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Old 08-04-2009, 10:39 AM   #1
kokyu
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Kick and Roll?

At one stage of my training, I was taught to kick off when doing forward rolls... as this would add to the momentum and allow me to come up more quickly

However, this has resulted in a habit of kicking even when thrown by someone... the effect is not so bad when it's a forward roll, but it doesn't seem to help in breakfalls, because the kick causes your body to spin faster, hence causing a much harder landing on the mat

Would love to hear what others think about kicks and rolls/breakfalls

Thanks
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Old 08-04-2009, 10:56 AM   #2
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: Kick and Roll?

I have pushed off to get better momentum in a roll as well, but I do not do this when I am being thrown unless I have to roll over nage. Usually when I am thrown, I relax the one leg and it naturally lifts up and I go into a roll.

Perhaps you could try standing and just lefting the one leg and roll when you feel like you have to. If you aren't having a hard time with breakfalls, I don't really see the problem. If however, you don't like breakfalls or are trying to work on "soft breakfalls" I see where you are coming from.

Best of luck and I am looking forward to reading others responses.

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Old 08-04-2009, 12:25 PM   #3
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Re: Kick and Roll?

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote: View Post
At one stage of my training, I was taught to kick off when doing forward rolls... as this would add to the momentum and allow me to come up more quickly

However, this has resulted in a habit of kicking even when thrown by someone... the effect is not so bad when it's a forward roll, but it doesn't seem to help in breakfalls, because the kick causes your body to spin faster, hence causing a much harder landing on the mat

Would love to hear what others think about kicks and rolls/breakfalls

Thanks
My sense of breakfalls is that if you have to push off with your feet, you're not very connected to nage. I still push off a lot, but I've noticed in those rare moments where everything felt great, I didn't really have to do much at all; it seemed to happen by itself. My "trick" for repeating this is to really focus on how I'm engaging my center: I "keep one point" and feel from it outward through my connection with nage. Sometimes it works better than others. Another "trick" that's worked for me is to try and feel my whole body at once while applying the attack as uke, but that has some very mixed results for me (some strange ukemi happens sometimes).

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 08-04-2009, 06:59 PM   #4
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Re: Kick and Roll?

I was taught that the kick off works if the nage isn't given you much it gets you going. But technically I've been taught to lower as far as possible to the ground and your body will just go into the roll regardless of what speed you are going. If you are standing still you just slowly roll into it, if you are being throw zealously you fly. Either way it will be fluid and safe on your body. I still have a bad side however. One side that's not as flexible as the other, thus I take barrel rolls easily on my bad side, but lowering my hip joints to take forward rolls in an onward struggle. I can take the forward roll, just not as easily as my good side.
But get low and there is no need to kick, the roll can be smooth and silent. Your body is built to roll in that position.

I do put a little extra kick on my break falls however. Mostly to save my joints, I think you have to. A break fall is a technique you use in case you are behind your nage and are forced to flip out to save your joints. So a little kick to save the joint I think is the point of the break fall.

As for a back fall, I never kick-- ever. A back fall technically should be highly controlled in my opinion. As I've been taught, you should be able to control your rotation at any point in time in the roll. You should be able to stop and hold the position as you descend and control that position regardless of what point you are in the roll. Muscle control in a back roll is about safety. It can allow you to change direction, get up, roll out, switch to a barrel roll, avoid other uke on the mat. ..etc.

In my humble opinion kicking off is probably a crutch. Don't be afraid to fall and you won't need a crutch anymore. Never look at the mat, look at your nage when rolling, and be aware of your surroundings-- but don't look at the mat or you'll eat it. lol

Last edited by RED : 08-04-2009 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 08-04-2009, 09:51 PM   #5
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Re: Kick and Roll?

I don't kick, myself. For slow/low breakfalls, I try to lower my body to the mat as much as I can with the technique, almost as if I'm going to roll on the controlled side. It's an excellent chance to practise soft ukemi, to train the reaching with your free hand to come naturally. For high/fast breakfalls (Oh, look, sensei's doing shihonaAAAA!) the boing that sends me over happens before I could think of kicking off anyway...

I am not an expert
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Old 08-05-2009, 01:51 AM   #6
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Re: Kick and Roll?

There are times to use the kicks but I assume only when you need to save yourself from a fall that doesn't have enough momentum. Most times you can roll from whatever position really. You can even collapse into a roll.

The feeling of ukemi should be really connecting with the partner and moving yourself into a safe position at all times. If that entails a roll, you roll. If it means a breakfall, then do so. If it means you tenkan or irimi or kaiten or sink, then do so. There's never a 'proper' way to fall. You fall only if you have to.

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Old 08-05-2009, 09:47 AM   #7
Janet Rosen
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Re: Kick and Roll?

I agree with Ahmad. The kicking off may be helpful when you are first learning but I'd work on un-learning the habit now so you are freer to take any fall or roll that is appropriate in a given situation.

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Old 08-05-2009, 10:23 AM   #8
kokyu
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Re: Kick and Roll?

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
or are trying to work on "soft breakfalls" I see where you are coming from.
I'm sorry if I don't understand, but why would a soft breakfall require a kick?
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Old 08-05-2009, 10:27 AM   #9
kokyu
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Re: Kick and Roll?

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I agree with Ahmad. The kicking off may be helpful when you are first learning but I'd work on un-learning the habit now so you are freer to take any fall or roll that is appropriate in a given situation.
Thanks for the advice... I think it's also partly due to ukemi drills which are common in dojos around the world, e.g. rolling around the edges of the mat, rolling across the mat, etc... because there are people behind you, you don't want to become an obstruction, so you kick to roll further and get up faster... solo drills for breakfalls may also require a kick to allow your body to spin in the air... in time, these kicks become part of one's ukemi, even when practicing with a partner as the body has become used to kicking for rolls and breakfalls... something for me to bear in mind
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Old 08-05-2009, 10:28 AM   #10
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Re: Kick and Roll?

Quote:
Soon-Kian Phang wrote: View Post
I'm sorry if I don't understand, but why would a soft breakfall require a kick?
I was confirming that if he didn't like doing breakfalls or wants to work on landing softly, then kicking is a habit that he may want to consider breaking.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 08-05-2009, 07:44 PM   #11
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Re: Kick and Roll?

On another note, Systema ppl regularly kick in their ukemi too, but they kick the partner. You can experiment with that since taking ukemi doesn't have to be purely defensive. Yeah I know they're not kicking off, but being aware of what your legs are doing whilst doing ukemi means you're in control. Not being to stop kicking to launch yourself means you're not in control.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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