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Old 08-09-2009, 05:55 PM   #26
lbb
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Nah, they cry like heck, over react and everyone looks on us with shame thinking we are beating on them. .
Really, "everyone" thinks you're beating up on them? Your sensei and sempai don't understand what's going on? If true, that's a difficult situation, all right.
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Old 08-09-2009, 07:21 PM   #27
RED
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Really, "everyone" thinks you're beating up on them? Your sensei and sempai don't understand what's going on? If true, that's a difficult situation, all right.
Not true, that's an overstatement on my behalf. If you work out with this person, then you understand.So anyone who's pulled this move on this person gets it. But the over reaction makes everyone in proximity, and you get comments about being gentler... it's just a mild annoyance. People think I'm hurting them. Two people do this move actually, and it makes people close to me look like I'm hurting them, when I'm like not even touching them. They do make an embarrassing scene over it.

Sensei understands, most Sempai that work with them understand.

BTW: There are two people in particular that gives me problems. One is the same rank as me, the other is below me. I really can't do anything but try to work it out with the girl that's the same rank, or ignore it. As for the lower rank, my sampai is working to help me.
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:26 AM   #28
Lyle Bogin
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

If you plead for instruction, they may be compelled to show you what they are doing or what they expect. In order to prove that their teaching is correct, they will start to fall. Their weaknesses will be exposed as you study their way.

Slowly you can bring your own tricks into play.

Lose to win

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
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Old 08-10-2009, 12:28 PM   #29
RED
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

Quote:
Lyle Bogin wrote: View Post
If you plead for instruction, they may be compelled to show you what they are doing or what they expect. In order to prove that their teaching is correct, they will start to fall. Their weaknesses will be exposed as you study their way.

Slowly you can bring your own tricks into play.

Lose to win
lol, not a bad idea. Sometimes feeding the ego is the best way to have peace. And all I really want is a calm training day. They can think they are better than me all they want, I just don't want outbursts or people muscling me around to prove stuff. I'm not ending my career early to prove that some other guy is stronger than me.
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Old 08-10-2009, 12:40 PM   #30
RED
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

A confession: I'm guilty of holding on to a nage just to be a jerk. I was working with one of the two guys that's been giving me trouble lately. Back when he was training for 5th kyu I showed up to help him train for his test. He avoided working with me, he fell asleep on the couch, drank tea and talked on the phone to wait and see if one of our black belts that was there would help him instead of me I think. So I sat on my knees for like a half hour wasting my night. He kept saying "oh, i just wanna meditate today." But when a higher ranked student showed up he jumped at the chance to have this guy teach him 5th kyu.
Well anyways, the higher rank guy asked me to take uke while he instructed the annoy dude. Well anyways we were doing tenchi-nage and he kept ending the technique leaning over me like he was bowing. He thought he was doing great and started whipping me around fast, and one time my hands slipped off of him because he was really sweaty and I didn't get a grip before he started whipping about.
Immediately he signed and sort of yelled at me, "You know the uke is suppose to hang on right!?" My blood boiled.
So for the next go I hung on tight and when he finished bowing over me incorrectly I dropped to my knee and threw him off to my right side hard. He takes ukemi hesitantly to begin with so when he was surprised he just sort of went splat! He has been holding a grudge ever since I think. .

Last edited by RED : 08-10-2009 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 08-10-2009, 12:45 PM   #31
RED
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

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Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
i is a turn me use in my dojo, so I use it. .
"term we use.." lol sorry,, see typos abound.
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:04 PM   #32
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

Every dojo seems to have these people. Usually someone has to put them in their place. It annoys me as well. I am a new nobody where I am (been training 5 months) and at one point a senior student came back from a hiatus. This person was quite rough with me and appeared to be putting me in my place. Their hard throws didn't effect me any though since I am used to throws. In the end, a couple people told me that they thought that person was trying to put me in my place and show they were better then me. No problem... they ARE better then me! The part I didn't get was that I did nothing to challenge this person except for maybe showing up for class. For a while, every stretch I did, they did as well. It annoyed me, but I didn't let it get the best of me. Now we are sort of..... frenemeys if you will.

Oh, I didn't mention that this person is 3rd kyu and I am 6th. Again... what is there to be intimidated or feel threatened by. HAHA.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:40 PM   #33
aikidoc
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

In my experience, these people don't stick around because they can't be taught. As my friend Gary Chase says, they've got it all "knowed up". Generally, they are flashes in the pan and move on either because they know it all or because they realize they acted like they knew it all and when the realize how stupid they are they want to save face.
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Old 08-10-2009, 07:29 PM   #34
lbb
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
In my experience, these people don't stick around because they can't be taught. As my friend Gary Chase says, they've got it all "knowed up". Generally, they are flashes in the pan and move on either because they know it all or because they realize they acted like they knew it all and when the realize how stupid they are they want to save face.
...leaving those of us who really do know it all to remain behind and feel smug about it all.

Sometimes it's very easy to spot the flaws in others that we ourselves manifest, perhaps in different ways. That being the case, dwelling on others' flaws should probably be taken as a warning sign.
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Old 08-10-2009, 08:09 PM   #35
RED
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

I think everyone has a lesson to teach us. It just isn't as apparent what that lesson is when the person is being annoying.
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Old 08-11-2009, 03:36 AM   #36
Walter Martindale
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
(snip)

BTW: when someone refuses to let go when thrown quite hard I've yet to fall with them... I'm luckily very low centered and naturally low to the ground, and I had an instructor that held on to me when I threw him to teach me good posture and good stance since I was a 6th kyu, so I've yet to land on the buggers. (I don't trust their ability to get out of the way if I fell on them, which makes me think it is a stupid move on their part even more so.)
However, the person that likes to hold on to me just for the sake of being a difficult uke hurt her shoulder. I had good posture and finished low, she was still holding on. My body didn't give to the force but her shoulder did. I really didn't consider her trying to "prove" she was more skilled was worth sitting out to her or anyone else. It just frustrates me. I wanna scream "What is the problem? ! Just train and stop thinking your anything you're not, enjoy yourself and don't take it so seriously. I mean seriously, at 5th kyu you aren't going to impress anyone anyways, so cut it out!" I mean lol, I sure the heck don't impress anyone, I'm not going to break my neck trying.
It COULD be that the person holding on during ukemi might not be that confident with the ukemi? Not being there it's hard to say, but if the person is a 5th kyu, depending on the technique and the needed ukemi, this person might just be trying not to land hard.

I'm a shodan in judo and aikido (which means I'm just ready to start understanding both - maybe) and sometimes I end up in a position as uke, not knowing what the heck's happening to me. That's a lot more rare than it was when I was go-kyu, but if I wasn't getting the occasional dose of confusion at aikido, I'd probably quit.
Walter
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Old 08-11-2009, 06:57 AM   #37
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
Every dojo seems to have these people. Usually someone has to put them in their place. It annoys me as well. I am a new nobody where I am (been training 5 months) and at one point a senior student came back from a hiatus. This person was quite rough with me and appeared to be putting me in my place. Their hard throws didn't effect me any though since I am used to throws. In the end, a couple people told me that they thought that person was trying to put me in my place and show they were better then me. No problem... they ARE better then me! The part I didn't get was that I did nothing to challenge this person except for maybe showing up for class. For a while, every stretch I did, they did as well. It annoyed me, but I didn't let it get the best of me. Now we are sort of..... frenemeys if you will.

Oh, I didn't mention that this person is 3rd kyu and I am 6th. Again... what is there to be intimidated or feel threatened by. HAHA.
Some people just love to show how big their peni... I mean ego is. Just nod and smile, and if he is too rough, tell him you don't want to train with him anymore. You could also suddenly exploit an opening in his technique and throw him instead. That just might show him that he is not nearly as good as he thinks.
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Old 08-11-2009, 08:42 AM   #38
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

We used to jokingly refer to these blokes as "14th kyu's"... now of course I realize the joke was partly on me; but it's still a good joke! "5th kyu shihan"... I like that

Gernot Hassenpflug
Aunkai, Tokyo, Japan
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Old 08-11-2009, 09:09 AM   #39
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post

Sometimes it's very easy to spot the flaws in others that we ourselves manifest, perhaps in different ways. That being the case, dwelling on others' flaws should probably be taken as a warning sign.
Hey! I resemble that comment.
;(
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Old 08-11-2009, 11:31 AM   #40
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

I can handle the throws this person does and I am not going to avoid working with them. I think that would just make the problem worse. I am civil and work with them when neccessary. I must admit though, they were surprised when they threw me into a breakfall and I landed just fine. They said "You can do breakfalls!?!" I merely shrugged and said "I guess so." HAHA! I never did tell this person about my 8 plus years of being thrown around in aikijitsu. Sometimes you just have to have a secret to yourself...

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 08-11-2009, 07:21 PM   #41
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
I can handle the throws this person does and I am not going to avoid working with them. I think that would just make the problem worse. I am civil and work with them when neccessary. I must admit though, they were surprised when they threw me into a breakfall and I landed just fine. They said "You can do breakfalls!?!" I merely shrugged and said "I guess so." HAHA! I never did tell this person about my 8 plus years of being thrown around in aikijitsu. Sometimes you just have to have a secret to yourself...
Our school teaches these silent/soft break falls. Have you had any experience in that? I'm not sure exactly what aikijitsu might teah in regard to soft ukemi.
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:51 AM   #42
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

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Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
My mantra in life is: always be open to learn from anyone.
Everyone has something to teach, even if it's what not to do.
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Old 10-17-2009, 01:24 PM   #43
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

LOL. There always seems to be one in every dojo. I like the use of a correction switch. lol

Lyle Laizure
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Old 10-17-2009, 03:45 PM   #44
heathererandolph
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

Well, if you offered to help that guy train for his test and he just waited around to see if anyone else showed up, that seems pretty rude to me. I don't think that students should be fighting each other! It was probably not too good an idea to join in on helping him once someone else showed up, since you were already teed off at him for ignoring you earlier and were sure to take the next thing he did the wrong way! Also, if he didn't want you to help because he doesn't like you, things were not bound to improve. There could have been a part of you that wanted to prove to him that you really are a worth partner for him. The thing is, his feelings have nothing to do with your skill as a martial artist. He could be an idiot, who knows? I think it is important to somehow keep the peace within yourself and to not let these things affect you as much. It is usually difficult to say if an action in Aikido is meant to be rude or meant personally. If that guy didn't want to work with you, not knowing you but thinking of a student in my class, I don't like to see that kind of behavior. It could possibly be sexism. I think you have to look at what you can and cannot do. You can try hard to establish your credibility. I think as a woman that you have to be extra sure that people see you as a serious student. Arguing with your fiancee during class is not a great idea. You don't want to call attention to the fact that you are in a relationship during class because people will think you are only here because of him. Sorry to tell you this but it is the truth. What we are learning in Aikido is to remain calm under stressful situations. I think you could work on not immediately taking something as a criticism, EVEN if it could be taken as one. Just try to stay out of that mindset. You can't do much about such people, I'm sure they will continue to be a pain. I don't suggest avoiding but what is a little more dignified is to try to pick them for techniques where they will be less of a pain.
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Old 10-18-2009, 02:00 AM   #45
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

I have a wonderful instructor once say that when this sort of things occurs during class, in the dojo, you simply must bow to the person.

Bow to them, apologize for wasting their time and ask them to find a training partner who would be more appropriate as they surely are far too good for you to train with. Then walk away and join in with someone else.

The instructor will understand; your new partners will understand; and the 5th kyu Shihan will be standing in their own feces (pardon my vulgarity, I tried cleaning it up).

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Ryan Riggs
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Old 10-18-2009, 07:04 AM   #46
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

Quote:
Ryan Riggs wrote: View Post
I have a wonderful instructor once say that when this sort of things occurs during class, in the dojo, you simply must bow to the person.

Bow to them, apologize for wasting their time and ask them to find a training partner who would be more appropriate as they surely are far too good for you to train with. Then walk away and join in with someone else.

The instructor will understand; your new partners will understand; and the 5th kyu Shihan will be standing in their own feces (pardon my vulgarity, I tried cleaning it up).
That's countering arrogance with more arrogance. Works counterproductive in both ways. Just "break" a technique of the "shihan", so he sees that he's not exactly doing it right. Should be enough of a shock to make him stop doing that.
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:21 PM   #47
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Our school teaches these silent/soft break falls. Have you had any experience in that? I'm not sure exactly what aikijitsu might teah in regard to soft ukemi.
I don't really know what you mean, so I guess we don't. HAHA. In my aikido dojo, usually our falls are quiet and smooth, but our breakfalls are fairly loud because of slapping. In my aikijitsu dojo all of our falls had to be loud. If they weren't, they were not correct. We had to slap loud and hard and a loud kiah better accompany it.

Needless to say, after much practice, I have gotten away from the harder falls and slaps and more to the softer landings. HOWEVER, my slaps still are pretty loud when I use them. People usually ask if I am okay after those throws. I guess my slaps make it seem as if I am slamming into the mat. Sensei and a few of the yudansha are used to it now and now longer show any concern, but some of the others still do. I just hop up off the mat and say I am fine and grab them again.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 10-23-2009, 12:53 AM   #48
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
That's countering arrogance with more arrogance. Works counterproductive in both ways. Just "break" a technique of the "shihan", so he sees that he's not exactly doing it right. Should be enough of a shock to make him stop doing that.
I would respectfully disagree.

It is not arrogant to humbly walk away from a situation.

"Breaking" the bad technique of a know-it-all is not my place in a dojo, nor should it be, unless I am the instructor or am acting in the role of a Sempai.

I'll leave it to the readers of this forum to judge for themselves if bowing away from a false confrontation show more arrogance than breaking a technique to "shock" him in order to make him stop doing that

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Old 10-23-2009, 01:56 AM   #49
ze'ev erlich
 
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apply more PAIN?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
As Peter R. wrote in one of similar topics, there the only one, definitive solution:

1. PAIN
2. if it is not working, apply more PAIN.
Dear Szczepan Janczuk,
I want to believe that what you wrote here was a joke. I don't think that it is the student's "job" to inflict pain in order to teach each other proper training methods. It is the instructor and senior's job to take care of this issue and explain the reason and common sense of the role of uke in Aikido.

By inflicting pain to a "5th kyu shihan" you will cause no more than injuries and negative relationship in the dojo.

Power games between students are against our dojo's ettiquete.

Ze'ev from Masatake Dojo Rehovot
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Israeli Aikido Organiziation (Aikikai)

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Old 01-28-2010, 11:28 AM   #50
Jay Gatsby
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Re: 5th Kyu Shihan

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but I've run into a similar situation in my current dojo and would appreciate some advice.

We recently had a woman join us from the West Coast where she had studied under a 6th dan in AAA up to blue belt with a black stripe (3rd kyu). If I recall correctly, she hadn't practiced Aikido in a few years before coming to our dojo. Regardless, our sensei allowed her (as a matter of courtesy) to continue wearing her belt in our dojo (to the best of my knowledge, he never tested her on the techniques up to her level) before doing so (he is always on the lookout for higher-ranking belts to add to our young dojo, so I presume he took her at her word). I have three years in an ASU dojo (up to 3rd kyu) from 15 years ago and another 1.5 years in my current AAA dojo.

Let me start out by saying that I will be the first to admit that my technique can use refinement. However, in working with the aforementioned blue belt with a black stripe, I've found that her techniques are sloppy and ineffective (even the most basic ones). When they don't work on me (I don't resist out of spite, but I am muscular and it is hard to take my balance if the technique isn't executed properly), she gets frustrated and accuses me of being difficult. When I point out during a technique that her arm, foot or body is out of position, she gets annoyed and insists that she has nothing to learn from me. In particular, she has said on more than one occasion that I shouldn't be "teaching" her anything because she is the senior student, and if our sensei wanted me to teach her anything he would have said so. The same applies to situations where she has executed a technique, but differently than our sensei (and his sensei when he is in town for a seminar) wants to see it at test time. I calmly try to explain the differences, but she won't listen and insists that because her former 6th dan instructor taught it her way, she's right and I'm wrong. In a nutshell, she seems to be elevating form (senpai/kohai) over substance. From my perspective, neither her technique nor her attitude are emblematic of being senpai.

Needless to say, I'm not the only person in our dojo to have noticed this sort of attitude. However, I am the only one who has tried to inculcate her into the way our sensei likes techniques to be executed. Not to sound arrogant myself, but at least two people in my dojo who are one rank above me often rely on me to show them how a particular technique is done, and pretty much every white belt in my immediate vicinity tries to pair up with me when it's time to practice a technique.

I could adopt the attitude some in this thread have espoused, namely, let her do poor technique on me without comment or avoid her altogether. Neither is a tenable solution in my mind.

**EDIT**

There is more to the foregoing story, but to avoid identifying the guilty party, I kept such details out of my post. I did speak with my sensei about it after practice. He noticed a bit of her behavior, but when I filled him in on the rest of it, he seemed to understand the source of my frustration. Perhaps he will watch her carefully from now on, and if her attitude continues, he will do something about it.

Last edited by Jay Gatsby : 01-28-2010 at 11:37 AM.
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