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Old 07-14-2009, 10:08 PM   #26
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Don I don't think he was referring to a movie per se as a "background" clip shown before a fight -maybe on pride v saku or someone like that?
Yes, this is correct. Sorry for not making it clear enough. In Japan, these fights are shown prime time on national tv. As we all know, individual fights can be 5 seconds or even less. So the promoters seem to try to come up with things to fill the time, thus occasionally very extended "background" clips.
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Old 07-14-2009, 11:34 PM   #27
Michael Varin
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Submission, defenses, and positional control are 100% relevant to the UFC. Is it the predominate style practiced by MMA practitioners? I have no idea, however any hand to hand combat sport trained in an alive fashion (judo, boxing, bjj, wrestling, sambo, etc) is 100% relevant in the UFC.
I respect your opinion, Don. And you may be correct.

I haven't been around the mma scene for a while, but I do watch the UFC and WEC fairly regularly. In the past year or so, the most common submission I've seen is the guillotine, with the rear naked choke being a very distant second. Far more fights end by decision, KO, or TKO.

I agree that position is important, but most ground and pounders are more than comfortable (and effective) working out of the guard. And I never said ground and pounders are exclusively "wrestlers." It is the safer approach to ground fighting.

Jujigatame and basically all other joint lock submissions are now seldom used and almost never successful. I will concede that most fighters will need a certain degree of awareness of these techniques, but it is very evident that they are "low percentage" techniques and not necessary within the context.

I don't know how useful these statistic are, but thought I'd put them up here for discusions sake. I wish they had them broken down further.

http://www.sherdog.com/stats/fightstats/matchstats-ufc

If aikido were "trained in an alive fashion" would it be 100% relevant to UFC? Why/why not?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 07-15-2009, 03:27 AM   #28
Aristeia
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post

Jujigatame and basically all other joint lock submissions are now seldom used and almost never successful.
Michael can you clarify what you see the implication of this being?

Quote:
If aikido were "trained in an alive fashion" would it be 100% relevant to UFC? Why/why not?
imo if aikido were trained live, and with a focus on an mma ruleset/context it would be completely relevent to UFC. It would also no longer look like Aikido

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 07-15-2009, 06:14 AM   #29
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I respect your opinion, Don. And you may be correct.

I haven't been around the mma scene for a while, but I do watch the UFC and WEC fairly regularly. In the past year or so, the most common submission I've seen is the guillotine, with the rear naked choke being a very distant second. Far more fights end by decision, KO, or TKO.

I agree that position is important, but most ground and pounders are more than comfortable (and effective) working out of the guard. And I never said ground and pounders are exclusively "wrestlers." It is the safer approach to ground fighting.

Jujigatame and basically all other joint lock submissions are now seldom used and almost never successful. I will concede that most fighters will need a certain degree of awareness of these techniques, but it is very evident that they are "low percentage" techniques and not necessary within the context.

I don't know how useful these statistic are, but thought I'd put them up here for discusions sake. I wish they had them broken down further.

http://www.sherdog.com/stats/fightstats/matchstats-ufc

If aikido were "trained in an alive fashion" would it be 100% relevant to UFC? Why/why not?
If you think BJJ is mostly submission then you don't understand bjj. BJJ is about position and control on the ground. It's not about the deadly guard, its not about the omoplata, or triangle choke. It's about securing and controlling a dominate position on the ground. Once you are there you can submit, ground and pound, or you can gouge your opponents eyes out.

Who is better to ground in pound from inside the guard then someone who spends most of his time inside the guard and knows the risks of his position?

My favorite techniques in bjj are not submissions. Submissions are like little gems of fortune that show up now and then. Most punches thrown are jabs, but that doesn't mean that uppercuts are not relevant. It just means they are harder to setup.

Further more, to say only a RNC makes it seem like this doesn't require extensive training to be effective. It's like saying, well it's only ikkyo and any moron with 5 minutes of training can do it. While technically true, with proper practice in positioning, control, and purpose you can set it up and execute it MUCH better.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-15-2009, 11:49 AM   #30
Suru
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Have fun in the Ferrari!
I'll have great fun searching the globe for one that's automatic, which defeats the entire purpose. I've only driven standard on the open road once. I would need a new transmission every month! But it would all be worth it for the conspicuous consumption aspect: I would impress every lion and rhino.

Drew
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Old 07-15-2009, 02:44 PM   #31
Michael Varin
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
If you think BJJ is mostly submission then you don't understand bjj. BJJ is about position and control on the ground. It's not about the deadly guard, its not about the omoplata, or triangle choke. It's about securing and controlling a dominate position on the ground. Once you are there you can submit, ground and pound, or you can gouge your opponents eyes out.
What have we here?

Is this the first does BJJ work in a "real fight" thread, accompanied by all the defensiveness typically displayed by aikidoists?

I never said, nor do I think that BJJ is mostly submissions, however it is undeniable that submissions are intrinsic to BJJ, as is the notion of using the guard to win despite being on your back.

I'm still curious about your answer to my earlier question.

If aikido were "trained in an alive fashion" would it be 100% relevant to UFC? Why/why not?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 07-15-2009, 04:07 PM   #32
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
You do realise that striking is back to the fore only because all the fighters now have a very strong grappling base right? I agree Brock is going to be hard to out wrestle -makes sense given he a a wrestler and huge. He may still be vulnerable to some subs but the setup is crucial.
Sure I would agree with that to a point. Striking actually never "went" anywhere... The UFC is just more balanced now. To clarify... Striking "sets up" everything and more than 50% of the time is the primary means of winning...

Quote:
waitaminnut. Karate is popular in the ufc? Other than Machida who else is using karate? (and I don't mean who else took somse karate lessons for a while - who is actually using it?)
Well perhaps I was getting ahead of myself LOL but I can tell you that every place I have visited since Machida won is dusting off some of the old "dated" techniques/methods...I know I am preaching to the choir here but the folks on the sport side of MMA are always looking for an edge...

Quote:
lets pout the karate thing to one side and agree that muay thai is effective in the octogon. Do you see any differnce between how striking is trained in a muay thai club and an aikido dojo? It's not enough for folks to simply say "well we'd do more atemi and be effective" it's all about how you train. The whole aliveness thing. I agree with Kevin,Aikido and MMA have very differnent purposes and to compare them is a little silly. Moreover I think these types of conversations tragically undervalue aikido which is a shame.
Of course I see a distinction Sensei Fooks... and let me take you down memory lane...You and I have been talking about "aliveness training" off and on here FOR YEARS LOL My point was and still is something I did not come up with but has been drilled into me by the founder of our Aikido... To whit (and forgive me...for the 1000th time) For Aikido to be considered Budo it MUST be effective against other Martial Arts...(and not just other branches of Aikido) Otherwise "It's just dancing"

I say this with all due respect to you, Kevin, Saotome Shihan, and Ledyard...

So far the only way I have been able to gauge the effectiveness of my practice in order to live up to the Principles of Aikido is to practice against other skilled Martial Artists...I have found that I have much to learn and understand about how to apply the principles of Aikido with Martial effect LOL

I totally agree with folks like Dan Harden and other some folks here (sight unseen mind you but I trust the posters here who have experianced it) Aikido without Aiki "Power" or Atemi is Martially suspect... So I don't think the Martial Goals of BJJ MMA or Aikido are any different at all...Just the Budo Approach and there is nothing shameful about that. I also empathy though for those that think that Aikido is above Martial Intent or better than Budo and I pray that they never have to put this arrogance to the test (to some poor Aikidoka's undue harm)...I personally have seen a few broken jaws and knew one dead guy who mistakenly thought Aikido was "above all that"

William Hazen
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Old 07-15-2009, 05:41 PM   #33
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
I respect your opinion, Don. And you may be correct.

I haven't been around the mma scene for a while, but I do watch the UFC and WEC fairly regularly. In the past year or so, the most common submission I've seen is the guillotine, with the rear naked choke being a very distant second. Far more fights end by decision, KO, or TKO.

I agree that position is important, but most ground and pounders are more than comfortable (and effective) working out of the guard. And I never said ground and pounders are exclusively "wrestlers." It is the safer approach to ground fighting.

Jujigatame and basically all other joint lock submissions are now seldom used and almost never successful. I will concede that most fighters will need a certain degree of awareness of these techniques, but it is very evident that they are "low percentage" techniques and not necessary within the context.

I don't know how useful these statistic are, but thought I'd put them up here for discusions sake. I wish they had them broken down further.

http://www.sherdog.com/stats/fightstats/matchstats-ufc

If aikido were "trained in an alive fashion" would it be 100% relevant to UFC? Why/why not?
Like I was saying earlier, during my Combatives instruction we show the evolution of the UFC to illustrate exactly what you are accessing above. This is important to understand. UFC has evolved for a number of reasons. Mainly because an increase in knowledge and skills AND because of the evolution of the rules and refereeing philosophies.

BJJ is a very relevant methodology to practice for UFC type fights, but I think if I were training for the UFC i'd work much differently than I do in a BJJ class as we really OVER TRAIN many things in BJJ that are not necessary to be successful in the UFC.

If your game is stand up, then you don't need to know a bunch of submissions, you simply need to know how to escape them and avoid getting into bad positions and how to defend against them. Learning to stall is a good skill too so the ref will stand the fight back up and you can continue your game.

This assessment is not meant to take anything away from the fighters and what they do as martial artist, they simply understand how to train properly for their desired endstate! How many Martial Artist can really say that they understand this or even have an desired goal at all that is deeper than "getting a black belt"?

Once you look at training in terms of methodologies, begin to understand pedagogy your training starts to make a little more sense (or not!).

The UFC example does a good job of helping us demonstrate and understand this issue!

Quote:
If aikido were "trained in an alive fashion" would it be 100% relevant to UFC? Why/why not?
Well I think probably not, or maybe yes?

I think it depends on how you train and what your definition of Aikido.

I think not. MMA Gyms (the good ones) have developed and evolved pretty much as "Open source" schools and have adapted their training to be pretty efficient means of delivery of skill sets for the UFC environment.

So, if you trained to be 100% relevant to the UFC, well you'd spend a couple of years evolving your practice to look like a MMA gym..cept you'd have hakama, grey mats, and a Kamiza. (and you'd probably ditch the Hakama! That is a huge investment to reach a conclusion that could be adopted from good, exsisting methodolgies such as those practiced at say "The Pit".

I think what most folks in AIkido focus on is the "cultural" aspects of MMA, that is the Tapout, tatoos, black and red mats, angry loud music etc and dismiss the actual training that is going on.

I think it is important to separate cultural issues from actual training methodologies when assessing "effectiveness" of training.

It is hard for us to do cause we like to identify with a cultural aspect like hakama or tapout shirts!

In my club, Pentagon Combatives Association, we are based on BJJ since it is a very good methodology for learning Jiu Jitsu skills. We do however have a more martial or military focus when training vice sport. We will train slightly differently than sport schools from time to time because we are military focused.

My point is, you adapt your training environment to fit the objectives that you are trying to accomplish.

Good discussion!

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Old 07-15-2009, 05:51 PM   #34
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
If you think BJJ is mostly submission then you don't understand bjj. BJJ is about position and control on the ground. It's not about the deadly guard, its not about the omoplata, or triangle choke. It's about securing and controlling a dominate position on the ground. Once you are there you can submit, ground and pound, or you can gouge your opponents eyes out.

Who is better to ground in pound from inside the guard then someone who spends most of his time inside the guard and knows the risks of his position?

My favorite techniques in bjj are not submissions. Submissions are like little gems of fortune that show up now and then. Most punches thrown are jabs, but that doesn't mean that uppercuts are not relevant. It just means they are harder to setup.

Further more, to say only a RNC makes it seem like this doesn't require extensive training to be effective. It's like saying, well it's only ikkyo and any moron with 5 minutes of training can do it. While technically true, with proper practice in positioning, control, and purpose you can set it up and execute it MUCH better.
Don is correct. When I started BJJ I was all about the cool submissions. Now that I am an "experienced" BJJer, I care alot more about the "aiki" aspects of BJJ and realize how important they are. Getting ahead of the OODA loop, transistioning, proprioception, timing, pressure, breathing, posture and all that good stuff. that is where the money is made in BJJ if you want to evolve and get better.

The fundamentals of BJJ apply in UFC. Dominance is paramount.

Guess what.... these same fundamentals are true in aikido as well.

Problem is, we are having the wrong discusision when you are talking about training principles or long range improvement.

When you are talking about winning in the UFC, yes the principles apply, but your training has to focus on strategy and tactics so training methodology is much different than most of us do.

You see the same thing in Judo. those training for olympics will focus on different aspects than those training Judo for life.

Principles of kuzushi are the same in MMA, Judo, and Aikido.

Again, we have to be careful to not assume a paradigm based on our limited understanding of our habits or methodology of study.

If I could get all I wanted in my training in one dojo, i'd go to one dojo. The fact is I go to ALOT of different places to assimilate and learn the things I feel I need to learn. My latest pursuit is in Yoga which I am learning quite a bit about my body as I go!

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Old 07-15-2009, 06:00 PM   #35
Suru
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

With Aikido's anti-fighting philosophy, and BJJ's or even Tomiki's competitive philosophies, how does a cross-trainer reconcile this dichotomy? My guess is the cross-trainer has to stick with Aikido philosophy while having a greater arsenal of techniques, or lose Aikido altogether.

Drew
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Old 07-15-2009, 06:11 PM   #36
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
With Aikido's anti-fighting philosophy, and BJJ's or even Tomiki's competitive philosophies, how does a cross-trainer reconcile this dichotomy?
There's no dichotomy, or if there is, is a false one.

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Old 07-15-2009, 07:00 PM   #37
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
With Aikido's anti-fighting philosophy, and BJJ's or even Tomiki's competitive philosophies, how does a cross-trainer reconcile this dichotomy? My guess is the cross-trainer has to stick with Aikido philosophy while having a greater arsenal of techniques, or lose Aikido altogether.

Drew
Well I think it depends on how you view the whole "anti-fighting" thing.

I think aikido is about fighitng, that is the whole point of the art and practice. I was just listening to a podcast on itunes the other days with Ellis Amdur, it is worth a listen to get his view on the nature and view of aikido and how O'Sensei's philosophies and views shaped aikido later in his life.

I think there is a key difference between "anti-fighting" and "understanding fighting" or even "skillfull fighting".

To me, a anti fighting paradigm implies that there is no fighting involved at all or we have to dismiss certain aspects of fighting out of ethical concerns. I don't think this is correct personally.

Skillfull fighting or a "compassionate fighting" paradigm I think is more correct. That is, we are not limited in what we can study or choose as possible actions, but if we develop or hone ourselves to be better, well in theory we can make better choices, or atleast expand our ability to make appropriate choices when we can.

I study a whole range of violent actions (I am a soldier). My understanding of these things, and the abilitiy to use them comes with great responsibility. The fact that I have skills and abilities, and knowledge in these areas does not make me a less ethical person by studying them. I think it actually makes me more so as I gain a better appreciation for the damage that they can do and that I can do, therefore, I think about it more and think about the choices I have along the spectrum of violence.

Again, just as in the UFC verses Budo example, I think you have to separate out the ethical/cultural frame from the skill frame. Skills are skills and do not possess any morale base at all, Skills are clinical, scientific, and procedural.

Ethics, philosophy, compasion, and mindfullness can help us make choices to employ or not employ these skills.

When we lump it all together, we get a huge confusing mess and we end up with folks doing interpretive crap that I simply can't stand...and that is when our practices go awry!

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Old 07-15-2009, 08:09 PM   #38
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
What have we here?

Is this the first does BJJ work in a "real fight" thread, accompanied by all the defensiveness typically displayed by aikidoists?

I never said, nor do I think that BJJ is mostly submissions, however it is undeniable that submissions are intrinsic to BJJ, as is the notion of using the guard to win despite being on your back.

I'm still curious about your answer to my earlier question.

If aikido were "trained in an alive fashion" would it be 100% relevant to UFC? Why/why not?
I fail to see how I am taking a defensive position. I am only stating what I believe to be fact from personal experience. The notion of winning though your guard is a white belt notion. It is a competition bjj notion. It is not what any serious bjj player aspires to. They aspire to be on top and control the fight. Submissions are not paramount, they are incidental. This is my personal direct experience training in bjj (In which I currently hold a blue belt). The same is true in my experience of judo. It is not about submissions or throws, it is about controlling the balance of your opponent. The throw is just there. I stopped pulling guard a year ago. I consider the guard to be a losing position. Can I submit guys from my guard? Yes. I however consider it to be a secondary goal. The primary goal is to reverse the position and gain dominance. My coach told me that for almost 2 years before it sunk in. I believe him now and the experience of myself and the club competitors proves it.

As Kevin stated you train differently for MMA. But you are still training bjj. You still practice passes, sweeps, pummeling, reversals, takedowns (yea bjj has those), and yes even submissions. What is the difference? Well, I like to practice cool stuff for fun. If I'm just training sport BJJ I might spend an hour working on some cool half guard submission stuff or a cool sweep from a spider guard. If I was training for a MMA fight I would train a small subset of white belt bjj. This would be technical standups, simple sweeps. controlling the opponent from my guard (tie ups and head control), passing the open guard, takedowns, and maintaining top position.

Would aikido work if trained alive? I will say no. The reason? The range of fight in which most aikido techniques I see are practiced is rarely a range of fighting used in MMA. I would place aikido in the trapping range. It is a very quick split second range. This makes aikido as a base very limiting for MMA. Could diligent practice make aikido useful for MMA? I would say yes. I simply think the amount of work it would take makes it infeasible. Too much of the art would need to be replaced or removed to be useful in the cage.

This is in stark contrast to bjj, where the majority of your training can be directly applied to mma. 85-90% of a bjj practice is directly applicable to use in MMA. I'd say that even trained with aliveness that only 10-15% of aikido would be. There are better places to learn striking, there are better places to learn clinch fighting, that only leaves that weird and often split second trapping range. I wouldn't place my money on a range of combat that can almost be skipped. With bjj you only need to supplement some form of striking and add mma sparing to be well rounded and do well in the ring. With aikido you would need to add some form of striking and some for of grappling. The most useful parts of aikido would only cover the range between the striking and into the clinch.

Could this be useful if you were diligent at it and had enough time to be really good at it? Hell yes. Movements like Ikkyo or breath throws could have a significant advantage and we see these happen on accident from time to time in the ring. Would I spend my time on this? Not when there are high percentage easier to perform techniques that are hard to defend (trips, judo style throws and single/double legs).

Another way to look at it is if your current method of practice would allow you to win a mma fight today.

Boxing - Yes
MT - yes
full contact karate - yes
judo - yes
bjj - yes
wrestling - yes

What is the common thread? These arts all master simple gross motor skill movements that are effective and efficient. They can be quickly learned (not mastered, but learned) and applied almost immediately in a alive environment with minimal risk to your partner. This also means that after developing a base in one you can spend just a few short months training another and add a whole new dimension to your ability. The proof is in the MMA fighters that were all bjj or wrestling suddenly getting huge gains in striking after spending a 6 months to a year training under good instructors.

The same can not be said about aikido. I can not teach you nikkyo in 5 or 6 minutes and have you doing it on a fully resisting partner 10 minutes later. Someone is going to the hospital. Likewise you couldn't go visit a top aikido sensei for 6 months and have a large impact on your ability to perform in mma (technique wise). The could help you in other areas, such as maintaining distance, movement, breathing, etc.

I'd say aikido can help your MMA ability the same way it could help your golf game. That is indirectly. If you tried to apply it directly you would find yourself with very little to actually practice.

Honestly, its my same reasoning as to why I don't recommend it for people who are only looking for self defense. If you can perform the majority of it at full power and full speed against a resisting opponent in training, then you are not prepared to do it in 'real life' or the ring. And I don't believe that much of aikido can be trained in that manner. You would have to cut out much of what makes aikido unique and would be left with a weak form of ju-jutsu.

In time I think MMA fighters will either discover or bring into their training the most useful parts of aikido for their sport. Just as the guys in my gym have learned the usefulness of the small pieces of aikido I have brought to their bjj training. It's not a matter of "is this art good for MMA", its a matter of "is this technique useful and high percentage in mma" and "can I make this work for myself in mma". Most of the techniques of bjj can be taught and applied in a rudimentary fashion quickly (as little as one day of training) for a mma fighter. I can teach someone the basics of maintaing the top position, or using a choke, or a sweep or the guard. They can be sparing using that the same day. Sure they will need a lot of work to really know the movement. The same can not be said with aikido. This is why it will be hard to train with aliveness. If you taught a new aikido throw to someone for the first time, your chances of having them spar using it in the next 10 minutes are flat out zero. Unless you are training GSP or something.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:20 PM   #39
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Does anybody here in this forum have any experience in 'the cage?'
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:21 PM   #40
Jason Morgan
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Stuart Walsh wrote: View Post
I couldn't resist These aikido vs MMA discussions always remind me of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
I think this is a much better MMA Aikido video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxm09n5lIMk
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:52 PM   #41
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Does anybody here in this forum have any experience in 'the cage?'
What do you mean by "cage"?

I have fought a couple of "cage" type matches as well as "no point, no time limit submission only fights. As well as a fair amount of CQB experience with the military practicing "combatives" in a VERY alive environment.

I am considering entering the All Army Combatives Tournament this year in which we fight "Pride Style". Probably won't though primarily because of my age and the rash of injuries lately. If I do, I will have to adapt my training significantly since I am primarily a grappler and I need to work on my Muay Thai skills which suck.

ALL three have the same foundations, yet you employ strategies and tactics differently.

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Old 07-16-2009, 12:04 AM   #42
Michael Varin
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Don,

Thank you for your reply. It was well thought out.

In fact, I almost completely agree, with only a few exceptions.

I found this interesting:
Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
There are better places to learn striking, there are better places to learn clinch fighting, that only leaves that weird and often split second trapping range. I wouldn't place my money on a range of combat that can almost be skipped.
The question now becomes:

Why do these "useless" techniques exist? Why were they ever created?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Not when there are high percentage easier to perform techniques that are hard to defend (trips, judo style throws and single/double legs).
Just to clarify, do you consider bjj joint lock submissions to be "high percentage" in the mma context?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 07-16-2009, 02:15 AM   #43
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Why do these "useless" techniques exist? Why were they ever created?
Trapping range makes more sense when one of the participants in the fight has a weapon. So it should not come as a surprise that that's exactly the historical context in which Japanese ju jutsu was developed. (Although it wasn't called 'ju jutsu' at the time.)
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Old 07-16-2009, 03:26 AM   #44
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
What do you mean by "cage"?

I have fought a couple of "cage" type matches as well as "no point, no time limit submission only fights. As well as a fair amount of CQB experience with the military practicing "combatives" in a VERY alive environment.

I am considering entering the All Army Combatives Tournament this year in which we fight "Pride Style". Probably won't though primarily because of my age and the rash of injuries lately. If I do, I will have to adapt my training significantly since I am primarily a grappler and I need to work on my Muay Thai skills which suck.

ALL three have the same foundations, yet you employ strategies and tactics differently.
Yeah, that's the kind of experience I was asking about.
Thanks Kevin.
Anybody else?
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Old 07-16-2009, 04:58 AM   #45
jss
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Why do these "useless" techniques exist? Why were they ever created?
And here's a nice thread: Functional Origins of Aikido/Daito-Ryu Techniques.
And from post #11:
Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
1. Re a discussion of the origins of DR, more than a little at variance to the orthodox story - my book, Hidden in Plain Sight. I'm guessing publishing date will be in the fall. [That would be the fall of 2008. (jss)]
2. Paul - the techniques were/are the best one could ever come up with regarding empty-hand vs. weapon. Nothing absurd about them. It's just that anyone of experience (those who made the kata) were not sanguine about their survival chances against an expert with a blade - but one still did what one could. They would still be applicable today in similar situations.
3. Jujutsu was an amalgam of those techniques, retrofitted, so to speak, + sumo + sophisticated body alignment/organization/ki-kokyu type training - each ryu emphasizing one or the other of these, and further researching them. (remember that most jujutsu ryu had a LOT of weapons training as well - sometimes far more than empty-handed training).
4. As I (and a few other notables ) have written, the ukemi side of training includes the absorbing of force, running it thru your body and then doing various things to take or regain advantage over tori (not going to repeat all those threads again! - please God, not again!). So I do think that Ueshiba adopted some of the particular techniques (kotegaeshi, for example) as training methods in "running forces," so to speak.
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Old 07-16-2009, 06:38 AM   #46
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Why do these "useless" techniques exist? Why were they ever created?
As stated above, I would say weapons. I can't see me wanting to clinch when my opponent has a knife, sword, jo, etc. Further more, if I had a weapon, let's say a sword) and someone was grabbing my wrist to prevent me from using it, I would want to engage in trapping style movements to free myself, off-balance my attacker and then slice him into bits. I wouldn't want to abandon my sword and try to clinch unless I had no option.

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Just to clarify, do you consider bjj joint lock submissions to be "high percentage" in the mma context?
Only at the top end of the sport (say bj penn and other high level bjj/sub grappling players) would I consider the majority of submissions high percentage. I feel they are lower percentage then in a judo or bjj match because of the lack of clothing. If you added clothing I would consider them high percentage, but still would have caveats to using them. Even in pure bjj matches I tend to stray away from joint locks and focus mostly on maintaining the top position and if a choke presents itself, taking it. In fact, I'm hard press to remember more then about 2 times in the last few weeks I've even attempted a joint lock in a bjj sparing session. I spend all my time trying to sweep to the top and control the position.

The majority of joint locks in bjj are bad for MMA because they either are attempted from a inferior position (the guard) or give up a superior position (armbar from the mount). This is the same reason I don't like leg locks from inside a person's guard. Falling back and giving up your position should never be an option imho. This isn't to say that they don't work. I just think it is a bad strategy and one that leaves you open to losing should you fail. Using bjj to get the mount and putting your fists though the guys head is the most effective use of bjj I can think of for MMA.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-16-2009, 07:13 AM   #47
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
What have we here?

Is this the first does BJJ work in a "real fight" thread, accompanied by all the defensiveness typically displayed by aikidoists?
Hi Michael, you do know who you are typing to, correct? Don would be the LAST person on this board to fall into that characterization.

I might be the first...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-16-2009, 07:42 AM   #48
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Don and Kevin, excellent posts, and you have both increased my understanding immensely.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 07-16-2009, 08:50 AM   #49
Keith Larman
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

Just to toss in an observation from the uber-cheap seats here...

A few years ago I was out at a restaurant with some friends. One is a BJJ guy, young, fairly new, fairly enamored with his BJJ as the be-all, end-all of "martial effectiveness" evidenced by UFC, etc. style bouts. Also there were a few guys I know from different, varied arts, mostly Japanese, some koryu, some with BJJ backgrounds as well, and so forth. A few were LEO and a few others were military. The young, enthusiastic guy went on and on about how he could come in fast at the legs and take any one of us down. We all looked at each other then slowly each on of us brought out the blades we'd already all taken out and were holding under the table. Of course mine was my steak knife I had on the table all along, but hey, I had the presence of mine to pull it off the table quietly and drop it in my lap as he went on thinking I'd make a point... Great minds and all that.

I also know that at least three of them were otherwise legally armed with vastly more powerful weapons that they didn't pull out in a crowded restaurant (imagine the mob scene then...).

Now this doesn't go to any sort of discussion like Aikido vs. BJJ or anything like that. But I found it interesting that each one of us felt the need to make the same point. To me what I think is interesting about a lot of Japanese arts is the inherent assumption that each person is otherwise likely armed. There are a lot of movements that involve grabs, etc. which makes sense in an environment where many would have a tanto thrust in their obi at all times. You can't just go in with your head down if the other guy is pulling a tanto out behind his back. One has to try to isolate and control the arms/hands before closing too much of the distance. Or keep them extended out so they can't effectively bring the weapon into play. The emphasis on kuzushi ASAP is important on so many levels!

There's a lot of things you can do martially if you *assume* the other guy isn't armed. But that's a major assumption and was obviously quite wrong in the particular situation I described above. If for some odd reason he was a "bad guy" and had tried to go after any person at that table he would have been in serious trouble. That stuff works great up until you realize the guy you're grappling with isn't going to tap out but is instead shoving a sharpened object between your ribs. You may be able to take a few light punches there, but how tough are your major arteries?

Two guys wearing only tights in a closed ring don't tend to have shanks hidden in their pants so that opens the door to a lot of things you'd otherwise be insane to try if you didn't know if the other guy had a 12" steel blade behind his back.

So is it any surprise that many things done in a ring environment (no weapons thank you) aren't part of the core curriculum of arts that operated under a completely different assumed context?

To me the real point of most of these discussions is that context matters. Aikido in UFC strikes me as quite silly -- it is too easy for an experienced, wily attacker to bust up the "operating system" with powerful, devastating and direct attacks. The underlying aiki skills *can* be very useful (having wrestled, played in Judo, and boxed a bit) but that's true of all things as has already been pointed out. Just not the right "tool belt" to be wearing in a ring.

But to me none of this denigrates aikido or any other art for that matter. You just have to keep things in perspective. The aiki arts evolved in a very different context. Now we can have discussions about how one should train in order to be the best aikidoka possible, but that will assume some understanding of what that really means. Personally I enjoy randori, jiuwaza, and I get out and work on the mat with people from outside my aikido. I'm not trying to learn their art, just trying to learn to expand my understanding of the art I train in.

But if I was forced at gun point to compete in a UFC style match I'd be looking for MMA figthers to train with. And I'd be going back to old greco wrestling, Judo, and my boxing experiences. And I'd hope my aikido would add refinement to my movement, positioning and application of those things.

I'll never forgot training with one guy a few years back. A student asked why we bothered with pins when pins tend to be problematic "in the real world/on the street" (fill in your favorite expression). He just smiled and said "because you're supposed to break their arm and then shove your tanto into them if they're that much of a threat."

You stop them from attacking in the first place if you can. Take them down and calm them if you can't stop them first. But you have to be able to end it if you must. But that's a very different world from a ring experience.

Enough rambling for me... I normally stay out of these discussions because they're fraught with conflicting expectations and different assumed contexts. Just be honest about why you're doing what you're doing. I'm not training for UFC. I find value in the things that go beyond the waza themselves -- the internal structure work, the balance, the grace, the flow, the difficulty, the notions of a larger philosophical context to my training, and so forth. And we all weight those things differently. So should anyone be surprised that intelligent people will differ on what is "best" for themselves?

Best of luck folks. Just be honest with yourself and let everyone else figure it out for themselves...

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Old 07-16-2009, 09:32 AM   #50
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Re: Aikido in the UFC

I went to a Brazilian Jujitsu class a while ago on the request of a friend. (He in return visited our dojo.)
What I found interesting about the grapple art is that it is wasn't like what some aikidoka told me it was like. I mean we've had a bunch of UFC wanna-be's who were meat heads that basically just stopped by to make fun of our "silly skirts".( These people never lasted past one class at our dojo.)
What I found interesting is that the grapple art was very much like Aikido intellectually. It required a lot of intuition when it came to the movement of the human body. In Brazilian jujitsu it seemed like the two people work in unison, almost like the other person's body was a puzzle and you were moving to solve the puzzle-- thus submit them and win. Unlike Aikido, there is no nage or uke. Both are the same, in that light it is like Aikido I think; they are equals going into the bought. What is different is that it is a competitive art.

Hanging out with them also brought light to me on how strong the homni stance is.
In Brazilian jujitsu you do something called "shooting" to get your opponent on the ground so you can grapple. You basically both stand in a horse stance, and one of you shoots their upper body into the other's hips with your hands around the back of their knees and your shoulder against their hip joint.
Well me and the person I was working with were messing around with shooting and they asked about the stances we had in aikido, and I explained the homni. They then proceeded to shoot at me when I stood in homni. I was surprised. I couldn't fall over in this position. In fact, the harder they pushed against me the lower I sunk, until we were at eye level, at that point my opponent was so off balance any movement from me knocked them over. They seemed to have fun with it. But I had a feeling that if they weren't my friend they'd get annoyed with that homni crap pretty quick. lol

Of course Brazilian jujitsu is just one art UFC guys train in to be good for competition. And when all is said and done with UFC I think it is no longer martial art, all the resemblance of the martial elements from it's influences (like jujitsu) are stripped away, and only the competitive elements are left.

Last edited by RED : 07-16-2009 at 09:41 AM.
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