5th Kyu Shihan

I remember my Sensei and Sampai complaining about something they called "5th kyu Shihan". I never understood what they were making fun of, and what they were frustrated with until recently.

I recently have been blasted with the attitude, eye rolls. I've had newly belted uke that purposely refuses to take ukemi than scoffs at your technique when an instructed technique fails. Sometimes when they take the wrong ukemi to get out of the technique I adjust my technique, but some of these uke create a big scene either about how stupid little me did the wrong technique, or about how the unexpected technique hurt them. (it doesn't hurt anything but their pride.) I'm getting corrected and told to do things obviously not as instructed. I've had my instruction refused, my time wasted, disrespected, scoffed at...--

I've pretty much tried to avoid training with particular people until their attitudes straighten out. I'm sure it won't be forever. I mean know I've been a pain for my fiance' to work with at times, but that's primarily because I enjoy arguing with him <3 <3 but I argue with him, not purposely take bad ukemi just so I can scoff and useit as an excuse to instruct my Sempai fiance'.

But some of the stuff people are doing is just disrespectful, sometimes dangerous, and belligerent.

I'm trying not to have an issue with pride, to just brush it off and take a lesson in patience.

BTW: this isn't a problem for my dojo, just a problem for me with a few and select individuals. lol My dojo doesn't have a slue of people like this. A person or two pops up every now and then until they get their pride shot and they return in line.

Yes, this is a problem that comes up from time to time. You could try teaching them that, for basic practice, their job is to provide a clean attack and clean energy so that you can both work on that technique. You are very likely doing that for them and could no doubt 'mess' with them in all the same ways - you could show them that, and then show them good ukemi. And if they still don't get it, then change what you are doing and throw them some other way.

For kihon waza, uke and nage have an agreement on what will happen. It is not freestyle or sparing. If they make a scene about you changing technique on them, then they are trying to make you stick to this practice agreement while violating it themselves. They cannot have it both ways.

Hopefully they will see that being belligerent on the mat is not what aikido is about. If not, they probably won't stick around very long.

Maggie Schill wrote: I remember my Sensei and Sampai complaining about something they called "5th kyu Shihan". I never understood what they were making fun of, and what they were frustrated with until recently.

I guess this falls under the "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" category. I can relate: I have a little knowledge, and I often try to make it do more than it can...AND I'm 5th kyu! Crap!
Anyhoo, my response when I find myself in the situation you descibed is to play dumb and ask sensei or one of my sempai to "correct" my technique. Usually there was correction for both, but sometimes my partner was also shown that I knew what I was doing (enough for the time being anyway). It's what we call a teachable moment in the edumacation field.

Garth Jones wrote: For kihon waza, uke and nage have an agreement on what will happen. It is not freestyle or sparing

And hopefully the instructor is stressing this - the proper role of uke is to give the called for attack including staying alive with it and not rooting and freezing out nage.

Besides asking the instructor for help with my own technique, sometimes I've put on a very confused, puzzled look (ok, sometimes I don't have to pretend... :-) ) and asked, "excuse me, sensei, what is the proper ukemi for this?"

My old sensei used to have a few sayings:
1.) Nothing is more dangerous then a green belt (because they they they know everything).
2.) If you need to know something, just ask a green belt.

Perhaps this syndrome seems to aflict 5th kyus in this style instead.

Yeah, I know who you are talking about, Red. A lot of what she does and the reasons for her poor ukime is because she does not want to be put in a joint lock. She did the same thing with me on that shihonage from iremi yokomen entrance. She lectured Mike (the instructor at the time) on how to do it properly, which he found amusing. I have personally determined that it will not bother me. These things have a way of working themselves out.

Ryan Szesny wrote: These things have a way of working themselves out.

...hopefully the condition this poor person is afflicted with can be treated with one large single treatment of "back-of-head-being-bounced-off-the-mat".

Normally cures most cases of control, verbal flatulence, and ego.
Results may vary. Consult your sensei if more than one treatment is required.

As Peter R. wrote in one of similar topics, there the only one, definitive solution:

1. PAIN
2. if it is not working, apply more PAIN.

Hi Maggie,

You are under no obligation to train with this person if she is behaving in such a way!

Avoid pairing up with her, get up as soon as possible after the demonstration and grab somebody else

It may also be worthwhile having a quiet word with Sensei about the problems you are having training with this person, and ask for their advice on how to handle it.

Let us know how you get on,

Ruth

I ditto what Szczepan and Peter R. said.

PAIN

Is this person is a super 5th kyu, he/she has super ukemi skills....

I wonder if the person involved reading this thread (your dojo is posted under your name) will help or hurt the situation.

No issues here...just sayin...

Best,
Ron

Maggie Schill wrote: I remember my Sensei and Sampai complaining about something they called "5th kyu Shihan".... newly belted uke that purposely refuses to take ukemi than scoffs at your technique...

i think every dojo has come across that phenomenon... here we call them 'bluedansha.'

at 4th and 3rd kyu (blue belt), all of a sudden we'll get these students with the urge to race away from senior students and teach everything they know to their 'kohai'... in one class. if it doesn't go unchecked, we get shihan all the way up through ikkyu. that's not good.

usually at 5th kyu, i'll tell the 'newly belted' students that just because they've past their first test, it doesn't mean they've mastered any of the techniques they've just performed.

the best piece of advice is to tell them, nicely, or maybe not, 'shut up and practice'

Maggie Schill wrote: I've had my instruction refused, my time wasted, disrespected, scoffed at...-- I've pretty much tried to avoid training with particular people until their attitudes straighten out. I'm sure it won't be forever. I mean know I've been a pain for my fiance' to work with at times, but that's primarily because I enjoy arguing with him <3 <3 but I argue with him, not purposely take bad ukemi just so I can scoff and useit as an excuse to instruct my Sempai fiance'. .

Red, I think a lot of people have had that problem. my response is to work with these people whenever they are next to me and to offer no suggestions as to what they are doing. It is sometimes hard to deal with a lower rank trying to correct your every move, but remember they are excited that they feel they know something and that is how they share, yep, there is ego involved.

When in that situation I work on doing the technique to the best of my ability, if they are taking bad ukemi usually the instructor will notice and correct them.

The best thing to do is to do your own Aikido to the best of your ability. Invite them into your world with your attitude and positive nature and often you will see that they change on their own.

Cheers,
Jeff

+1 to Jeff's suggetion. It may be hard at first but if you can get some positive training out of anything no matter how negative they may appear, you would be a better person for it.

My 2 cents

Ron Tisdale wrote: I wonder if the person involved reading this thread (your dojo is posted under your name) will help or hurt the situation. No issues here...just sayin...

Man, do great minds think alike, or what?

When I first started into the complaint, I looked immediately at "Dojo," and sure enough...

(Hey, Ron!)

In our Dojo this usualy happens around 3rd kyu. The standard remedy is the appropriate application of atemi.
I have also had 1st kyu's try to show me up whilst I was teaching a class and using them for Ukemi...

Nick Pittson wrote: ...hopefully the condition this poor person is afflicted with can be treated with one large single treatment of "back-of-head-being-bounced-off-the-mat". Normally cures most cases of control, verbal flatulence, and ego. Results may vary. Consult your sensei if more than one treatment is required.

Nah, they cry like heck, over react and everyone looks on us with shame thinking we are beating on them. A case of they like to dish but won't take correction, especially physical correction. Their ukemi needs help, they fear falling, so they over react to taking unexpected movements.

Jeff Black wrote: Red, I think a lot of people have had that problem. my response is to work with these people whenever they are next to me and to offer no suggestions as to what they are doing. It is sometimes hard to deal with a lower rank trying to correct your every move, but remember they are excited that they feel they know something and that is how they share, yep, there is ego involved. When in that situation I work on doing the technique to the best of my ability, if they are taking bad ukemi usually the instructor will notice and correct them. The best thing to do is to do your own Aikido to the best of your ability. Invite them into your world with your attitude and positive nature and often you will see that they change on their own. Cheers, Jeff

Your right, getting bent out of shape is playing their game as well. I can't get my ego burnt if I don't have one.
We have an instructor that is an infectious disease specialist. One day one of the 5th kyus actually corrected him wrongly while he was teaching them.. he just shrugged,laughed and said "whatever man, go with it." He sees peoples skin rot off everyday, he doesn't take anything to seriously, let alone himself. He's a good model for how to go with it I guess.

I think my 5th kyu shihan ripping my hakama with their man handling might of also got me. They put more effort in defeating me when I'm a nage than they do towards the ukemi.
And frankly they are starting to do nage techniques so screwy I'm getting tweeked joints and fallen on etc etc. ouchy.

Maggie Schill wrote: Your right, getting bent out of shape is playing their game as well. I can't get my ego burnt if I don't have one. We have an instructor that is an infectious disease specialist. One day one of the 5th kyus actually corrected him wrongly while he was teaching them.. he just shrugged,laughed and said "whatever man, go with it." He sees peoples skin rot off everyday, he doesn't take anything to seriously, let alone himself. He's a good model for how to go with it I guess.

I can not delete this post due to the way this forum works so I must explain it. I don't mean to say that the instructor didn't have complete control over his class, because he does and all his students respect him, even the more difficult ones. I was just saying he isn't one that's either quick to anger, or one that takes the ill-attitudes of his students personally. He maintains control over himself in order to apply his discipline and lessons to his students.

Ashley Carter wrote: My old sensei used to have a few sayings: 1.) Nothing is more dangerous then a green belt (because they they they know everything). 2.) If you need to know something, just ask a green belt.

Doh! Im green belt. lol

Really is a shame though that this kind of attitude is going on in the dojo. It seems that perhaps this is case where the Sensei can help to guide things back on track.

I think this kind of attitude pops up when people havent grasped the full concept of aikido and make it to be something that its not... [not that I know it all]

There is a tendency for people to think that Aikido techniques are one size fits all, and from my experience it really depends on the situation as to what technique best fits the situation... and resisting a certain technique only opens the door for another. [thus you get what you described where they are upset when you try something different - just some 'foggy' thinking apparently going on.]

Anyway, this does seem like something that perhaps the Sensei can clarify... also this can be turned into a good practice of letting go of the ego, as something like this really can light it up as it were.

Peace

dAlen

I just realized I have a lot of they's in my post that was quoted. HAHA. I know I didn't type that many they's.... but I did edit the post. Weird. Now I look like a studder typist. HAHA.

Has your sensei ever used them as uke for demonstrating a technique? That may help. Our sensei or sempai also has us do the technique if they are trying to show what uke should do. This may help in two ways. If your sensei isn't an overly compliant uke, and this person's technique isn't so good, then they will be standing there in front of the class trying to figure it out. OR, if they are watching and someone else is doing the technique, if the focus is brought onto the ukemi, maybe... MAYBE something will click for them.

Not all students should be subjected to the this route of head deflation, but it tends to work on most of the students (at least in my old dojo). I haven't seen this problem in my new dojo.

P.S. Dalen, as Kermit the frog always said "It's not easy being green."

Well my Sampai has been very sensitive over this issue, and has been allowing me to do things and assist me in being more assertive. I've been aided in establishing whatever amount of authority I should have.

Jeff Black wrote: Red, I think a lot of people have had that problem. my response is to work with these people whenever they are next to me and to offer no suggestions as to what they are doing. It is sometimes hard to deal with a lower rank trying to correct your every move, but remember they are excited that they feel they know something and that is how they share, yep, there is ego involved. When in that situation I work on doing the technique to the best of my ability, if they are taking bad ukemi usually the instructor will notice and correct them. The best thing to do is to do your own Aikido to the best of your ability. Invite them into your world with your attitude and positive nature and often you will see that they change on their own. Cheers, Jeff

Being corrected by somebody of lower rank is only hard to take if you give rank too much importance. It's not because you are, for example, a sho-or nidan, and your partner is a 5th or 4th kyu, that he or she will not have any good ideas.

My mantra in life is: always be open to learn from anyone.

Maarten De Queecker wrote: Being corrected by somebody of lower rank is only hard to take if you give rank too much importance.

...or if there's some other value being impeded upon, such as the open-mindedness you also described.