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Old 07-14-2009, 02:24 PM   #26
Kevin Karr
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

I believe that, for the first few years *at least*, ukemi is more important than waza. Good ukemi is probably the most important thing to learn as one makes their way to Shodan. I know I have read more than one excerpt from the "old masters" of both bugei and budo who say that ukemi comes first, then waza. So, for Aikido, I think that ukemi can't be stressed enough. It should be a major part of the training. How else can one become "soft?" Isn't Aikido a jujutsu form? Ukemi would be a major part of the "ju". Having well developed ukemi is essential for many reasons.
As far as testing, well, one can't truly progress in waza if they haven't progressed in ukemi to an equal or greater degree. The two aspects are inseparable. So, with every test one takes, they are being tested on both things.

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Old 07-14-2009, 02:33 PM   #27
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

Quote:
I know I have read more than one excerpt from the "old masters" of both bugei and budo who say that ukemi comes first, then waza.
Hi Kevin, you wouldn't happen to have a source for that, would you? I've heard in the classical arts, the senior usually takes the role of uketachi. Which seems to contradict what you are suggesting.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-14-2009, 02:56 PM   #28
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

Hey Ron,

If I remember correctly, one source is O-Sensei, the other was from either Donn Draeger's "Classical Budo" or his "Bujutsu" book and I *think* I read that Saotome Sensei had expressed the same idea in one of his books. There are other possibilities, as well, that I just can't remember. Sorry if these sources aren't very detailed. I read a lot of things and I don't necessarily catalog them very well for reference.

True, I have read that in the Koryu arts the Sensei often performs the role of uke for his students but I never got the idea that this meant the deshi then only concentrated on waza and never performed the role of uke themselves. I am sure they have to be uke for their Sensei, at least. I'd say that is the best and most strenuous way to learn!
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Old 07-16-2009, 09:37 AM   #29
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Do symbol Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

If I am reading the responses correctly, there is pretty much is a consensus that by Shodan there should be a reasonable expectation that one have an ukemi ability on par with their level of waza. The lack of consensus is on whether of not there should be ukemi testing requirements along the way.

On this point I will say that I can see how one could get to shodan and this not be the case. If one's peers and sensei don't have that expectation going through the ranks and one does not volunteer on others tests then ukemi would not be exposed to have fallen behind. Consequently, one could test for Shodan and ukemi would just be assumed to be up to par because one is skilled enough in waza to test.

I argue that when this is the case it is to the long-term detriment of others training at the dojo--or at a seminar. When one desires to explore different tangents or just let loose there ends up being a small pool of individuals who are available to take the ukemi. Further, of this pool, there is an even smaller number who are then willing, confident and skilled enough to "keep up" or "take it" depending on what is being done.

On anther tangent, for those who are of Yudansha rank should it matter (with age, injury, etc taken into account) what is being explored by nage? In other words, is it not reasonable to assume that the uke has the ability and willingness to take charge of their ukemi so you can explore (Not being reckless).

Does one have to ask each Yudansha who attacks, "Ok, what ukemi can you take? What Ukemi can't you take? Are you comfortable with staying with me so I can practice connection? What if --in the moment--a breakfall or koshi throw presents itself--should I stop and see if it is OK or are you going to not say anything--take it-and then sulk?
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Old 07-16-2009, 11:12 AM   #30
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

----"Does one have to ask each Yudansha who attacks, "Ok, what ukemi can you take? What Ukemi can't you take? Are you comfortable with staying with me so I can practice connection? What if --in the moment--a breakfall or koshi throw presents itself--should I stop and see if it is OK or are you going to not say anything--take it-and then sulk?"----
-----------------------------------------------

See, this is where, imo, we find a big problem with the kyu/dan ranking system. The skill level of one Shodan (or nidan, sandan, etc.) in comparison to another can be significant especially when you cross organizational lines. This also points to the problem of the rapid over-expansion of Aikido as a whole without proper quality control restraints, or checks and balances, if you will. In addition, this illustrates the complexity of having seminars where many different aikidoka from different schools get together to train, in general.

I think that if one has reached the point where they have donned the fabled "black trousers" they should be able to do everything you mentioned above without question and, absolutely, without sulking! If I ever saw one of yudansha level sulking over taking demanding ukemi, I would consider them a very poor student of budo. Of course, the instructor of any seminar must take into account the age of their uke. I think everyone understands that demanding ukemi is mostly for the younger set.

Still, this situation, in general, is problematic...
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Old 07-16-2009, 12:55 PM   #31
C. David Henderson
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

Quote:
Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
If I am reading the responses correctly, there is pretty much is a consensus that by Shodan there should be a reasonable expectation that one have an ukemi ability on par with their level of waza.
I've always understood that -- barring age- or disability-related problems -- ukemi skills should, if anything, be somewhat ahead of skill in acting as nage, at least through this level.

Quote:
[O]ne could test for Shodan and ukemi would just be assumed to be up to par because one is skilled enough in waza to test.
I don't see how. Whether or not one volunteers to take ukemi when others test, one can't go through a single class (much less years of training) without providing manifest evidence of one's skill in taking ukemi to one's Sensei. Testing is not the only or even necessarily primary source of evidence of skill -- practice is.

Quote:
Does one have to ask each Yudansha who attacks, "Ok, what ukemi can you take? What Ukemi can't you take? Are you comfortable with staying with me so I can practice connection? What if --in the moment--a breakfall or koshi throw presents itself--should I stop and see if it is OK or are you going to not say anything--take it-and then sulk?
The answer depends on the circumstances. If you are working with someone you've practiced with for years, you probably have a very good idea of what they ordinarily can handle. Of course, they have a responsibility, even then, to let you know of acute injuries and the like.

If your partner isn't someone you know well (or at all) it's appropriate to communicate about potentially dangerous ukemi, IMO.

Do you know of someone in particular who "sulked" in the circumstances you described? Have you ever been injured taking ukemi? What was your response?

cdh
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Old 07-16-2009, 01:41 PM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

I have been injured, and I certainly hope I didn't "sulk". :O

I guess I think just talking to your partner a bit, and feeling things out in keiko a bit, yields a lot of the needed answers. I tend to get around a bit (to other organizations and dojo), and I rarely have issues that I know of (all of you that hate me sit down and be quiet, please ). I'm not going to pound the snot out of ANYONE on the first throw of the day or the partner practice with them. I'm going to start at what seems a reasonable level, and expect my partner to let me know if that was not actually reasonable. And I may just ask them if I'm not sure. Then, if **we** want to ramp it up, fine. If it gets too rough for me, it's up to me to speak up and let them know that. No sulking needed...

I like being tested on every ukemi called for on a test seperately during the test, because it keeps me safe. If I can do that ukemi by myself, I have a reasonable chance of doing it as uke with a partner. And of course, exceptions can easily be made for disability, age, etc.

Best,
Ron (common sense seems to work really well here)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-16-2009, 02:24 PM   #33
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

Once I got my foot caught in someone's hakama right as I was being thrown for forward ukemi. I sort of "crunched" into the mat instead of rolling and tore a bunch of muscles in my rib cage. I was pretty frustrated as I lay there staring at the ceiling about being injured, because I knew it was going to take a few months to heal (and just when I was about to make that breakthough....)

I certainly wasn't angry at my partner. But I can sure see that it could have appeared while I lay there that I was. (What really annoyed me was people coming up and putting their hands on my chest to see if I was okay -- I kept pushing the hands away, because it hurt when they did that.)

To the extent I have a point here, I guess the point is -- how would nage know if it's "sulking"? Especially if you assume the person should be able to take the fall without complaint, they get hurt anyway, they're not complaining, but they seem upset? Isn't being upset a pretty natural reaction to being hurt?

It just seems to me the label "sulking" is both full of judgment and a way of removing one's self from the interaction. That's why I asked the question I did.
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:39 PM   #34
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Tongue Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
Once I got my foot caught in someone's hakama right as I was being thrown for forward ukemi. I sort of "crunched" into the mat instead of rolling and tore a bunch of muscles in my rib cage. I was pretty frustrated as I lay there staring at the ceiling about being injured, because I knew it was going to take a few months to heal (and just when I was about to make that breakthough....)

I certainly wasn't angry at my partner. But I can sure see that it could have appeared while I lay there that I was. (What really annoyed me was people coming up and putting their hands on my chest to see if I was okay -- I kept pushing the hands away, because it hurt when they did that.)

To the extent I have a point here, I guess the point is -- how would nage know if it's "sulking"? Especially if you assume the person should be able to take the fall without complaint, they get hurt anyway, they're not complaining, but they seem upset? Isn't being upset a pretty natural reaction to being hurt?

It just seems to me the label "sulking" is both full of judgment and a way of removing one's self from the interaction. That's why I asked the question I did.
If there is an injury--I completely agree. I dont't see sulking as judgmental, but an observation of behavior. Adults sulk and children pout (Perhaps there is a disproportant number of individuals who are passive aggressive in Aikido because we don't tap each other or punch each other out due to the nature of our training). Nage could not know if one is sulking, just quiet or whatever because an injury occurred.

However, if there is not an injury (and this is verified), it quite possible that a person is sulking (which if one is familiar with Uke, you know them) because they could not keep up or a breakfall or koshi fall was executed. My point is that they should--A) be able to take the Ukemi and B)not be upset if they (barring age, disability, injury and are of Senior/Yudansha rank) strap it on and get on the mat. Perhaps in a legal analogy the term is implied consent.

The simple fact of the matter is that in an open practice context, Nage may not know what technique or techniques are going to be used until one begins interacting. Uke should assume that a higher level may be required ( I use breakfall because it tends to get the most resistance) and not be upset if it is--in this hypothetical Uke is a senior student or Yudansha after all. I don't mean to suggest that each an every exchange would be this way--Nage should ask Uke in advance if he/she were going to rip off 8 kote-goshi breakfalls in a row or something.
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Old 07-16-2009, 09:08 PM   #35
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

This is from Ellis Amdur's article ' Hidden In Plain Sight" on Aikido Journal.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=653

Ellis Amdur says,
"It is through ukemi, not imitation of the teacher's waza that one begins to achieve skill in aiki. This leads to a fascinating resonance in the creating of skill and strength."

He is discussing how O'Sensei viewed Aikido practice. If O'Sensei thought that ukemi was that important then maybe it should be tested.

David
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Old 07-17-2009, 01:21 PM   #36
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
This is from Ellis Amdur's article ' Hidden In Plain Sight" on Aikido Journal.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=653

Ellis Amdur says,
"It is through ukemi, not imitation of the teacher's waza that one begins to achieve skill in aiki. This leads to a fascinating resonance in the creating of skill and strength."

He is discussing how O'Sensei viewed Aikido practice. If O'Sensei thought that ukemi was that important then maybe it should be tested.

David
I'm not highly proficient, but I attribute much of whatever skill i do have to my experiences as uke. In trying to generate a whole-body attack, being compromised to some degree, and then trying to maintain or regain structural integrity seems like a great exercise to practice.
I can also think of a handful of times as uke which left a strong impression on how ready to move I need to be. One example came from an older guy who said he was a national level judo player (I forget which Eastern European country): he nearly tore my arm off with a shoulder throw I was just barely ready for. His intent wasn't to hurt me, and I'm quite sure he didn't put his all into it, but it was clear to me that if I had been less prepared, I could have been more easily hurt (weak shoulder wanted to pop out, but didn't).
I'm curious what people think about the role of centripital forces (analogous to re-centering efforts?) to performing good ukemi. Any thoughts?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-18-2009, 08:13 AM   #37
Anjisan
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Smile Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I'm not highly proficient, but I attribute much of whatever skill i do have to my experiences as uke. In trying to generate a whole-body attack, being compromised to some degree, and then trying to maintain or regain structural integrity seems like a great exercise to practice.
I can also think of a handful of times as uke which left a strong impression on how ready to move I need to be. One example came from an older guy who said he was a national level judo player (I forget which Eastern European country): he nearly tore my arm off with a shoulder throw I was just barely ready for. His intent wasn't to hurt me, and I'm quite sure he didn't put his all into it, but it was clear to me that if I had been less prepared, I could have been more easily hurt (weak shoulder wanted to pop out, but didn't).
I'm curious what people think about the role of centripital forces (analogous to re-centering efforts?) to performing good ukemi. Any thoughts?
If I am understanding you correctly--very important. As an Uke one has to be able to keep one's center under them so that one can continually adjust. IMHO one has to be able to "be in the moment" and "on your game" both for honest connection and for safety, especially as the speed picks up. One certainly does not want to be left to simply be a kite and be totally dependent on Nage's skill, good intentions and the X factor not creeping in.
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:50 AM   #38
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I'm curious what people think about the role of centripital forces (analogous to re-centering efforts?) to performing good ukemi. Any thoughts?
I'd say it's absolutely essential! As soon as your arm goes out of the control of your centre, you are wide open to having it torn off if tori decides to do so
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Old 07-20-2009, 08:51 AM   #39
Basia Halliop
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

Quote:
On this point I will say that I can see how one could get to shodan and this not be the case. If one's peers and sensei don't have that expectation going through the ranks and one does not volunteer on others tests then ukemi would not be exposed to have fallen behind. Consequently, one could test for Shodan and ukemi would just be assumed to be up to par because one is skilled enough in waza to test.
This is very hard for me to picture -- wouldn't the level of a person's ukemi be obvious day after day in class?

Plus, every time someone prepares for a test, it's not just one or a couple of volunteers for one day of the test they need -- it's a continuous stream of volunteers for all the weeks and months before the test, and for higher level tests that includes jiuwaza and multiple attacker randori. How could one get to shodan without being involved in many test preparations? I suppose that part might depend on the size and demographics of the dojo, though. But surely just from regular classes you have a pretty good idea anyway.
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:38 PM   #40
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Talking Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
This is very hard for me to picture -- wouldn't the level of a person's ukemi be obvious day after day in class?

Plus, every time someone prepares for a test, it's not just one or a couple of volunteers for one day of the test they need -- it's a continuous stream of volunteers for all the weeks and months before the test, and for higher level tests that includes jiuwaza and multiple attacker randori. How could one get to shodan without being involved in many test preparations? I suppose that part might depend on the size and demographics of the dojo, though. But surely just from regular classes you have a pretty good idea anyway.
This are several valid points listed above. However, it brings us back to the beginning of this thread. If the expectations for Ukemi up through the ranks are lower (and not tested for) than the rank being tested for then one could get to Shodan and there be a gap. It is all about expectations, accountability and what is focused on.
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Old 07-20-2009, 07:27 PM   #41
C. David Henderson
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

I think the question remains whether testing ukemi skills (which we've done in my dojo from time to time, but not always) is necessary to prevent the situation you've described. What I hear you say in response in fact posits two conditions -- low expectations and no testing. But if the first condition exists, the presence or absence of testing (w/ low expectations) seems secondary. YMMV, of course.
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:31 AM   #42
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

This line of discussion reminds me of the issue of "nandu" in the new international wushu rules. Points are now being awarded as they are in gymnastics, with a tiered system of skills. It has led to a lot of injuries, and an even larger gap in the success rates of practitioners from different nations (bye bye olympic bid). But really, what is the value of a trip twist spear toss into a split? Looks

Anyway, testing ukemi is fine I suppose. But it may lead to people looking for bigger and bigger tricks.
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Old 07-22-2009, 01:23 PM   #43
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

It also leads to the question -- if someone has some physical reason they can't take some kinds ukemi or not in some situations (e.g. back pain, age related changes), but their waza is excellent - not unreasonable, I think, given the different demands on the body of good ukemi and good technique - how important a problem is that and to what degree, if any, should it be the basis for rank or lack thereof?
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Old 07-22-2009, 01:59 PM   #44
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

Another thing to note is the higher you get in rank, the more you are used as uke by your sensei. I think that gives them a good indication about your ukemi. I know he used a third kyu for demonstraing a technique and spent several minutes correcting her.

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Old 07-23-2009, 04:33 AM   #45
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

A few comments:

* Who ever said testing is required?
- In many M.A. one can advanc ein ranks even without testing. As far as I know, this is the more traditinal way - the teacher who knows you decides on your rank, he knows you every day, so a test is not required.

* Very high falls and fancy Ukemi does not neccesserily improve the ability to handle any throw. The "basic Ukemi techniques" (including both rolls and breakfalls) suffices to almost anything.

* If one is going to "get rough" he had better tell his partner so both will adjust. There is no point to planting a slowly attacking fully cooperative (& practily assiting) Uke. At the same time(as you talk) Uke should tell you of any injuries that may impair his abilities.
And I am talking form the POV of one whose randor is more similar to sparing them most (both sides atack with any technique from a grasp to kicking combinations, each responds, both acting freely and without turns, and yes - counters are allowed ...). When one does that, one learns he has to adjust to the partners ability (no point in attacking faster than the other can respond correctly - he will not learn anything)

Amir
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Old 07-23-2009, 06:51 AM   #46
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

Quote:
Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
The simple fact of the matter is that in an open practice context, Nage may not know what technique or techniques are going to be used until one begins interacting. Uke should assume that a higher level may be required ( I use breakfall because it tends to get the most resistance) and not be upset if it is--in this hypothetical Uke is a senior student or Yudansha after all. I don't mean to suggest that each an every exchange would be this way--Nage should ask Uke in advance if he/she were going to rip off 8 kote-goshi breakfalls in a row or something.
Hmmm... at a seminar once I was practicing kote gaeshi with someone I didn't know and he fell on his shoulder twice in a row. (Not hard, he wasn't injured or hurt, but it's not supposed to happen.) The reason was simple: I was giving him the opportunity to do a forward roll, but he thought that he needed to do a breakfall. So he went into his breakfall (expecting me to support him) at about the same time I led his hand further down and released most of my grip to allow him to roll, causing him to fall on his shoulder. The second time I expected him to adjust, but he didn't. (He got a bit angry.) After that I supported his breakfall.

Lessons to be learned from this:
1) Never rely on nage's support when you do a breakfall.
2) Communication and sensitivity are very important.
3) Be extra cautious when training with people you have not trained before. There's no way of telling what's going to happen.
4) The small stylistic between dojos are the most dangerous.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:45 AM   #47
Craig Allen Jr
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
Hmmm... at a seminar once I was practicing kote gaeshi with someone I didn't know and he fell on his shoulder twice in a row. (Not hard, he wasn't injured or hurt, but it's not supposed to happen.) The reason was simple: I was giving him the opportunity to do a forward roll, but he thought that he needed to do a breakfall. So he went into his breakfall (expecting me to support him) at about the same time I led his hand further down and released most of my grip to allow him to roll, causing him to fall on his shoulder. The second time I expected him to adjust, but he didn't. (He got a bit angry.) After that I supported his breakfall.

Lessons to be learned from this:
1) Never rely on nage's support when you do a breakfall.
2) Communication and sensitivity are very important.
3) Be extra cautious when training with people you have not trained before. There's no way of telling what's going to happen.
4) The small stylistic between dojos are the most dangerous.
That brings up a seperate issue which is having a preconceived notion of what the ukemi *should* be for a particular technique. If uke is tuned in to what's happening, he/she will know whether or not a breakfall is appropriate or necessary.

As for your point #3, I agree, especially with regards to atemi. It seems reasonable to expect an experienced uke to move to avoid a strike to the face, but such is not always the case!
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Old 07-23-2009, 01:20 PM   #48
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Talking Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
A few comments:

* Who ever said testing is required?
- In many M.A. one can advanc ein ranks even without testing. As far as I know, this is the more traditinal way - the teacher who knows you decides on your rank, he knows you every day, so a test is not required.

* Very high falls and fancy Ukemi does not neccesserily improve the ability to handle any throw. The "basic Ukemi techniques" (including both rolls and breakfalls) suffices to almost anything.

* If one is going to "get rough" he had better tell his partner so both will adjust. There is no point to planting a slowly attacking fully cooperative (& practily assiting) Uke. At the same time(as you talk) Uke should tell you of any injuries that may impair his abilities.
And I am talking form the POV of one whose randor is more similar to sparing them most (both sides atack with any technique from a grasp to kicking combinations, each responds, both acting freely and without turns, and yes - counters are allowed ...). When one does that, one learns he has to adjust to the partners ability (no point in attacking faster than the other can respond correctly - he will not learn anything)

Amir
I completely agree that non-testing is perhaps a more traditional approach. However, many, if not most, of us are in organizations where testing for waza does occur. The issue therefore, is if one is going to test for waza , perhaps Ukemi could have benchmarks as well. Further, have those benchmarks coincide with the rank one is testing for so consequently, one is not going to be held to being excellent at "connection" with Nage or "Breakfalls" at 4th kyu.

However, by Shodan I feel that it should be a "safe assumption" that one is able to take such Ukemi. For Shodan, those types of Ukemi should be considered "basic". If one is a junior student, one should have confidence that one of Yudansha rank has a certain level of confidence in waza--one normally shouldn't have to ask, "Can you execute a shomen strike?". The same should hold true for the other side of the same coin--Ukemi.

Should one have to interview someone -whom one doesn't know well just in case a certain type of ukemi (nothing crazy-I am talking again about the typical scope) may come up?? Even if one does know them well, Nage may not know in advance that a certain type of Ukemi will be needed so is it not better to be able to assume a certain level of competence?

Breakfalls were only brought up as one--but significant-- example of Ukemi skill in the context of what a Yudansha should be able to do (with age, disability, etc taken into account).

Personally I do not see a lot of "high" breakfalls. What I have seen are kote-goshi (example) breakfalls that are usually waist high. Perhaps if one is fearful of taking a breakfall, that is "high". Breakfalls seem to occur for one of two reasons :

1) The Nage wants to explore and such a technique seems to feel "right" in the moment--but might not necessarily be planned for ahead of time. Isn't Aikido supposed to be "in the moment" fluid and free flowing? My sensei has told me several times how Saotome sensei doesn't know what technique he is going to do ahead of time. Further he may not do the same technique twice in a row because the attack may change ever so slightly.

Given that, I would hope that any Yudansha called up should know that a breakfall may or may not be used. The same (IMHO) should apply if someone else is training with a Yudansha. Obviously, one cannot be reckless or if one is going to be executing strange ukemi--it is only proper to notify one's Uke so they it can be agreed upon or not.

2) A breakfall may also be needed for self-preservation as an Uke. The Nage makes a mistake and to save one's joints and limbs, a breakfall will provide safety.

Again, the thread is about the full rage of Ukemi skill, not just breakfalls. A whole range of Ukemi skills ( connection, following, breakfall, Koshi) to name a few could come into play in a single interaction or in a series such as Randori.
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Old 07-23-2009, 04:26 PM   #49
C. David Henderson
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

Why does it follow that if you are in an organization where "waza" is tested that the issue "therefore" becomes one about testing ukemi?

Isn't it just as valid to turn it around -- "since many of us are in organizations where ukemi is not tested, the issue therefore is whether waza needs to be tested?"
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:43 AM   #50
ellie
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Re: Progressing with Ukemi as well as Waza.

in my class we r tested on our ukemi as well as our waza and we spend bout 10 15 mins a week on breakfalls.
i think that they are just as important because i've been thrown hard and if we hadn't spent so long on them it would've really hurt.
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