square inch that do not show up on any standard tests such as x-rays, MRI's, and CAT scans. This results in a dynamic where the body ends up squeezing itself. This internal straight jacket applies pressure to pain sensitive structures such as muscles, nerves, and blood vessels resulting in chronic pain, headaches, restricted range-of-motion, and disease. "

http://www.cedronsterling.com/Treatment_Approach

Another interesting topic along this line, Google 'biotensegrity'.

David

David
 
Old 08-12-2009, 12:07 PM   #80
dps
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Re: True Internal Strength

Another link to consider.

http://www.rmaxinternational.com/flowcoach/?p=320

I am not endorsing the product but consider the information presented.

David
 
Old 08-14-2009, 10:43 PM   #81
Buck
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Other points of interest for some:

http://www.geocities.com/tukylam/mojing.html
To find this “lump” and to be able to use it, we have to be very relaxed. If we use force which can make our whole body tense up, we will never find it. It will certainly help if we try to feel our body weight shifting forwards and backwards during zhan-zhuang. We usually feel the “outer” body weight which will slowly move inside our body to give us the feeling of a big lump.

Our internal strength is this big “lump” plus the movement of the whole body as described in the section “Mo-jing movements”. As for how internal strength works, see my article “How Does Hunyuanli Works?” also posted on this website.

CONCLUSION
Our internal strength is this big “lump” plus the movement of the whole body as described in the section “Mo-jing movements”. As for how internal strength works, see my article “How Does Hunyuanli Works?” also posted on this website.

How Does “Hun yuan li” Works?
http://www.geocities.com/tukylam/hunyuanli.html

STEPPING

“Mo cha bu” (ground rubbing or mud-walking) is the foundation of all Yiquan stepping. When doing Mo cha bu, we should not just move our foot forward or backward by itself as doing so has no strength. We should use our hips and our legs to move our foot. For example, we start from an “Embrace-a-Tree” posture with one foot in front and the other at the back with our body weight more on the back leg. Then we rotate our palms to make them face the ground with our fingers pointing the front. This is “Fu-an” ji ji zhuang (Hold and Push posture in a fighting stance).

Before we lift our back foot up and move it forward, we have to shift our body weight to the front foot, and sit properly on our front leg. We lift the top of our head up, make our front foot gently push into ground and raise our body slightly. That way our back foot is lifted off the ground. We now have to use our hips and our legs to move our back foot closer to our front foot before moving it out to the front and form a fighting stance. Now the front foot becomes the back foot. We will repeat the same process to move the back foot forward again. This is how “mo ca bu” should be done. (When we practice Mo cha bu going backwards, the movements are reverse.)

In Mo cha bu, the distance between our feet is only the width of our shoulders (just like when we stand in the “Embrace-a-Tree” posture). The distance can be much widened to become a big stepping exercise (twice as wide). The movements are exactly the same as in Mo cha bu except that the speed is faster and we move forward with our head leading the move and our back leg pushes our body forwards.

Another useful stepping is that we move our front foot one step forward and our back foot follows suit. Here we should remember to use our head to lead the move and our back leg to push our body forwards. With this kind of stepping, we can move in a straight line forward or move diagonally forward in a 45 degree angle. All the stepping should be trained in backward movements as well.

Stepping is good training to our legs. It complements shi-li movements in which we mainly use our hands. Of course, we also practice shi-li with stepping, which is much harder because we do two at the same time. But if we can do stepping (Zou bu) and shi-li well respectively, with some effort we can quickly combine the two. Stepping is useful in push-hands and sparring. Good stepping can confuse our opponents and can help us attack more efficiently. It can also help us step out of danger quickly.
In case, it may have not been noticed by some, but I didn't write this, I included the whole thing for those like me, who want to read the whole passage and not just part.
I have no agenda, or investment and alike stuff on what I am saying. It is the fact that I have faith in Aikido (O’Sensei’s Aikido, the original Aikido), if O'Sensei did under the conditions of his learning and instruction, he must have had have True Internal Strength as well.

I see allot of relation to and similarities Aikido in ways, shared stuff and all that. For those of a sort, I am not saying anything is exact in everyway, but rather illustrating common ground or similar properties recognized that are shared with Aikido and Chinese internal strength stuff, and exercises. I am not arguing that Chinese Internal arts aren't effective. I am suggesting (willing to explore it on a sophisticated level) that Aikido too has such internal stuff like the Chinese MA. But, it is used differently in Aikido. I am not saying there isn't any influence from the Chinese MA to Aikido. O'Sensei used the same polar opposites, like in the Chinese MA- Those relating details are not important here now. What is important, is knowing Aikido teaches both types of internal strength; the true internal strength of one's self, and that physical stuff of the Chinese MA.


And add this too from my other post:

Internal Strength Definitions And Elaborations
By Peter Lim Tian Tek
Below are some definitions from Chinese sources concerning Internal Strength. Whilst important, Internal Strength is not the sole purpose of Internal martial arts.

and

zhan-zhuang (is for body strengthing and conditioning done without a partner, by yourself. )


FWIW

Last edited by Buck : 08-14-2009 at 10:50 PM.
 
Old 08-15-2009, 05:11 AM   #82
Upyu
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I am not arguing that Chinese Internal arts aren't effective. I am suggesting (willing to explore it on a sophisticated level) that Aikido too has such internal stuff like the Chinese MA. But, it is used differently in Aikido.
That's definitely a quote that would come back to haunt you.
I mean, can you do the basics of these things yourself Buck?

For one thing, there's over...400-500 different "Chinese" martial styles...which is more like saying there's over 4-500 different approaches to developing this stuff. On first glance it looks like a lot, but in reality that figure is reduced down to several different approaches, with the other numbers just subtle variations on some major approaches/methods, or a mixture of several different approaches, each with varying results.

Saying "but our approach is special!," is fine, don't get me wrong...

but maybe it would be more illuminating if you told us what you think those differences in uses are?
 
Old 08-15-2009, 05:28 AM   #83
rob_liberti
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I am suggesting (willing to explore it on a sophisticated level) that Aikido too has such internal stuff like the Chinese MA. But, it is used differently in Aikido. I am not saying there isn't any influence from the Chinese MA to Aikido. O'Sensei used the same polar opposites, like in the Chinese MA- Those relating details are not important here now. What is important, is knowing Aikido teaches both types of internal strength; the true internal strength of one's self, and that physical stuff of the Chinese MA.
I'm mainly on board with this.
I have no idea if Chinese IMA have a "do least amount of damage" approach with a "do no harm" ideal. But I assume that is where Buck was going. I do not think he was suggesting the approach toward learning/developing IMA.

My belief is that not only does aikido with AIKI have both things:
-true internal fortitude, as well as the physical internal strength, but that also that you can develop true internal fortitude to a much deeper level by means of practicing the physical internal strength simply because it challenges you to stop trying to control things externally, and you can be much more successful at being more severely pressure tested on mainly levels.

Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
 
Old 08-15-2009, 05:47 AM   #84
eyrie
 
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote:
But, it is used differently in Aikido... What is important, is knowing Aikido teaches both types of internal strength; the true internal strength of one's self, and that physical stuff of the Chinese MA.
<delurk>
Well, Rob, not only is the kind of TRUE™ "internal strength" in Aikido totally different than the "other" internal strength, it is also used differently, BUT Aikido teaches BOTH - the TRUE™ stuff and THAT OTHER "physical" stuff....

Wait a minute, is it the same thing or different thing? Or is it simply a case of Truth™, like Beauty®*, being in the eye of the beholder?

*Just so I could use ™ and ® in the same sentence...
</delurk>

Back to lurking... oh what the heck... © for good measure.

Ignatius
 
Old 08-15-2009, 11:41 AM   #85
Buck
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Re: True Internal Strength

Now, true internal strength is a property of the individual that here relates to the stuff of the mind, mental strength in turn relates to character building.

Aikido creates an opportunity, I believe, for character building. Not everyone is able to or takes advantage of this opportunity to build character. Aikido an art, I am dedicated in the same way as others are dedicated and believing other things, like being on a sports team, believing in and being dedicated in something you create, build, or produce. An example, relating to me is, being in a band. Yes, there is a sense of pride I take in Aikido.

This sense of pride is a result of, having the opportunity like so many other fellow Aikidokas the opportunity to build character. I find there are many people in Aikido who focus strictly on being waza performance. That is all they are about when it comes to Aikido. They simply take Aikido at that level, and it is reflected upon all the other things in Aikido and the way they see it. Some of these people have a limited sense of pride when it comes to Aikido. There pride lays in an attitude that has really nothing to do with Aikido, but more with their own personal stuff, and reasons for taking Aikido. That is unfortunate, because when there is an absence of pride in anything, it become hallow, empty, disposable. It lacks a soul. IMO.

That is why character building is so important in Aikido and is stressed in so many worthwhile martial arts. It starts with true internal strength and without struggle to overcome something difficult, to see things in a positive way that maybe frustrating and seemingly impossible to achieve.

I am glad, despite the fact it is a mysterious conundrum, that O'Sensei felt it was important to put spirituality into Aikido. At best from what I understand generally a spirituality of positive character behaviors according to his times and his culture. Something that can be applied to our generation. I am generally speaking toward, of course, his views of violence, love, and peace.

It takes allot of internal strength not be violent, and we see that precept in allot of important and influential world philosophies and religions. This of course says peace also takes allot of internal strength. It is clear and obvious to me, that the majority of the world's societies recognize the value of peace over violence. That reflects upon the community level, and on the personal level. Most of us want to live in peace and not in violence, and often times that can be difficult, especially when we are faced with a situation where violence would seemly be easy to enact.

People get really emotional. They allow their emotions to over-ride and dictate reason and other parts of their personally. What I mean is people with quick-tempers, and has no internal strength to control it. People who have (adult tantrums) when frustrated, upset over-something, when they don't understand something, and stuff like that. All behavior we started with as children and haven't grown out of. Behavior that isn't or should be accepted in the dojo.

When in practice we have to discipline ourselves from being confrontational, quick-tempered, and belligerent and all that raw uncultured emotional stuff. Otherwise, if we don't discipline our emotions, our tongues, our thinking, and attitudes then there no learning, no harmony, and stuff. It becomes a violent and not a peaceful place where cooperation happens among people to reach their goals. Most of all, not having a pleasant environment to enjoy practice.

Here is our first step to true internal strength. Our first step in understanding the benefits of developing character that leads IMO to greater learning, greater knowledge and skill mentally and then physically universally in all things we do. And at least for me, that is what Aikido is about, true internal strength, not to be confused with the Chinese martial arts term of internal strength refering to the physical applications, and principles of the body in Chinese martial arts.
 
Old 08-15-2009, 07:11 PM   #86
eyrie
 
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Re: True Internal Strength

Any activity requiring a person to invest significant emotional, mental and/or physical effort *can* build character, but the activity itself doesn't necessarily cause one to develop character.

I know people who have great internal strength of the sort you refer to, yet, they have never done one iota of MA training. OTOH, I know of some people who have done MA, and they're not the sort of people I would generally want to associate with, nor let my children anywhere near.

Last edited by eyrie : 08-15-2009 at 07:17 PM.

Ignatius
 
Old 08-15-2009, 11:13 PM   #87
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: True Internal Strength

Character in aikido is defined by many by the following virtues/values.

Yuki = courage, valor, bravery
Jin = humanity, charity, benevolence
Gi = justice, righteousness, integrity
Rei = etiquette, courtesy, civility
Makoto = sincerity, honesty, reality
Chugi = loyalty, fidelity, devotion
Meiyo = honor, credit, glory; also reputation, dignity, prestige

Pretty much the same ones I learned in the Army and In the Boy Scouts as well.

 
Old 08-16-2009, 01:46 AM   #88
eyrie
 
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Re: True Internal Strength

Wait a sec, Kevin... aren't we confusing Confucian precepts of "virtue" and "values" with "character" - rather than attributes of "character"?

What if we substituted Roman Catholic dogma for those same "virtues and values", will we have priests with "better character"?

Ignatius
 
Old 08-16-2009, 09:02 AM   #89
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: True Internal Strength

well if you look at it instutionally, sure there are alot of folks that hide behind the virtures/values of an organization that are not actually practicing them.

For example, those Priest wtih "better character" might be violating several of them. Humanity, Honor, Truthfulness.

I think this is a big problem with institutions we have to over come. that is, in many cases simply by forming an affinity with the insitution many of us (all probably) some how feel our weaknesses and shortfalls are absolved by our membership, and/or we take shelter behind the concept of the institution. Throw on some robes, a hakama...whatever...and POOF! we gain character!

When you look at internalizing values, it means you can strip away the authority/dogma/structure of the institution and you can stand on your own two feet and BE those things.

That is hard to do.

 
Old 08-16-2009, 09:24 AM   #90
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: True Internal Strength

I can't believe this thread has gone so far. This is a well-thought out troll job done by a person who has no capacity to join conversations on 'internal strength (not the true one mind you) and who sorely wants attention from you guys.
 
Old 08-16-2009, 02:27 PM   #91
stan baker
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Re: True Internal Strength

Hi Phillip,
I think you are confusing character development with internal strength.
Who do you study aikido with.

stan
 
Old 08-16-2009, 07:55 PM   #92
eyrie
 
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
...confusing character development with internal strength.
My point. Precisely.

Ignatius
 
Old 08-17-2009, 12:20 AM   #93
mathewjgano
 
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Phillip,
I think you are confusing character development with internal strength.
Who do you study aikido with.

stan
Would it be better if he called it "inner strength" instead? I get the sense Phillip is simply saying that improved character leads to improved training in a general sense. "Internal strength" and "character" can be synonyms, can't they?

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 08-17-2009, 12:55 AM   #94
Upyu
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Would it be better if he called it "inner strength" instead? I get the sense Phillip is simply saying that improved character leads to improved training in a general sense. "Internal strength" and "character" can be synonyms, can't they?
Nah, because he went from originally talking about this:

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Of what I have seen as your solution to Aikido, has already been explained and demonstrated by so many, such as Erle Montaigue, Robert Chuckrow, Peter Ralston, Bruce Lee, and all the other on the Barn's and Noble book shelf, and YouTube. I think if a person takes the perspective of Tai chi, and Chinese martial art and applies it to Aikido , over time will they find, they really weren't missing anything at all in their Aikido.
Got called on it by others, including myself, asking to elaborate on how they could be the "same," and on top of that asking what he could do, to which he simply changed the subject to being... "oh but now I'm talking about a 'different' kind of inner strength."
 
Old 08-17-2009, 12:57 AM   #95
Upyu
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
I can't believe this thread has gone so far. This is a well-thought out troll job done by a person who has no capacity to join conversations on 'internal strength (not the true one mind you) and who sorely wants attention from you guys.
Lighten up, feeding the trolls can be fun once in a while.
Kinda like walkin down Center Road in Shibuya and fishing for gyaru
It's a guilty pleasure.
 
Old 08-17-2009, 02:05 AM   #96
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Who do you study aikido with.
(mouth moves ahead of overdubbed engrish)
...who your teacher?


OH NO HE DIDN'T!!!!

Stan, I can think of only one thing to say to you...

(mouth moves ahead of overdubbed engrish)
...your kung fu pretty good... who your teacher?

best in training to you and all...

PS - only racists can see racism here... oh, the irony of it.

.

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 08-17-2009 at 02:08 AM.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
 
Old 08-17-2009, 06:51 AM   #97
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Lighten up, feeding the trolls can be fun once in a while.
Kinda like walkin down Center Road in Shibuya and fishing for gyaru
It's a guilty pleasure.
Ha! You know me, trolls and gyaru and interchangeable. On the other hand, college onee-kei and filipino-american girlz...hmmmm.
 
Old 08-17-2009, 07:08 AM   #98
eyrie
 
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Re: True Internal Strength

LOL.... I wonder what else you Aunkai peeps get up to... gyaru, onee-kei, and nampa... no doubt? Do you actually have time to train between all of that?

Ignatius
 
Old 08-17-2009, 08:28 AM   #99
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
LOL.... I wonder what else you Aunkai peeps get up to... gyaru, onee-kei, and nampa... no doubt? Do you actually have time to train between all of that?
LOL. You forgot to add "cone-smashing". Put it this way, we're really young guys that are interested in ancient body conditioning methods that only grumpy old men are interested in .

"Japan is not an amusement park!"
 
Old 08-17-2009, 08:42 AM   #100
HL1978
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Re: True Internal Strength

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
LOL. You forgot to add "cone-smashing". Put it this way, we're really young guys that are interested in ancient body conditioning methods that only grumpy old men are interested in .

"Japan is not an amusement park!"
Lorel, the actual quote by my old roommate was, "Japan is not a theme park!" It is a small part of a much larger and at least from my viewpoint (and probably yours too) unintentionally funny conversation.

Last edited by HL1978 : 08-17-2009 at 08:51 AM.
 

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