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Old 08-02-2009, 08:43 PM   #451
Buck
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

To wrap this stuff up in a nut shell-
Do you out-source what you think your missing in Aikido, and work within the framework of the out-source? Or do you dig deeper to understand what you are missing within the framework of what your doing.

Do you go (thinking there is something missing- parallels with the topic) to a blues guitarist, thinking to learn how to bend and overbend on a Chromatic Harmonica?

I think with Aikido all the principles are their, and the scope and dynamic (as defined and detailed previous) isn't missing anything. If something is missing it is on the individual, and not the art. Therefore it is up to the individual to fix it.

We all have a choice and depending on our background and stuff, we make a decision, A) do we out-source (as previously explained) or B) go to the batting coach for help (as previously explained)

That is a personal decision, not a decision applicable to everybody. Aikido isn't an religion trying to convert the unbelievers and all that. And if you don't believe something you aren't going to hell for it, you shouldn't be called a heretic or a martyr that was burned at the stake and all that.

Aikido isn't lacking it has been develop based on arts that where field tested for centuries, it has a solid framework, but it is the individual that hasn't. As people, doing an Aikido, it takes time to develop and refine skills that is in the framework of the art. It's not quick-fixes and skipping around to this and that, I think based on other such learning experiences like music.

If you really want to do Aikido than do it. That is the challenge, you either take it or not, that is up to you. It's all IMO and FWIW.
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Old 08-02-2009, 08:56 PM   #452
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I have a different purpose and stuff for training in Aikido, which is different from yours. Mine isn't military, and I am not military minded, or have the same purpose for martial arts as the military. I am not instructing any military personnel, either. I understand where you are coming from because of your purpose and background and all of that. The decisions and perspectives you take are based on that. That is all I am saying.

And it is true our applications in the dojo when training are pretty similar as the core, sure. I don't disgaree with that. But, I am not training soldiers for the battle field mentally or physicially. I don't have that responsibility.
You are making huge assumptions about my study of aikido and motivations to study it. Your assumptions are completely wrong.

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Old 08-02-2009, 09:58 PM   #453
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
But, I am not training soldiers for the battle field mentally or physicially. I don't have that responsibility.
If not, then I would raise a serious question. It is a martial art -- an art of war. What else would you be training them for?

What you DO with the training is another thing, but what one trains FOR must be with the same eye toward warfare, or it is not really a martial art. Whether one is doing battle on the spiritual planes or on this mundane one it is no less a battle, in either case.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-02-2009, 10:29 PM   #454
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
You are making huge assumptions about my study of aikido and motivations to study it. Your assumptions are completely wrong.
Kevin, if what is on your webpage isn't accurate or that in many of your posts, then I have made huge assumptions. In that case, apologies are then in order.

Shouldn't we really stay on topic.
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Old 08-02-2009, 10:46 PM   #455
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
To wrap this stuff up in a nut shell-
Do you out-source what you think your missing in Aikido, and work within the framework of the out-source? Or do you dig deeper to understand what you are missing within the framework of what your doing.

Do you go (thinking there is something missing- parallels with the topic) to a blues guitarist, thinking to learn how to bend and overbend on a Chromatic Harmonica?

I think with Aikido all the principles are their, and the scope and dynamic (as defined and detailed previous) isn't missing anything. If something is missing it is on the individual, and not the art. Therefore it is up to the individual to fix it.

We all have a choice and depending on our background and stuff, we make a decision, A) do we out-source (as previously explained) or B) go to the batting coach for help (as previously explained)

That is a personal decision, not a decision applicable to everybody. Aikido isn't an religion trying to convert the unbelievers and all that. And if you don't believe something you aren't going to hell for it, you shouldn't be called a heretic or a martyr that was burned at the stake and all that.

Aikido isn't lacking it has been develop based on arts that where field tested for centuries, it has a solid framework, but it is the individual that hasn't. As people, doing an Aikido, it takes time to develop and refine skills that is in the framework of the art. It's not quick-fixes and skipping around to this and that, I think based on other such learning experiences like music.

If you really want to do Aikido than do it. That is the challenge, you either take it or not, that is up to you. It's all IMO and FWIW.
BTW, Kevin, this wasn't addressed to you and I appologize for that error.
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Old 08-02-2009, 10:50 PM   #456
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Kevin, if what is on your webpage isn't accurate or that in many of your posts, then I have made huge assumptions. In that case, apologies are then in order.

Shouldn't we really stay on topic.
Too all: I was too late to delete this. Due to a possible misunderstanding, I think apologies are in order. Not to further any uncomfortablities and misunderstandings am dropping out of the thread.

Last edited by Buck : 08-02-2009 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 08-02-2009, 11:01 PM   #457
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Too all: I was too late to delete this. Due to a possible misunderstanding, I think apologies are in order. Not to further any uncomfortablities and misunderstandings am dropping out of the thread.
JIC, I am the one making the apologies!
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Old 08-02-2009, 11:14 PM   #458
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

I wonder if the aikido folks who attended Dan's workshop agree with Buck. I think the answer to: is IT missing in aikido? is: Not anymore.

Rob
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Old 08-02-2009, 11:53 PM   #459
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Your sucking me in.....

Rob,

Where there any notable, well respected, Shi-hans of any country of such top Aikido organization at the seminar? Did they say what Dan had was it?Has any recognized top Aikido organization put him at the top, recognized him as having it? Or any well respected and recognized martial arts organization recognized Dan as having it?

Is he the only one with it?

Last edited by Buck : 08-03-2009 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 08-03-2009, 12:15 AM   #460
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Buck,

#1 - "I don't look to authority for truth, I look to truth for authority" It seems like that you and I have opposite view points on that.

#2 - Why does he have to be put at the top of an organization? I'm not sure it would be possible. Can non-Japanese become shihan anymore?

#3 - There was 1 very well respected for superior aikido ability - shihan level - person at the seminar, and he said everything he needed to say by showing up, and no you don't get to ask who and get an answer. There were also the number 1 and number 2 people in the world at a karate/jujitsu system there making the same statement. All 3 of those people had 40+ years in martial arts and are considered top instructors.

#4 - Why don't you just consider the possibility that maybe you are wrong in your desire for there to not be anything missing in aikido and actually go see for yourself?

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 08-03-2009 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 08-03-2009, 12:40 AM   #461
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Buck,

#1 - "I don't look to authority for truth, I look to truth for authority" It seems like that you and I have opposite view points on that.

#2 - Why does he have to be put at the top of an organization? I'm not sure it would be possible. Can non-Japanese become shihan anymore?

#3 - There was 1 very well respected for superior aikido ability - shihan level - person at the seminar, and he said everything he needed to say by showing up, and no you don't get to ask who and get an answer. There were also the number 1 and number 2 people in the world at a karate/jujitsu system there making the same statement. All 3 of those people had 40+ years in martial arts.

#4 - Why don't you just consider the possibility that maybe you are wrong in your desire for there to not be anything missing in aikido and actually go see for yourself?

Rob
I am just trying to establish who recognizes that he has it, and what their credentials are. I am looking for the professional recognition, you know like in industry and the professional world, the product testing, and all that, that backs it all up-. You got the picture. I am just looking for the normal expected stuff like that. You got testimonials, that is good, but it just can't stop there.

Were any top notable recognized Shi-hans from any such organization saying it was it, and having Dan lead their schools? Was there an official military representative on the behalf of the military combative programs there giving their seal of approval as it? Was the World Book of Records there saying he had it. Who was there, by name, that said that was it?

Now was it Simon, Paula, or Randy who said he was it- kidding, it's the beer. The stuff up above I being serious.

Last edited by Buck : 08-03-2009 at 12:52 AM.
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Old 08-03-2009, 04:27 AM   #462
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I am just trying to establish who recognizes that he has it, and what their credentials are. I am looking for the professional recognition, you know like in industry and the professional world, the product testing, and all that, that backs it all up-.
Why trust the word of professionals? They are wrong sometimes.
What if Dan can reproduce most (if not all) of the demonstrations of body skills that O-Sensei did: grounding a push while seated, the jo trick, having someone push on his knee and bounce them off, etc.
You could still argue that Dan would be using different skills that just happen to produce the same results, but you won't have the issue of presentation you mentioned in post #447 of this thread.

And about that post #477, how about answering Kevin's question about which teachers do have the complete picture? And what are the credentials of these teachers? How can we know they do indeed have the 'it' some people feel is missing in most aikido?
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Old 08-03-2009, 06:40 AM   #463
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I am just trying to establish who recognizes that he has it, and what their credentials are. I am looking for the professional recognition, you know like in industry and the professional world, the product testing, and all that, that backs it all up-. You got the picture. I am just looking for the normal expected stuff like that. You got testimonials, that is good, but it just can't stop there.

Were any top notable recognized Shi-hans from any such organization saying it was it, and having Dan lead their schools? Was there an official military representative on the behalf of the military combative programs there giving their seal of approval as it? Was the World Book of Records there saying he had it. Who was there, by name, that said that was it?
No that's not true. You are obviously not JUST trying to establish who recognizes that he has IT, etc... You are trying to suggest that because no authority figure you recognize so far says he or any other has IT, that IT is not missing in aikido. And, as I have said:
Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
#1 - "I don't look to authority for truth, I look to truth for authority" It seems like that you and I have opposite view points on that.
You see, how I determine what's what, I consider:

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I've written this before:

For aikido, I would evaluate someone by questions like:
Can you do ikkyo without pushing?
Can you do iriminage without pulling?
Can you do shihonage without lifting?
(At the time, this was meant to be in terms of uke's without internal skills of course)

I do not know many people in any style of aikido who can do those things. But that is how I evaluated if people have "*it* in aikido before I knew anything about the internal skills I've been focused on lately.

For internal skills I want to know:
Can you deliver force without committing weight?
Can you move freely without your balance being vulnerable to pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel?
Are the hips driving your power or not? (added by Mark Murray)
How long did it take you to develop such things?

I suppose, IF the internal skills I am describing are *the* answer to how I evaluate someone in aikido, then pretty much almost no one has *it*.

IF there are other ways to do those things I listed as what I think is important in aikido devoid of internal skills, then I'm actually good with that. But I'd like to feel it myself. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Does this mean that people who do not measure up to *my* criteria are invalid or whatever? - no, it just means that *I* probably won't travel to try to learn from them. Everyone gets to decide for them selves.
Personally, I'm doing okay on this list of my own criteria to determine who has IT, myself. (I cannot yet move freely without my balance being vulnerable to pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel, but I'm working on that one.) But I can do most of that list remarkably better than most aikido people I have ever met, and I've only been training with Dan for under 3 years. Am I sure that O-sensei could do everything on that list, yeah, pretty sure.

And Buck, I think the other point you here is that the aikido people who attended Dan's seminar - THEY felt the recognized shihan in aikido and have a pretty good idea of what's what.

Rob
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Old 08-03-2009, 06:46 AM   #464
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
What if Dan can reproduce most (if not all) of the demonstrations of body skills that O-Sensei did: grounding a push while seated, the jo trick, having someone push on his knee and bounce them off, etc.
Where in Aikido does these abilities come into play. What technique uses "grounding a push while seated", bouncing people off your knees or the jo trick?

David
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Old 08-03-2009, 06:53 AM   #465
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Where in Aikido does these abilities come into play. What technique uses "grounding a push while seated", bouncing people off your knees or the jo trick?
Those are representative of skills (and the list of skills I suggested) that can be used in every technique. And THE fact that you are suggesting that these are not found in aikido techniques suggest that IT is missing in pretty much Everybody's aikido...

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 08-03-2009 at 06:57 AM.
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Old 08-03-2009, 06:53 AM   #466
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Where in Aikido does these abilities come into play. What technique uses "grounding a push while seated", bouncing people off your knees or the jo trick?

David
umm...all of them.
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Old 08-03-2009, 07:06 AM   #467
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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umm...all of them.
umm.... Okay when doing ikkyo where do you do "bouncing off the knees" like O'Sensei demonstrated? A video would be helpful.

David
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Old 08-03-2009, 07:25 AM   #468
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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umm.... Okay when doing ikkyo where do you do "bouncing off the knees" like O'Sensei demonstrated? A video would be helpful.

David
The body skills being used to LIFT them up and bounce them off his knee MIGHT just be the same skills that he used to lift people up off their balance when attacking shomen to do his ikkyo. Maybe he wasn't just pushing their arm to the uke's elbow with muscle strength... Look at ANY of his videos. Steve Wonder could see it.
Rob
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Old 08-03-2009, 07:33 AM   #469
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

How to develope Aiki in a step by step process is what is missing in Aikido, this is the main point.

stan
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Old 08-03-2009, 07:55 AM   #470
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
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Where in Aikido does these abilities come into play. What technique uses "grounding a push while seated", bouncing people off your knees or the jo trick?
Are you asking out of curiosity or because you believe these abilities are not part of aikido? If the former, Rob has answered that. If the latter, O-Sensei demonstrating these abilities on uchi-deshi in what is clearly an Aikio setting, should make it obvious enough.
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Old 08-03-2009, 08:08 AM   #471
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Your sucking me in.....

Rob,

Where there any notable, well respected, Shi-hans of any country of such top Aikido organization at the seminar? Did they say what Dan had was it?Has any recognized top Aikido organization put him at the top, recognized him as having it? Or any well respected and recognized martial arts organization recognized Dan as having it?

Is he the only one with it?
Most of the Shihans are what? well into their 60s and 70s now right? I think most of them would probably not have too much motivation to do so for a number of reasons. Also if you spend some time actually paying attention to what guys like Ellis Amdur and Peter Goldsbury talk about...well it gives you a pretty good idea of alot of the cultural issues surrounding teaching and transmission. At least a big "Ah Hah" goes off for me.

I know in my own Organization (ASU) that many of Saotome's Senior students (5 and 6th Dans) that are essentially intrusted with carrying forward the next generation have been pretty open to look externally for new ways to look at things.

It is not that they feel anything is missing from the art, necessarily, but maybe in their own skills and abilities? Understanding what Aikido should look and feel like has allowed them to be accepting of these "outside" teachers and influences I believe.

All I know is that guys I know, trust, and respect are positive about this and we are benefiting from it. I can tell you from my limited exposure, that I too have benefited.

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Old 08-03-2009, 08:19 AM   #472
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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Where in Aikido does these abilities come into play. What technique uses "grounding a push while seated", bouncing people off your knees or the jo trick?

David
David, actually you bring up a very valid question! I have really struggled hard with this one as well. In fact when I first started engaging Mike Sigman and Dan Harden here on AIkiweb alot of my friction with them centered around this point...that is...over application.

It really took me a while to figure out where this fit in for me as being "useful".

To me it is all relative. You could also ask the same question of Aikido. Where does any of this stuff come into play in helping us learn effective martial skills?

As with anything I think there is a balance that needs to be obtained. Finding out several years ago that I really could not fight very well even though I had about 12 years experience of TMA under my belt, I dove into BJJ and MMA, then in the last 2 years Judo. Spent 5 years learning lots of new things and I am at a level of comfort with my skills.

Turning 44 and trying to get to the next level in BJJ (Brown and Black Belt) has been very frustrating. I have mastered alot of the rote skills needed, but lack the strength, conditioning, and flexibility to get there.

So now I am looking at the so called "internal" training, doing yoga, and really working hard on my core while avoiding things that are causing me injuries. I am finding that this type of training has it's place and is helping me.

It does not take the place of waza or randori...I still do those things as well....maybe not as much.

Doing Shikkyo, connected breathing, stretching (not the normal kind, but full body kind), working on this kinda thing is starting to work for me some. Not sure how well I am doing "internally" probably not so well at all....but I am feeling stronger and better in my body.

That is my experiences on this and where I see it fitting in!

The Jo test and all that other stuff...well I simply see those things as measures of progression or assessment of what I need to work on. It gives us a framework to reference. That is all...not very useful in acutal waza or training.

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Old 08-03-2009, 08:31 AM   #473
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

In the following the bold type and parenthesis is mine.

From an interview with Koichi Tohei by William Reed of Central Florida Aikikai.

"After I first went to Hawaii in 1953, I went back many times to teach on each of the islands, as well as the mainland. When I returned to a dojo, I often found that people couldn't remember or agree on what I had taught them before. It seemed that many of the Aikido arts were very difficult to do, particularly when working with different partners. I then created and taught a set of Aiki Taiso, or exercises that you could do by yourself, which used the basic movements of the Aikido techniques.".....................

"Even beginners were able to coordinate mind and body (aiki), and be very stable when tested after doing the same movement twice."..........................

"Of course Ki principles can apply to any martial art, even to sports, dancing, or other forms of exercise. There are four basic principles: Keep One Point, Relax Completely, Keep Weight Underside, Extend Ki. None of these is restricted to Aikido, and in fact all can be applied to anything you do in daily life. I taught these basic principles to baseball professional Sadaharu Oh, and he broke the world record for home runs. The basic principles of the universe apply to anything you do. The reason people get poor results is because they try to go against natural principles. If you remember the principles and apply them subconsciously, they work for you every time. However, people have the bad habit of forgetting the fundamentals as soon as they make a bit of progress. That is why you need to keep training."

David
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Old 08-03-2009, 08:40 AM   #474
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

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The Jo test and all that other stuff...well I simply see those things as measures of progression or assessment of what I need to work on. It gives us a framework to reference. That is all...not very useful in acutal waza or training.
I agree. They an are indication of what Tohei called the coordination of mind and body ( internal aiki). But the jo trick, head push, etc are not in any techniques that I have practiced or seen practiced in Aikido.

David
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:48 AM   #475
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Re: Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Yea they are not done too much in my system of study either I don't believe. One of my Aikido teachers studied Uechi Ryu Karate and we did a fair amount of sanchin kata in which he would use many of these things to develop the frame work. Didn't really understand it at the time, but thinking back I understand it a bit more these days.

Also, a few of our instructors are now doing more of this kind of thing in our practice now which I think is good.

The hard part I think is that many of our students grow impatient with this type of training (they came to do "aikido", not this) and you have to balance it with Waza and Randori. The other thing is I personally don't think it will take or develop unless you are practicing it or conditioning your body solo outside the dojo...which is also difficult when you don't really feel like it is working for you.

I had a hard time wanting to do solo work. One it was boring not fun. Two, It is hard to see the reasons immediately for dong it. Three, it is hard to learn it and feel like you are doing it right. Four, you simply sometimes feel stupid when you are doing it.

Once you tilt the scales in the other direction though, I think it becomes easier to want to do it and you start seeing some pay off...then it becomes worthwile and you do it.

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