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Old 07-20-2009, 11:01 AM   #76
DH
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

On the whole I think grapplers have always...always been a healthier lot than most people I have met in formal budo. Winning and losing and putting it out there keeps you in check and in balance.
That said, I think we should give credence to the fact that most grapplers have a level of confidence and lack of fear that is inherent in them from their training, and not enough credit is given to the fact that in itself that is a very profound aspect -of- Budo.
I really only have one thing to say to people who keep trying to do knife training.
Find someone who really knows how to use a knife (not a knife technique teacher) it may open your eyes to how much trouble you can really get yourself into and how ill-equipped most budo people are in dealing with it.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 07-20-2009, 12:45 PM   #77
Marc Abrams
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
On the whole I think grapplers have always...always been a healthier lot than most people I have met in formal budo. Winning and losing and putting it out there keeps you in check and in balance.
That said, I think we should give credence to the fact that most grapplers have a level of confidence and lack of fear that is inherent in them from their training, and not enough credit is given to the fact that in itself that is a very profound aspect -of- Budo.
I really only have one thing to say to people who keep trying to do knife training.
Find someone who really knows how to use a knife (not a knife technique teacher) it may open your eyes to how much trouble you can really get yourself into and how ill-equipped most budo people are in dealing with it.
Cheers
Dan
Dan:

Grapplers have confidence because of the uniforms that they put us in ! It takes a whole lot of cajones to wear those around your friends during your adolescence and early twenties.



Marc Abrams
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Old 07-20-2009, 12:55 PM   #78
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
For that kind of thing to be what I consider my kind of aikido training in a pressure-tested situation - it has to be movement without struggle.
Even though my critics would say otherwise, this as well is my goal. However one has to put in his time with resistance before this becomes even remotely possible.

Using Bjj as an example. I'm not sure if you've ever hand the chance to "roll" with a high level Bjj black belt, but if you have you'll know that they can often effortlessly out grapple people with several years experience who may be much larger then they are.

Now that's not what they looked like the first time they started grappling. They resisted, and used force and wasted lot's of energy. But now, because they did that, because they constantly faced the resistance with the goal of being better next time, they improved.

This is also what the UFC, and other MMA competitions have done with unarmed fighting. They have constantly faced resistance, in an attempt to get better. Watching MMA on television, seeing two guys of similar physicality and ability fight you can't always tell that. However if you see them spar with lessor competitors, they can effortlessly handle them.

Two guys of the same ability with opposing will, will always create a struggle. That is what a "fight" is. However the intended goal of martial technique should be to easily defeat those who are untrained of your same physicality. Or to be able to achieve a victory against someone untrained who is larger then you.

My apologies for the long post.

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Old 07-20-2009, 02:26 PM   #79
Suru
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Re: Japanese Aikido Teachers - Translation

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Drew,
I wanted to address this separately. Ellis Amdur Sensei once told us that in almost all martial arts there are techniques which one trains in . not because he thinks he will actually do those techniques on an opponent, but rather so he can understand those techniques well enough that no one can do them on him.
I was just re-reading my first post on this thread, and then I read the few that followed. At the University of Miami Aikido Club, led by Cat Fitzgerald Sensei (rank unknown to me), he dedicated an entire class solely to reversals of several Aikido techniques. That was an extremely fun and probably highly beneficial class. I had a few years training under my "belt," but I hadn't done these. It was just really frickin' cool! I wonder if that particular class was some kind of an anomaly, or if many of you all have studied reversals. If so, to what degree? By the way, FItzgerald Sensei has the potential to be intimidating, but he is a really warm-hearted sensei, who guides while fully respecting his students and their feelings.

Drew
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:48 PM   #80
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
On the whole I think grapplers have always...always been a healthier lot than most people I have met in formal budo. Winning and losing and putting it out there keeps you in check and in balance.
That said, I think we should give credence to the fact that most grapplers have a level of confidence and lack of fear that is inherent in them from their training, and not enough credit is given to the fact that in itself that is a very profound aspect -of- Budo.
I really only have one thing to say to people who keep trying to do knife training.
Find someone who really knows how to use a knife (not a knife technique teacher) it may open your eyes to how much trouble you can really get yourself into and how ill-equipped most budo people are in dealing with it.
Cheers
Dan
Yeah, I think the only appropriate response to a knife being drawn on one is to draw a weapon of superior force (gun), or run like hell.

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Grapplers have confidence because of the uniforms that they put us in ! It takes a whole lot of cajones to wear those around your friends during your adolescence and early twenties.
What are you talking about Marc? I look GOOD in tights!
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:52 PM   #81
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

My memory is not very good anymore, so I can't remember the names, but I've seen at least a few MMA fights where the opponants where evenly matched, yet you didn't really see what I would call struggle when they matched each other on the ground. What I saw was an endless flow from one position to another...some of the best scrambles I have ever seen!

Best,
Ron
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Even though my critics would say otherwise, this as well is my goal. However one has to put in his time with resistance before this becomes even remotely possible.

Using Bjj as an example. I'm not sure if you've ever hand the chance to "roll" with a high level Bjj black belt, but if you have you'll know that they can often effortlessly out grapple people with several years experience who may be much larger then they are.

Now that's not what they looked like the first time they started grappling. They resisted, and used force and wasted lot's of energy. But now, because they did that, because they constantly faced the resistance with the goal of being better next time, they improved.

This is also what the UFC, and other MMA competitions have done with unarmed fighting. They have constantly faced resistance, in an attempt to get better. Watching MMA on television, seeing two guys of similar physicality and ability fight you can't always tell that. However if you see them spar with lessor competitors, they can effortlessly handle them.

Two guys of the same ability with opposing will, will always create a struggle. That is what a "fight" is. However the intended goal of martial technique should be to easily defeat those who are untrained of your same physicality. Or to be able to achieve a victory against someone untrained who is larger then you.

My apologies for the long post.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 07-20-2009, 04:13 PM   #82
Marc Abrams
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

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Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Yeah, I think the only appropriate response to a knife being drawn on one is to draw a weapon of superior force (gun), or run like hell.

What are you talking about Marc? I look GOOD in tights!
Ricky:

I would agree, I think we all looked DAMN GOOD ! The girls certainly could accurately gauge our potential . Still took a lot of grief from friends. That usually ended when I invited them to "dance with me" on the mats. I always said that those big guys who played with bigger balls throwing them through hoops were simply engaged in a contest of over-compensation!!!!

Marc Abrams
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:14 PM   #83
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
My memory is not very good anymore, so I can't remember the names, but I've seen at least a few MMA fights where the opponants where evenly matched, yet you didn't really see what I would call struggle when they matched each other on the ground. What I saw was an endless flow from one position to another...some of the best scrambles I have ever seen!

Best,
Ron
Exceptions don't make rules even though all rules have them.

Watching someone like Carlos Newton who is a master grappler and known for his smooth ability can make you think that maybe at a high level, struggle or fighting doesn't exist, even with people who are at the same ability level.

there are several fights under Newton's belt that are breath taking. Like Newton v.s Sakuraba. Where both guys decided to "play" the grappling game. When two master technicians meet, they may choose to see "who's better" at the said game. If the game is high level positional grappling, it will look as if there is not struggle, simply transition.

Then you can watch that same guy face someone who is not willing to play that game and again see a fight or struggle. Example: Newton v.s. Hughes. Those guys are similar in physicality and ability in their perspective styles, however Matt Hughes chooses to play the pick them up and smash them down style of fighting with Newton. Hughes is a master technician, however their fight doesn't look like seamless position changes, it looks like one guy picking the other up and slamming him, and it worked for him twice.

It's easy to confuse the choice to play a specific game like Aikido Jiyuwaza, or positional grappling, with actual fighting. This is one of the major mistakes made by the Aikido community.

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Old 07-20-2009, 05:39 PM   #84
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

I suppose I just think all approaches have positives and negatives. (I was attempting to be evenhanded and came off as a critic - oh well, my apologies.) Regardless, I plan to learn more aiki to avoid a whole lot more of the struggle while doing that kind of work - than _just_ trying to make aikido more of an MMA approach with a weapons context. I only mentioned it at all because well this is the place to discuss how to go about "training" after all. I'm sure everyone's approach is the best they have found so far (not too many people stick with the not-as-good ways for them). -Rob
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:23 PM   #85
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I suppose I just think all approaches have positives and negatives. (I was attempting to be evenhanded and came off as a critic - oh well, my apologies.) Regardless, I plan to learn more aiki to avoid a whole lot more of the struggle while doing that kind of work - than _just_ trying to make aikido more of an MMA approach with a weapons context. I only mentioned it at all because well this is the place to discuss how to go about "training" after all. I'm sure everyone's approach is the best they have found so far (not too many people stick with the not-as-good ways for them). -Rob
Sorry if It read otherwise. I didn't take your comments to be criticism Rob.

It's simply that most people look at the work we've been doing and comment on the force and struggle, not understanding the goal behind the work.

Your comment about people sticking with the best method they've yet to find is astute

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Old 07-21-2009, 09:17 AM   #86
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Hi Chris, good examples, and good fights. Can't argue with your logic!
Best,
Ron

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