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Old 07-22-2009, 04:33 PM   #26
phitruong
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

loaded question coming through

which approach, waza or non-waza, produce better aiki body in the shorter time frame? (yes, i am aware of the personal effort needed)

have not meet Dan so can't say. had a few opportunities with Howie, but was very aiki-illiterate at the time. would like to know the commonality though.
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:04 AM   #27
Howard Popkin
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

Dan's Focus will bring you more body skills in a shorter amount of time,

BUT.........

Dan has been at it for a very long time, working it against all sorts of MMA guys. He developed it with countless hours of practice.

The more you work, the more you get....with either method.

Hope to see you soon Phi .

Howard
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:39 AM   #28
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Dan's Focus will bring you more body skills in a shorter amount of time,

BUT.........

Dan has been at it for a very long time, working it against all sorts of MMA guys. He developed it with countless hours of practice.

The more you work, the more you get....with either method.

Hope to see you soon Phi .

Howard
I agree with you, but I think there's something more to add, Howard.

If you love Daito ryu or Aikido, Dan's Focus won't hand you the art that you love. It'll certainly give you the aiki that was in both, but you won't get all the rest of the things that come with studying a martial art. For instance, Ueshiba studied Oomoto kyo and that influenced how he changed what he did with aiki. Tomiki studied Judo and that changed what he did with aiki. Shioda went to the Kodokai. Etc, etc. There are histories here that come from the founder and his students. Each of them expressed their own way.

If you're studying one of those systems, you need that history. You need the techniques and how they were done because that's part of the founder's ideals. The aiki puts the foundation there so that the understanding of the intricacies of the techniques makes a lot more sense.

I'm sure Howard can take what he's learned in Daito ryu and apply it in other venues. Because he has that foundation of aiki. But there's a lot more things in Daito ryu that he's learning that are just as important -- in regards to Daito ryu overall.

Ueshiba's aikido wasn't just aiki. People overlook this part of the message we've been stating because aiki is the foundation. Ueshiba built his house upon aiki. So did Sagawa, Kodo, Tomiki, Shioda, etc. They all look different for a reason. Aiki isn't a technique or fine motor skills or a tool. It becomes *you*. As Ueshiba replied, "I am aiki".

Using the house analogy, Ueshiba built a beautiful house upon the foundation of aiki. Shioda learned from Ueshiba and Kodo and built his own house. Tomiki, Sagawa, etc did. So, when someone sees these houses of different architectural designs, one of them appeals more than the others. And one can say, hey, I'd like to live in a house like that, how do I build one? And then one starts learning how to build that house, but without aiki as the foundation, it isn't as stable nor does it look the same.

The main point, though, is that even with aiki, you'll never build the house that appeals to you without also learning just what architectural methods were used and why.

So, yeah, some of us are saying you have to learn aiki. But, we're also saying, don't leave the art you love. Even with aiki, you'll never be a great Yoshinkan aikido practitioner, a great Tomiki one, etc. You have to have the whole thing. Just as without aiki, the house has no base, so too, if you only have aiki, there is no house atop it.

The foundation, aiki, is the person. The house atop it is how that person expresses themselves in techniques, movements, and ideals.
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:56 AM   #29
Howard Popkin
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

Very well put Mark,

Dan's skills are a very important piece to the puzzle, but Dan doesn't practice Daitoryu waza with it.

(Dan, please feel free to jump in here if I am wrong)


While I only spent a few hours with Dan, it was clear to me that he was really interested in Aiki for use with MMA.

While I have dabbled in Karate,Judo, etc... I am really interested in Daitoryu as a whole.

Daitoryu is a vast system and I really love it. What I liked about Dan's approach is it gives you a way to practice these skills without focusing on the technique, just that piece. Sometimes when you worry about what is happening to the opponent too soon, you don't realize what is happening in your own body. Dan's approach (for me) made it much easier for me to focus on what was going on inside of me instead of worrying if I threw the person or not.

I hope that helps !

Howard
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Old 07-23-2009, 08:21 AM   #30
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
loaded question coming through
which approach, waza or non-waza, produce better aiki body in the shorter time frame? (yes, i am aware of the personal effort needed)
have not meet Dan so can't say. had a few opportunities with Howie, but was very aiki-illiterate at the time. would like to know the commonality though.
It's not a loaded question and it has a clear and definitive answer.
Waza or no waza?
No waza...hands down.
You will never arrive at what I am working on by doing waza- for very specific reasons. Also, (at least in IME) Aikido waza will actually prevent or inhibit some body qualities, while DR doing waza will actually burn them in (albeit slowly) by default. The trick is to know which aspects to train for what, which are the keys to further growth, and which will not get you far at all. In other areas both arts waza will just not get you there at all.
Solo training and body conditioning for aiki works to change your body so you no longer function normally; you don't carry your weight, transfer weight, absorb or issue power-the same as normal people so. In so doing your body will neutralize force on you, any kind of force - including those attempting to do aiki to you. Onceo you learn to use that in action those qualities increase exponentially. Mores the point it will work in any art or in freestyle under pressure, or up against other internal arts-dependant on your skill level.
In the end it is simply a superior way to train as it produces a form of aiki in the body that is more potent then the aiki used in the waza. You change the way your body carries its weight, transfers that weight, and absorbs and issues power and it cancels out aiki waza on you in the process. This is not to diminish aiki waza. In and of themselves, those principles are a fine body of skills. I just find I don't need them in my work, and they are canceled out by this training anyway, even without having to resort to counter waza.

In other words the body method is the superior attribute within the art of Daito ryu, hands down, and coupled with a fighting approach (weapons included) is extremely potent. I have yet to meet anyone in the aiki arts; student and teacher alike, with or without weapons, that was much of a challenge, or that I could not just simply neutralize and go through. So, when we do body conditioning we skip the waza and focus on the mind/ body connection. You can try to approach that by the use of "concepts and principles" learned from within waza, but I have yet to see it get anyone there.
.
To be clear, the faster way to high level skills is to work the mind /body connection to change your body, then learn how to move and use that connection.
Trying to get there by training waza is the slower method, -if it ever works at all-for most people.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-23-2009 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 07-23-2009, 02:38 PM   #31
phitruong
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post

The more you work, the more you get....with either method.

Hope to see you soon Phi .

Howard
love to work as long as i know what to work on. please let me know when you are in-town, i'll buy lunch, dinner, drinks, whatever.
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Old 07-23-2009, 02:43 PM   #32
phitruong
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
It's not a loaded question and it has a clear and definitive answer.
Waza or no waza?
No waza...hands down.

To be clear, the faster way to high level skills is to work the mind /body connection to change your body, then learn how to move and use that connection.
Trying to get there by training waza is the slower method, -if it ever works at all-for most people.
Cheers
Dan
thanks Dan. so, will there be Dan's body-method for dummies workshop?
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Old 07-23-2009, 03:16 PM   #33
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
thanks Dan. so, will there be Dan's body-method for dummies workshop?
While I get the humor-I would never use the term. There is more than enough self-importance in Budo. I think we can do better. I don't want to talk down to, or about people who want to train - no matter who is involved.

As for another seminar-I don't know yet. Let me do this one and we'll see. I'm not interested in doing a bunch of seminars for people I'll never see again. I'm trying to find a responsible way to teach what I do in a larger format and then follow up with folks who are interested. It's why I chose to start with teachers.
I'm helping the best way I can.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-23-2009, 03:31 PM   #34
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

Mark, Howard
Great job explaining that. I'm not sure that message really gets through without a hands-on and face-to-face though.
It's simple enough to just ask yourselves. "Did either of you really know or understand what the heck I had been on about till we met?"
This is just as much (if not more) about you and your guys as it is about me, right? So any observations and qualifiers you both want to make is fine by me. In the end its going to be back in your hands anyway with you and your guys tuning your own arts and burning it in.

I'll just be back doing what I have always done and researching, and experimenting and trying to stay ahead and playfully competing with ya'll.
I aint ever going to stop!!
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-23-2009, 03:44 PM   #35
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
While I get the humor-I would never use the term. There is more than enough self-importance in Budo. I think we can do better. I don't want to talk down to, or about people who want to train - no matter who is involved.

As for another seminar-I don't know yet. Let me do this one and we'll see. I'm not interested in doing a bunch of seminars for people I'll never see again. I'm trying to find a responsible way to teach what I do in a larger format and then follow up with folks who are interested. It's why I chose to start with teachers.
I'm helping the best way I can.
Cheers
Dan
I have to say bully for you Dan. The fact that you take the time to educate those of us who 'didn't know that we didn't know' speaks volumes of your dedication to the higher purposes of the martial arts. Kudos to Mike Sigman as well.
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Old 07-23-2009, 04:05 PM   #36
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

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Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
I have to say bully for you Dan. The fact that you take the time to educate those of us who 'didn't know that we didn't know' speaks volumes of your dedication to the higher purposes of the martial arts. Kudos to Mike Sigman as well.
Naw. as Meik says We're all "just another bum on the budo bus!"
I hate guys waiving it over people heads and lording it over others. It's just budo man...get over yourself!

It's my biggest thing with teaching teachers. If I catch anyone being a d___k to people or holding back information from students, I am going to post their names and talk about them and tell people to avoid them everywhere I go. It's what I hated about budo in the first place and the chief reason I left it.
People don't know how to be nice anymore. If I take it up to teach someone than I teach to the best of my limited abilities whatever that may be. I teach for free, spend all my time reading and learning each persons weaknesses and strengths and try to pour what I know into correcting people. It's more than a square deal. I only hope its a good enough model that others follow suit.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-23-2009, 04:25 PM   #37
Howard Popkin
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

Dan,

To be honest, I didn't know what I would find for sure, but it was really along the lines of what I was thinking.

From what you say, and write, It was obvious that you knew what you were talking about, because to other people your words may come off one way, but to me they were literal exact explainations of what you though people should be working on.

As for the budo thing, you are correct....there are just too many people who don't teach. There are also too many people who don't give credit where credit is due.

As we discussed, there is a difference between idol worship vs. courtesy and respect. Courtesy and respect is a two way street, where idol worship isn't.

Once again, thanks !! and now back to the dojo to burn in some body skills

Be well,

Howard
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:50 PM   #38
Rabih Shanshiry
 
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Aikido waza will actually prevent or inhibit some body qualities, while DR doing waza will actually burn them in (albeit slowly) by default.
You really touched a nerve here Dan. That is *exactly* what I'm trying to avoid. I don't want to imprint bad body habits through my Aikido practice that will eventually prevent or inhibit internal skills development.

I would love to hear more about this. I'm wondering:

1. What Aikido waza should people be aware of that could impair their development of aiki?

2. Can you put your finger on the difference between Daito-ryu waza and Aikido waza? In other words, what is it about DR waza that "burns in" aiki skills that Aikido waza is lacking?

Thanks,
...rab
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:26 PM   #39
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

Quote:
Rabih Shanshiry wrote: View Post

1. What Aikido waza should people be aware of that could impair their development of aiki?
Hi Rabih,
I'll second that question since I was just about to post it myself.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-23-2009, 10:08 PM   #40
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

re: burn in
Quote:
..okay not so far he wasn't touching me at all - but continuing to stretch out toward him as I fell away actually helped me quite a bit with getting my mental intentions "strengthened" (not sure if that is the correct word!)..
From

Was thinking:
This was about (re)inforcing intent lines and 'preferring' to maintain the connections and structure and intent over 'traditional' movement... which would normally result in you bailing, stepping out, and losing structure/intent.
The changed body would necessitate that you prefer internal consistency/connection/self-reinforcement/intent to be maintained as an absolute priority. (e.g. even while falling, etc)

m 2 c
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Old 07-23-2009, 10:25 PM   #41
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I am particularly interested in Dan's comment that "It is all too typical to see men blinded by the 'It has to look a certain way!' attitude and thus miss the forest for the trees" . . I've seen this in more than one place online and in a number of different arts . .

Anyhow, thanks for sharing, guys.
Hi Budd,
I was thinking about this too. I was wondering if one meaning has to do with.. for instance..
you know in Aikido, how you 'finish a technique', like say an Irimi Nage projection, and you 'project out', statically at the end..and kind of stay there for a moment'? Well...now considering the stringing together of techniques and movement itself. More specifically all body movement viewed as points along a continuum of movement..always moving. always changing. always consistent and connected internally.
Thinking of aiki in the body as a 'field of influence' that the opponent is drawn into, well, given the relative importance that spiral energy is given (i.e. yes..beyond my pay grade)..the stringing together of coherent body movements/form is of the utmost importance then (right?). Like how Dan was talking about the proper way to cut all day long. in armor.
I could maybe see how preferring this internal consistency and flow in all movement would stop looking like the way Aikido waza is practiced. And I thought that that was an example were you might miss the internal flow/logic/connection because you were following outward form. clear as mud?

m 2 c
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:58 AM   #42
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Josh
Your link pointed to this post
Quote:
Fred Little wrote:
So Dan chooses to let no one see what he is doing unless they are working with him one-on-one in circumstances over which he has complete control, and that's quite understandable.
This simply isn't true.
It wasn't true then, it isn't true now.
To be perfectly clear;
I have NEVER worked in one-on-one controlled environments and still don't. Even when I had a closed dojo -we still went out and played. Through most of the 90's I taught in a public dojo with Judo, jujutsu, CMA and Goju, all taught there and public seminars given. I have taught over 300 people and have "shown my stuff" in friendly and not so friendly environments from MMA, BJJ, ICMA, judo, to karate. Now you can include dozens of visitors from so many different arts I've lost count-and many visitors have come and tried me out in front of 10 or so people. I also now teach in two different styles of Aikido. And I -still-meet people from many different arts-I just don't talk about it much. I don't think Freds intentions were negative-just mistaken.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:59 PM   #43
Fred Little
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I don't think Freds intentions were negative-just mistaken.
Josh,

Dan is 90% correct regarding my comment.. The remaining 10% that I might quibble about was -- at that time -- specific to his interactions with aikido folk (as distinct from the various practitioners of other arts with whom he had worked). Since then, he has made his approach available to a great many aikido practitioners who were willing to give it an honest shot, which makes whatever difference of opinion he and I might have once had on this point completely moot.

Reasonable researchers often reach provisional conclusions that change as new information becomes available. This is such an instance. 'Nuff said.

Best,

Fred Little

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Old 07-24-2009, 04:23 PM   #44
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

Hello Fred
To be fair to me I had many interactions with aikido folks from many different styles; teachers and student alike- spanning many years, including the big USAF guns -I just didn't talk about it. I still don't.
So there was a lot to say even back then-I just refused to say it -as you know from another instance where I refused to defend myself. I knew the truth would come out and I would just sit back and watch it unfold. So it has been with all this ...other...stuff! It is exactly as I said it would be- as if I had written the script years ago. Oh well.
Sometimes you just have to wait for things to unfold and all the players to take their places.
The internet audience can and will endlessly debate what their physical skills cannot deliver on...time and time again. It's just a waste of my time to debate it anymore. So, I choose to wait until I touch people...end of debate!! Despite all claims to the contrary - I have yet to meet anyone from Aikido who had "aiki" to any appreciable degree. But we'll see what the future brings as I get my hands on more big guns. Just don't expect to be reading that here either.
In the end, I don't think people are interested in an honest evaluation anymore (even with other aikidoka as witnesses) just an agreeable one!
I am making some great friends though and I find myself in a postion to help -what a pleasant surprise!
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-24-2009 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:51 PM   #45
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
So, I choose to wait until I touch people...end of debate!! Despite all claims to the contrary - I have yet to meet anyone from Aikido who had "aiki" to any appreciable degree.
So what do you need to be able to do to have aiki to a apperciable degree?
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Old 07-24-2009, 05:40 PM   #46
Fred Little
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hello Fred
To be fair to me I had many interactions with aikido folks from many different styles; teachers and student alike- spanning many years, including the big USAF guns -I just didn't talk about it. I still don't.
Cheers
Dan
Dan,

I have never hand any interest in being unfair to you, so let me rephrase that last bit to be quite precise: "at that time, no individual training in aikido known to me or to any individual who I a) knew personally or b) knew to be a reliable witness by second hand evidence or c) knew to have any level of appreciable skill in aikido or any precursor art (either through personal knowledge or reliable second hand knowledge) would either publicly or privately acknowledge any training with you in any capacity, much less acknowledge any substantive aiki-specific skill on your part."

Having heard personal testimony by an individual known to me who I regard as a skilled practitioner and a reliable witness, I have revised my opinion on this matter. That is all I am going to say publicly, although you may want to check your pm box in a few minutes.

Best,

Fred

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Old 07-24-2009, 07:39 PM   #47
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have yet to meet anyone from Aikido who had "aiki" to any appreciable degree.
I dunno... I think this goes a bit far. I think we're still into the "DR is far better than Aikido" routine. I could say "I have yet to meet anyone from DR who has any real qi/jin skills", but that would also be rather superficial statement that would serve no purpose other than self-aggrandizement. So I don't bother to make such obvious comments.

Heck... I don't even think things like that.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:57 PM   #48
DH
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

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Fred Little wrote: View Post
Dan,
I have never hand any interest in being unfair to you, so let me rephrase that last bit to be quite precise: "at that time, no individual training in aikido known to me or to any individual who I a) knew personally or b) knew to be a reliable witness by second hand evidence or c) knew to have any level of appreciable skill in aikido or any precursor art (either through personal knowledge or reliable second hand knowledge) would either publicly or privately acknowledge any training with you in any capacity, much less acknowledge any substantive aiki-specific skill on your part."

Having heard personal testimony by an individual known to me who I regard as a skilled practitioner and a reliable witness, I have revised my opinion on this matter. That is all I am going to say publicly, although you may want to check your pm box in a few minutes.
Best,
Fred
Got the P.M. That was great advice and worth serious consideration. Thanks, Fred.
Dan
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:05 AM   #49
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

Hi Mike,
I think you are missing the point. In both DR and Aikido the solo training and in depth information that is needed to develope high level aiki is not being generally presented.

stan
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:43 AM   #50
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Re: Meeting with Dan Harden

Hello Stan
True, but I was making a comparative measure of "my" own new venture, compared to past ventures with aikido practitioners- to Fred. As you well know the comment includes not excludes several from DR as well. The problem is in both arts.
You might note that Fred used the same qualifier in his reply to me; "knew to have any level of appreciable skill in aikido or any precursor art"....
So he didn't change his own view until he heard from someone who he himself vetted as having *real skills* from aikido, thus separating the wheat from the chaff by his own standards. I guess he's had better luck than me so far, but I remain hopeful. Howard was a pleasant change, and he could just as well have been an aikido guy. I guess I'm not going to apologize that his DR training created a different body type in him from what I continue to find in Aikido and it was obvious to all of the Aikido folks. Come to think of it including George Ledyard's write up of him in several places. None of which had anything to do with me either.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-25-2009 at 07:57 AM.
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