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Old 08-10-2009, 12:49 PM   #26
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Okay fine, but I think it bares repeating that NOT fighting when you have no real option OF fighting, is something you could do without taking a day of class.

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 08-10-2009, 02:39 PM   #27
lbb
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Okay fine, but I think it bares repeating that NOT fighting when you have no real option OF fighting, is something you could do without taking a day of class.
And if your mother had wheels instead of legs, she'd be a bicycle. Nyuk nyuk nyuk!
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Old 08-10-2009, 02:54 PM   #28
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido, My Way

yo mamma's so ugly, her nickname is DAMB!
"Aikido, my way" - perfect.

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:46 PM   #29
Buck
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Re: Aikido, My Way

I could have went to a MMA gym, and studied that, and I do like to watch the fights like anyone else. Or a boxing gym to learn to seek revenge and defend myself. But I didn't because for one I am a short guy, small guy, and thus be at the mercy of all those larger and stronger than me, which was everyone.

I knew no matter how hard I tried, or good I got, never had a chance against those bigger and stronger than I. I knew I would always be at a disadvantage in those arts. Those place would not build my confidence and stuff like others. They would reinforce that I would always be the rabbit the dogs chased. I can't ever win, because I couldn't beat those guys, and thus I wouldn't be learning anything different then being bullied.

In an Aikido environment the playing field was different. I didn't have to deal without the same issue at like a MMA or Boxing gym. Muscle wasn't the rule, size wasn't the rule, I wouldn't always be on the losing end. Because of that it provided me the opportunity for confidence. The opportunity to look at things differently as a result of working on a waza with all different sorts of people, and all the other stuff I mentioned earlier in other posts. Here too, I had a better chance of developing internal strength because I wasn't always on the short end of the stick as the old saying goes.

Aikido is a great fit for me for that and many other reasons. It changed the way approached problems and people. It provided me with confidence and solutions that didn't have to be violent, or negative in nature. I made the right choice, the right choice for me.
And I know others like me in Aikido understand the difficulty of the situations of being bullied, and understand completely what I mean. I am a better person because of Aikido.
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Old 08-11-2009, 07:59 AM   #30
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
In an Aikido environment the playing field was different. I didn't have to deal without the same issue at like a MMA or Boxing gym. Muscle wasn't the rule, size wasn't the rule, I wouldn't always be on the losing end.
Yeah, lack of sparring will do that for ya...
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Old 08-11-2009, 11:54 AM   #31
d2l
 
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Seems to me, that this thread is going somewhere that Phil wasn't intending.
Looks like it's gotten into a p***ing contest of sorts. Those who agree with Phil, and those who say his approach is all WRONG.
We practice the "come get me anyway you can" scenarios. If it is not a committed attack, then one does not get put in a position to actually fight.
I know of a few Dojo's of whom their black belts don't even know how to fall or get thrown (hard) without getting hurt. Sure they may know all the fancy terminology, but if they chose that particular school for self defense, then they have been robbed. I am willing to bet there are some members of this site that know exactly what I'm talking about.
One thing that really gets on MY nerves, is the holier than thou, "If it's not Ueshiba's Aikido, then it is NOT Aikido" attitude. People seem to forget that Ueshiba wanted his students to experiment and come up with their own ways/ideas. So there really is NO such thing as Ueshiba's brand of Aikido. The fundamentals may be the same, but the beauty of Aikido is that you are "allowed" to try and create new things. And I don't mean the flavor of the week injections. The here today, and gone tomorrow kind.
Maybe Phil was not clear enough to some about his actual "combat" training. Or maybe he didn't feel it was necessary. Only he knows.
My reasons for taking up Aikido are the exact opposite.
I have been fighting all of my life. I grew up fighting in the streets. I've fought in the military. And I work in a prison, so it's a safe bet that I've fought in their too .
I actually hate fighting, but I am good at it. I suppose it's in my blood though. Maybe it's genetics?
I chose Aikido as a form of stress release. Sure I could've chosen another style. But there was something about how Aikido was presented to me that I was drawn to. Because of my past experiences, it was hard wired in my head that EVERYTHING was do or die. There was no room for diplomacy. When I first started Aikido, I was still hard wired in the do or die mode. When we do the "come get me anyway you can" scenarios, anything goes as long as no one gets hurt. If I get hit, kicked, elbowed, kneed, or caught in a choke, so be it. I have to find a way to survive.
One day during the learning of a new technique, I had thrown my Uke who was holding a knife. I was fully expecting him to give up the knife after being thrown, to which he did NOT. OOPS! So I start cranking on his wrist. He still did not let it go. DAMN, this is taking too long, I thought to myself. So, I hit the top of his hand hard enough for him to give up the weapon. When my Sensei saw this, he came unglued! It wasn't because of making something work that he was angry over. It was because we were supposed to be going slow and "soft" enough so that we could learn the technique more efficiently. And that I went all out, when at the time, it was not necessary. He slapped me in the back of the head and called me a big dumb gorilla and assured me if I ever went full force again I would be kicked out of his school. WOW! Just the threat of being kicked out hit me like a sledge hammer. I found something I really enjoyed, and was starting to learn from. I did not want to lose it.
He understood that this was due to my back round. It was not my intention to break something, it's just how I was programmed. But he needed for me to understand that there is a time and a place when going full force would be necessary, and when it wouldn't.
While my experiences are the opposite of Phil's, I can still somehow relate. I guess that's what makes Aikido so unique and special.

Sorry if it seemed like I hijacked your thread Phil. I totally get what you are trying to say.
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:23 PM   #32
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Just for the people reading this someday in the future. The topics of argument in this thread can be found in this other thread:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16607
Rob

old mcdojo had a form, aiki aiki do...
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Old 08-11-2009, 04:32 PM   #33
K. Abrams
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
And if your mother had wheels instead of legs, she'd be a bicycle. Nyuk nyuk nyuk!
Teehee! My grandmother used to say "...and if you had wheels, you'd be a trolley car!"
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Old 08-11-2009, 05:41 PM   #34
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Re: Aikido, My Way

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Anthony Stebbins wrote: View Post
I actually hate fighting, but I am good at it.
How do you know you're good at it Anthony?
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Old 08-12-2009, 01:26 AM   #35
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Re: Aikido, My Way

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Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
How do you know you're good at it Anthony?
I like the way you presented the question. Simple, and straight to the point. But a seemingly open ended question.
I say I am good because of my experiences. Even other people have said it. I am not a bragger, but I'm very well aware when something kicks off, I am someone you want on your side. I am aware of what I am capable of. And yes I have run the gauntlet many, many times. Whether I wanted to or not. And truth be told, I don't like being "good" at hurting somebody. This is not to be confused with arrogance. It is self awareness. I never said I was unbeatable, nor have I ever been beat. Some people are good at fighting. Others are good at fixing cars. Some people have a "talent" for particular things, and some have a "talent" for other things. How do you know if a U.F.C. fighter is good for instance?
How does anybody know they are good at something?
What are you good at, and how do you know?

Were you expecting me to answer with a fight record, or go into detail over a specific instance?
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Old 08-12-2009, 01:56 AM   #36
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Quote:
Anthony Stebbins wrote: View Post
I like the way you presented the question. Simple, and straight to the point. But a seemingly open ended question.
I say I am good because of my experiences. Even other people have said it. I am not a bragger, but I'm very well aware when something kicks off, I am someone you want on your side. I am aware of what I am capable of. And yes I have run the gauntlet many, many times. Whether I wanted to or not. And truth be told, I don't like being "good" at hurting somebody. This is not to be confused with arrogance. It is self awareness. I never said I was unbeatable, nor have I ever been beat. Some people are good at fighting. Others are good at fixing cars. Some people have a "talent" for particular things, and some have a "talent" for other things. How do you know if a U.F.C. fighter is good for instance?
How does anybody know they are good at something?
What are you good at, and how do you know?

Were you expecting me to answer with a fight record, or go into detail over a specific instance?
Personally, I'm not particularly good at anything. But to address your question; "How does anybody know they are good at something?"
To proclaim oneself good at something usually involves some type of vetting process.
What is that vetting process regarding you being good at fighting?
How many fights have you had?
What type of fights were they?
How many of them did you win?
How do you know you won those fights?
What was the context of those fights?
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:25 AM   #37
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Re: Aikido, My Way

When you are good enough to have the confidence to say you are you generally don't need to prove it. I have a very close friend who is also very very good at fighting. He has never proven it to me either but trust me I believe him. A person who truly is good at something owns it, they have no need to prove themselves. I have the same attitude in my horsemanship.

Like our OP I experienced similar issues of heavy bullying and other abuses. Unlike him I never got to the point of wanting revenge or wanting to be able to get back at the people hurting me. I just found ways to avoid or escape. But backed in a corner I have had to get physical a few times too. I learned though how to stop bullies before they got a hand on me again, simply through self carriage. Only had to leave marks on people once or twice to get the point across. And never beyond what was necessary to get them to leave me be. But because of that past I got so I was always on defensive mode. Never relaxed around people never trust anyone. Aikido is helping to make me a calmer person. Knowing that I have a way to protect myself that still allows me to do little to no harm to the aggressor has actually allowed me to be less on the defense. Although I'm not sure that will ever totally go away.

While my experience is also a bit different from the OP it is also similar and I can totally understand his point of view. I have to say I admire his courage to share that with us. It may help someone else down the road to know they are not alone and perhaps Aikido will help them as well.
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:51 AM   #38
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
When you are good enough to have the confidence to say you are you generally don't need to prove it.
Interesting. I've known any number of people who claimed to be good and something and turned out to be nothing of the sort.

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Like our OP I experienced similar issues of heavy bullying and other abuses. Unlike him I never got to the point of wanting revenge or wanting to be able to get back at the people hurting me. I just found ways to avoid or escape. But backed in a corner I have had to get physical a few times too. I learned though how to stop bullies before they got a hand on me again, simply through self carriage. Only had to leave marks on people once or twice to get the point across. And never beyond what was necessary to get them to leave me be. But because of that past I got so I was always on defensive mode. Never relaxed around people never trust anyone. Aikido is helping to make me a calmer person. Knowing that I have a way to protect myself that still allows me to do little to no harm to the aggressor has actually allowed me to be less on the defense. Although I'm not sure that will ever totally go away.
Bullying takes many forms, and I think that has a lot to do with how it affects its victims down the road, although perhaps it's also largely due to the victims' wiring or understanding of the situation. I got harassed for being different in grade school and junior high, and at times it got physical, but even while it was going on, I knew that it was limited in scope and duration. The important difference between me and the bullies was not that they were more powerful now, but that I was going places and they weren't. In high school, the bullies (the ones that made it that far) either cleaned up their act or found themselves increasingly marginalized and dropped off the radar scope. I don't know where any of the kids who harassed me in junior high are now, but I can honestly say that I never gave them another thought as soon as their very transient power had vanished. If I think back on bullying situations, they have no emotional charge for me whatsoever, for which I'm very grateful.

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
While my experience is also a bit different from the OP it is also similar and I can totally understand his point of view. I have to say I admire his courage to share that with us. It may help someone else down the road to know they are not alone and perhaps Aikido will help them as well.
Aikido, or some other form of empowerment -- which, arguably, is what happened with me. I had nothing special going for me but brains and a willingness to work, but I realized at a young age that those were the biggest advantages I could have, and that my life was going to turn out a lot better than the hangin-on-the-corner white trash who were giving me static. When you realize that a bully does not have the power to make your life miserable ("life" in the large sense), what was done to you in the past probably matters a lot less.
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:59 AM   #39
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Quote:
I don't know where any of the kids who harassed me in junior high are now, but I can honestly say that I never gave them another thought as soon as their very transient power had vanished. If I think back on bullying situations, they have no emotional charge for me whatsoever, for which I'm very grateful.
But isn't that just a part of growing up? I'm sure any number of us have had similar issues. Believe me, learning to avoid the regular bathrooms to avoid getting beaten up is no fun. But you get over it, and move on...

Sure, aikido can help, toughening up can help, but in the end...you just have to grow up. You can't live your life where everyone who disagrees with you is seen as attacking you. Not a fun way to live, in my opinion.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-12-2009, 10:23 AM   #40
Marc Abrams
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
But isn't that just a part of growing up? I'm sure any number of us have had similar issues. Believe me, learning to avoid the regular bathrooms to avoid getting beaten up is no fun. But you get over it, and move on...

Sure, aikido can help, toughening up can help, but in the end...you just have to grow up. You can't live your life where everyone who disagrees with you is seen as attacking you. Not a fun way to live, in my opinion.

Best,
Ron
Ron:

No truer words can be spoken. Unfortunately, if it were so easy, everyone would grow up. Unfortunately, many people do not "grow-up" and thereby provide an ample patient source for people in my profession. I would prefer it if people could easily grow up, so that I could spend more time in budo/bujutsu.

People try hard to do the best that they can with what they have at that point in time. We all struggle to deal with the present and leave the past as the past. Some are more successful than others; some need substantial help from others; some never succeed at that task.

The walls that people build to protect themselves lock themselves in, while locking others out. The "vulnerability" that people perceive in themselves in the lack of walls they erect allow others to victimize, while leaving one's self as a victim. Finding a dynamic balance that is in touch with the moment, while building upon a secure and trusting self that is a worthy goal indeed.

Marc Abrams
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Old 08-12-2009, 10:42 AM   #41
DH
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Though it may sound obvious
I think it is that balance; to put yourself out there, and be willing to take the loss and count it as all good that separates many people. Putting yourself out there can mean many things; physical, emotional, a thought, an idea or a work you truly value, on and on and have it critically appraised.
I've said many times that in a Budo context, grapplers (fighters in general) are some of the more well-balanced people I've met. They put themselves out there in a more complete sense (all-in) than many face in their budo careers. Teachers of a method or style do the same thing but in a different sense; they carry the burden of having to represent. The sense of "representing" can cause confusion about investment sometimes.
Problems can arise when teachers perceive emotional and financial investiture in a method or style as cause for defense, or feelings of inadequacy. Often that can lead to behavior or emotional turmoil that is difficult to resolve. Embracing change and seeing promise in it can be challenging, but from what I have seen; many times the results were worth the process.

In regards to bullying and avoidance and all the issues that surround it from our past to the present; our parents were usually right. The best solution is to face it head-on in all its manifestations and arrive at the other side. It's usually never as bad as we feared, and made us better people in the end.
Cheers
Dan
Edit: I think that was one of early promises of Budo; to face conflict and resolution and what it personally takes to achieve it. However, the promise was meant to embrace that sense of "all-in." Problems arise when broken people who never really went through that process are placed in authoritarian roles over other people with unresolved issues, and the whole thing becomes a self-reinforcing quagmire that sooner or later reaches a critical state.

Last edited by DH : 08-12-2009 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 08-12-2009, 10:47 AM   #42
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Quote:
It's usually never as bad as we feared, and made us better people in the end.
Jeez, I hope so...what a frakin waste of time if not...
B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:00 AM   #43
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
But isn't that just a part of growing up? I'm sure any number of us have had similar issues. Believe me, learning to avoid the regular bathrooms to avoid getting beaten up is no fun. But you get over it, and move on...
Well, I did, and I'm guessing you did too...but clearly a lot of people don't get over it quite so easily. It seems like you hear an awful lot of people for whom those memories of bullying still carry a big emotional charge decades later -- long after the bullies lost any power to harm them. I really don't know if this is the more common response to being bullied, or if getting over it is more common -- but you don't tend to hear about the people who get over it, I guess.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Sure, aikido can help, toughening up can help, but in the end...you just have to grow up. You can't live your life where everyone who disagrees with you is seen as attacking you. Not a fun way to live, in my opinion.
Maybe the disconnect is in not understanding when people don't have power over you. If you believe they do, then any dissonance may come across as a threat. The kid who bullied you in 8th grade has no power over you any more -- zero, zip, nada. Neither does the person sitting in front of a screen and disagreeing with you.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:07 PM   #44
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Re: Aikido, My Way

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
The walls that people build to protect themselves lock themselves in, while locking others out. The "vulnerability" that people perceive in themselves in the lack of walls they erect allow others to victimize, while leaving one's self as a victim. Finding a dynamic balance that is in touch with the moment, while building upon a secure and trusting self that is a worthy goal indeed.
QFT
I really like this. Thank you.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:42 PM   #45
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Where have some of you gone to school to be beaten up and tormented this bad? I mean, fights happened in my school, but not that often...

I guess one could say that things go on "behind the scenes", but I don't think it did.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 08-12-2009, 01:15 PM   #46
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Though it may sound obvious
I think it is that balance; to put yourself out there, and be willing to take the loss and count it as all good that separates many people. Putting yourself out there can mean many things; physical, emotional, a thought, an idea or a work you truly value, on and on and have it critically appraised.
Hi Dan,
I don't know what it says about me, but I didn't find it that obvious.
Thanks for the post.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Teachers of a method or style do the same thing but in a different sense; they carry the burden of having to represent. The sense of "representing" can cause confusion about investment sometimes.
Problems can arise when teachers perceive emotional and financial investiture in a method or style as cause for defense, ..
I wonder also about the very strong nature of investment and just how confusing this gets as religion and 'spirituality' enter implicitly into this.
Why and how and when the heck did spiritutality get to be a principal issue in TMA? It somehow is a natural evolution to the discussion; and I understand it to a degree; but something here still puzzles me. I don't know quite how to name it.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Edit: I think that was one of early promises of Budo; to face conflict and resolution and what it personally takes to achieve it. However, the promise was meant to embrace that sense of "all-in."
That is interesting. But what does this mean in light of the Aikido and the 'how it is practiced' that Ueshiba gave us? (e.g. There is no competition. "true victory is self victory"... but this is hard to measure and going 'all-in' here can just as easily *be* self-delusion). I also find this confusing. Perhaps the going 'all-in' is hidden in the shugyo that is spoken about. It is not bullshittable, to coin a term..

Not looking for answers...just your perspective.
Cheers,
Josh

p.s. 'ninjaqutie': i guess it was the 'school of hard knocks'. my high school was like that to a large degree, fwiw.

Last edited by thisisnotreal : 08-12-2009 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 08-12-2009, 01:32 PM   #47
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Re: Aikido, My Way

There are bullies and there are BULLIES. Lets just say I had plenty of experience with Randori long before I ever heard the word. And this happened over the span of a number of years at more than one school and not just at school but outside of school which was far worse because you often don't know what is around the next corner. Then one only has to mention things were pretty rough at home too. When you have no safe place to go its not so easy to just "grow up" and learn to deal with it. But still you do eventualy learn to deal with it. Some people get angry and get violent and some people simply withdraw and hide form the world. Some people try to ignore it and bury it but some day it will come out and force the person to deal with it one way or another.

Don't assume you know what someone has been through and don't assume that the damage they claim is not real or is blown out of proportion just because you have never seen just how ugly a person's life can be. I can tell you stories that would truly make you very ill. I'm sure I'm not alone.

The only reason I am posting on the subject is not to get sympathy form anyone. But because someone else reached out and helped me and I figure I should pass on the favor. People need to know that there are others out there who understand. And if you don't understand at least don't belittle them and make them feel even worse than they already do.

Quote:
Interesting. I've known any number of people who claimed to be good and something and turned out to be nothing of the sort.
Ive met those as well, They are usually very easy to spot. Again don't make assumptions. You can usually tell those who really are what they claim by the results or by their actions. I allow my work and reputation to speak for itself but that does not mean I won't also say it when I need to.

I have to wonder why it is people feel the need to challenge every statement just because it does not fit their personal ideals. We are simply here to share experiences. If you can't use it don't, move on. I really did think there were no attacks in aikido until I came to this forum. But then it was wrong of me to expect Aikidoka to be any differnet form the rest of the world.
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Old 08-12-2009, 02:40 PM   #48
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Aikido, My Way

..i just read that. i guess its' not honest.
i *am* looking for answers.
Cheers,
Josh
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:09 PM   #49
lbb
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
When you have no safe place to go its not so easy to just "grow up" and learn to deal with it.
I don't think Ron was suggesting that it was. I think he was talking about what we do with our history, and how we respond to bullies who no longer have any power to hurt us. There are a lot of people who were bullied or harassed as youngsters, and for whom those past events still have an incredibly powerful emotional charge. I think Ron was talking about those people, not people who are still being bullied.

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Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
I have to wonder why it is people feel the need to challenge every statement just because it does not fit their personal ideals. We are simply here to share experiences. If you can't use it don't, move on. I really did think there were no attacks in aikido until I came to this forum. But then it was wrong of me to expect Aikidoka to be any differnet form the rest of the world.
If you did expect that, I'd say it was probably wishful thinking, yes. As I've pointed out many times, despite all the claims by individual practitioners that aikido has made them better people, aikido is not moral education. Does your sensei typically impart a lecture on ethics as part of every class? I hope not, because he/she is probably not qualified to do so. I believe that aikido is one of thousands of practices that, if engaged in earnestly, can improve one's character -- but not because there's anything inherently magical about it. Rather, I believe that our characters are improved by the process of striving and failing and continuing to strive, and having to find patience with ourselves and others, and having to resolve differences in small ways in order to be able to continue training with a group of people, and getting up and going to the dojo when we could sit at home instead. We're improved by persisting the practice of something that demands something real of us, and rewards us sparingly (and sometimes not at all). But there's nothing magic about aikido: character is improved in the same way by the high school athlete who gets up an hour early to run every day of the year, by the woman who persists in maintaining a relationship with an increasingly fussy and cranky older relative, by the man who struggles to overcome his conviction that he lacks creativity as he teaches himself to paint. The magic is in the doing of the thing, not in the thing being done.

Beyond that, this is an internet forum. Ideas do get challenged here, although I'd caution against labeling everything that isn't unconditional agreement as a "challenge". As for why we're here, that varies: some are here to share experiences (which are not always the same), but others are here to get information, to ask questions, to discuss and dispute and hopefully refine their own thinking. One would hope that all of these are acceptable, because...they're gonna happen, whether they're acceptable or not.
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:37 PM   #50
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido, My Way

Hi Cherrie,

As a black guy growing up in a white neighborhood, who has been stoned, attacked by white and black gangs, who went to a high school were the lunch room was still segregated, who was almost stabbed with a screwdriver in high school (I could go on, but what's the point)...

I don't NOT recognize what someone else may be feeling. What I do say, is that that is not my life NOW...and that we ALL need to get past the past. Otherwise...life just sucks.

'Course, people are perfectly welcome to live a sucky life. It's their dime.

And as Mary said...this is a discussion board...so the statements we make may well be questioned. Nothing at all wrong with that in my book. In fact, I wouldn't come here if that didn't exist.

As to belittling anyone...I don't think anyone here did that. I could be wrong...but I don't think so. Some people belittle themselves with their own behavior. THAT I can't do one darn thing about. Believe me, I've tried.

Best,
Ron (I just re-read my posts to this thread...*I* certainly did not belittle anyone)

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 08-12-2009 at 04:41 PM.

Ron Tisdale
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