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Old 07-27-2009, 06:06 AM   #26
dps
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Quote:
Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Quote:
Cord: Do you answer every question with a question?
Blind Man: Do you question every answer?
Cord: Aww, talking to you is like talking to a wall.
Blind Man: Buddha once sat before a wall, and when he arose he was enlightened.
-Circle of Iron
Gee, I hope when I finally get the book Professor Goldsbury recommends and open it, its not a mirror.
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Old 07-27-2009, 06:42 AM   #27
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Hello David,

No. I think you will find the book very illuminating. Actually, if you look at the front cover, you will find that it is Volume One. The book is a translation of part of a two-volume original that was published in Japanese and has gone through several editions (I have two 2-volume sets of different editions). I suppose that Stan Pranin planned to issue a second volume, but did not for various reasons, probably having to do with finance. Rather than simply buy the book (from Amazon, for example), I suggest that you take out a subscription to Aikido Journal and so receive the book as a gift, together with a CD with all the back issues of Aiki News. I think the material on the CD is as impressive as the interviews in the book and will take you a considerable time to work through. But it will be worth it.

I think that the second book that Dan Harden recommended is as ground-breaking as the first. Stan Pranin sought out and interviewed some of those who knew Morihei Ueshiba, when he trained with Sokaku Takeda in Hokkaido and afterwards. Some of the people who were interviewed in the first book stated quite openly that Morihei Ueshiba was practising Daito-ryu in the early Kobukan Dojo. Postwar histories have played down this aspect and even now, I frequently hear that 'O Sensei radically changed his aikido, even when he was alive'. Well, he might have done, but the 'radical change' proponents usually tend to ignore what went before. Similarly with Noriaki Inoue, who was Ueshiba's nephew.

The third book is different from the first two. It is a translation of a Japanese work, which I have also read, and presents a totally biased view of Onisaburo Deguchi. It is hagiography and Ueshiba appears only rarely. Stan published the English translation of the Japanese original, but I have found that this original needs to be placed in its proper historical context. However, the book is interesting for its allusions to the general Omoto belief system.

Best wishes,

PAG

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Gee, I hope when I finally get the book Professor Goldsbury recommends and open it, its not a mirror.

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 07-27-2009 at 06:46 AM.

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Old 07-27-2009, 08:32 AM   #28
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Were Aikido people to purchase and read Stans three books;
"Aikido Masters-prewar students of Morihei Ueshiba"
"The Great Onisaburo Deguchi"
"Conversations with Daito Ryu masters"

They would come away being enriched by an incredible body of research that can no longer be duplicated- as it contains interview with the people who were there. I will also give you much to think about in how the art was created and where the two pillars of the founding of Aikido; Daito ryu and Omoto tie-together.
It may blow up some peoples assumptions, and "beliefs" reinforce others, but in general aid in having a broader knowledge to bring to the practice they love.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/catalog/?category=2

Check out Jun's interview of Stan here- it might be startling for some- who have believed that O-sensei was a master of multiple Koryu and that was the source of the founding of aikido. In short do your homework and you will be very glad you did. Really. Then come back and talk about it and flesh it out some more.
Cheers
Dan
With respect and apologies Dan...

I have chimed in on this before, and will do so again here to provide a balance to Dan's continued reference to the above materials. I do not mean to disparage anyone with my comments. As a practice, I generally do not mention people by name who do not participate here on AikiWeb. However, it is important to note that I challenged Stanley Pranin both publicly and privately regarding major issues with both the presumptions and conclusions found throughout his publications and lectures. He wrote me privately (correspondence that I have retained) and ultimately banned me from his website which prevented me from contradicting him with valid information that he chooses not to acknowledge still to this day. However, the point of the post in not really about Mr. Pranin. I understand, of course... his research - which I wholly support - cost him plenty of time and I am sure a substantial amount of money in the process. Should his books and lectures be shown to be about as accurate as the somewhat "opinion driven" material in Abundant Peace by John Stevens, it would certainly cost him money, and change the perception of the held about the accuracy of his methods. It would definitely alter the general perception about there being Three Pillars of Aikido to which Mr. Pranin, Dan and Mike seem to hold up so often. We now better understand how to read Abundant Peace, and we are all better off for the clarifications that have come to light in the last 20 years from when I first read it back in late 1989. I believe that we would also be better off should the same clarifications come out regarding Mr. Pranin's material.

I think anyone with a clear head can see that Stanley had a specific agenda related to DRAJ, given that the positive relationship with Kondo Sensei and the money generated via that relationship might somehow muddle up his desire to pursue information that might contradict the place that he indicates DRAJ has with regards to Aikido. There are other issues related to Saito Sensei, Stanley's own Aikido teacher, and more important ones related to the actual substance of Aikido that should also be considered. Unfortunately, I am precluded from saying certain things publicly. However, I have tried to set things in motion behind the scenes which might someday bring certain information to light that would as Dan said, "...blow up some peoples assumptions, and "beliefs" reinforce others, but in general aid in having a broader knowledge to bring to the practice they love." Fortunately for us it would be Dan, Mike and Stanley's head that would mostly be effected. This would go a long way toward setting the record straight while at the same time align us all in a direction that would allow us to seek O-Sensei's art in a more direct and accessible manner. I would like to add that I have read about 95% of what Mr. Pranin has put out publicly. I helped to transcribe some of it and even went back to the source of several of his interviews to clear up some mistranslated sections before it was published. Stanley's efforts to make this information available to us should be applauded by all. I want to be clear and state that everyone should take advantage of the availability of this material and read as much of it as you can, over and over and over.

You might say that I should write a book and put it out for public consumption and debate. The truth is that I spend my time training and traveling to see my teachers when I can. The time for writing for me at least will come much later. However, it has come to my attention that information I have shared with others via private correspondence has come out in their work, information which has been well received from what I tell.

My own Perspective:
I know within my heart that each of us who participate in these discussions do so in an effort to share our respective knowledge and ideas. We each have a hope to bring everyone closer using martial arts as the common ground upon which we meet. I for one do not find anyone here is trying to subvert these forums. We each have our perceptions and views and most everyone who comes around, either as a poster to these forums or simply a reader, whether we come from different or similar backgrounds, will with enough time come to understand the personal agendas for what they are - mere reflections of an individual's collective experiences, and nothing more. I for one appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts and opinions. I am thankful and have learned much from the time and effort of those who choose to engage in civil debate, even via private correspondence when more sensitive issues arise. I contribute this post in that spirit. I hope you are able to read it in the spirit with which it was written.

FWIW

...best in training to all.

PS - sorry if this didn't read so well, or if the tone was off in any way, but I am writing on less than 3 hours sleep and in the middle of a full and consuming day. Please feel free to line up and kick me, but do so here so I don't have to look over my shoulder today.

.

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 07-27-2009 at 08:46 AM.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-27-2009, 08:59 AM   #29
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
I would like to add that I have read about 95% of what Mr. Pranin has put out publicly. I helped to transcribe some of it and even went back to the source of several of his interviews to clear up some mistranslated sections before it was published. Stanley's efforts to make this information available to us should be applauded by all. I want to be clear and state that everyone should take advantage of the availability of this material and read as much of it as you can, over and over and over.
I attempted to add something to the above paragraph but ran out of time, so here it is...

My objection is not with any of the interviews, nor much of the information he presents for review. My objections are only with the particular angle from which many of the interviews were connected, the obvious redacting of information that would alter the reader's opinions about the material, along with some of the conclusions he reached which are stated as fact but simply are not born out of the evidence made available throughout his archive and which are in direct opposition to anecdotal information from multiple credible sources which he simply chooses to disregard over and over and over.

again, FWIW...


I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-27-2009, 09:02 AM   #30
rob_liberti
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

I'm confused. Since you are not banned here, why not just post the valid information (that SP chooses not to acknowledge still to this day) right here? I'd read it. -Rob
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Old 07-27-2009, 09:22 AM   #31
Don_Modesto
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
After his question I did do a search and read some of the interviews on Aikido Journal of O'Sensei's deshi. The ones I read were kind of vague.
I agree that the Pranin books--Aikido Masters: Prewar Students of Morihei Ueshiba, and Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu--are sine qua non, must-reads (http://www.aikidojournal.com/catalog/?category=2).

As Peter encourages, the website is also excellent. There are three or four more books-worth of materials in the articles section, biographies of the founder by his son and another by a student, e.g.

I personally don't like the Deguchi Omoto book mentioned above for reasons mentioned above. Much more illuminating for me was Thomas P Nadolski, The Socio-political Background of the 1921 and 1935 Omoto Suppressions in Japan, 1975, U of Pennsylvania PhD Dissertation, University Microfilms. Also, for background on Osensei's spiritual pursuits, Helen Hardacre and Carmen Blacker are useful as well as Teeuwen and Rambelli, Buddhas and Kami.

There are also interviews available at http://aikidoonline.com/ which you may find useful.

Good luck with your research.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 07-27-2009, 10:21 AM   #32
Walker
 
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Actually, if you look at the front cover, you will find that it is Volume One. The book is a translation of part of a two-volume original that was published in Japanese and has gone through several editions (I have two 2-volume sets of different editions). I suppose that Stan Pranin planned to issue a second volume, but did not for various reasons, probably having to do with finance.
Stan has said publicly that the second volume was abandoned because sales of the first were so weak. I interpret the giveaway with subscriptions to be further indication of disappointing sales. Of course, this makes ignorance of Volume One's contents doubly distressing. Don't be a part of the problem, read the book. Actually, get two copies and take one to your dojo.

Shaun, nobody likes a tease. Stand and deliver.

-Doug Walker
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Old 07-27-2009, 12:09 PM   #33
DH
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Shaun
All due respect back. I am going to make a definitive statement that may appear negative, but I bear no ill will toward you-not even in the slightest. I for one DO appreciate our disagreements always ending with mutual respect for each others efforts.
Okay..keep that in mind please.

You have produced nothing by way of physical skills that I have ever heard of as being unusual or top shelf, nor have you written or offered any information that would cause me in the least to use you as any sort of source. I understand you feel much the same about me.So here we are, bud. I see no resolution.
1. I can come meet you and stop you in your tracks using aiki and you will say it isn't Ueshiba's aiki so that's a wasted effort.
2. I could stop your teacher and smile, but you will say that is not what Ueshiba was doing.
3. But while you claim to know what Ueshiba was dong -you won't say what "it" is. rather just what "it" isn't
4. You state there was an approved list of Ueshiba's students who were hand picked to pass on his art in it's purity- you won't tell us who is on it
5. Here now you challenge Stans conclusions but won't tell us your own or how you arrived at them.

I think I have tried to read most of what you have written, watched your teacher on video, and frankly I fail to see any substance to your rebuttals. It's all rhetoric. I am not saying there isn't something behind the curtain, just that I have yet to see it or be able to examine either your skills or your information.

My hard work and skills (such as they are) have not only been vetted, it is worth noting they have been vetted by teachers of Aikido, Daito Ryu, and ICMA as well. I offer that only as support for the claims that the now infamous "IT," does indeed cross cultures as Mike has claimed for years. Futher, that they are indeed related enough that people can train "IT" and approach their arts from the inside out using "IT" without much trouble.
Stan's work is as stated and supports itself where necessary.
So, I am open to being proved wrong and having my eyes opened. In fact I am as giddy as a school girl to train with you if you have something that can stop me. And frankly I am shocked to see you state there may be a whole corpus of information as you say-that Stan is either a) unaware of or b) has refused to look at or worse c) has been lying about for finanical gain with likes of Kondo! Wow!

Are you open for a visit? Train hands on and then sit over a looong dinner (on me) and present where and how I am wrong and Stan is off base?
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-27-2009 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 07-27-2009, 12:37 PM   #34
DH
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Quote:
I think anyone with a clear head can see that Stanley had a specific agenda related to DRAJ, given that the positive relationship with Kondo Sensei and the money generated via that relationship might somehow muddle up his desire to pursue information that might contradict the place that he indicates DRAJ has with regards to Aikido.
You know Shaun there are other possibilities for the conclusions he reached
1. The evidence pointed to DR all along and it speaks for itself as the logical conclusion.
2. The evidence you might some day present speaks to a different conclusion BUT!... Stan could remain honorable and forthright in believing his own conclusions without you alluding to financial gain as a motivating factor for dishonest work (I can't believe I'm even reading that).
Even were it so (which I would never believe) I for one would never say it in public.
I know all sorts of verifiable things of immoral behavior I could say about DR and Aikido teachers with back up...it just doesn't belong here.
I think you either need to apologise for that allegation and retract it, or now back it up. That portion of it is character assassination. It reminds me of some other stuff from another guy I read here a few years back. Surely, we can do better than this. Personally I'd rather you told me behind the scenes-and I'd check it out behind the scenes- like most budo men do- instead of placing it here.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-27-2009 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 07-27-2009, 01:04 PM   #35
Dennis Hooker
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Hello Dan and Don and everyone else. Well I like all the books and I am deeply grateful to Stan for all his hard work. Without him none of this would be done and most of what is out there is in a language I cannot speak or read so it would be lost to me. I am grateful to all those like Stan P. and Peter G. and others willing to do their due diligence and share their discovery. I will draw my own conclusions but I could not even venture a stupid opinion without the information they provide. My only time in Japan was R & R in the late 60’s and the only thing on my mind was, well let’s say not that kind of research.

DH

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

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Old 07-27-2009, 01:47 PM   #36
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Shaun
All due respect back. I am going to make a definitive statement that may appear negative, but I bear no ill will toward you-not even in the slightest. I for one DO appreciate our disagreements always ending with mutual respect for each others efforts.
Okay..keep that in mind please.
Hi Dan,
I hear ya, and accept your above statement at face value. We are not throwing stones here. Respect is always maintained. In that way, please accept that my comments are presented in the same manner as yours were.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You have produced nothing by way of physical skills that I have ever heard of as being unusual or top shelf, nor have you written or offered any information that would cause me in the least to use you as any sort of source.
Two things. First - I have never claimed to be top shelf. If I did, where would that leave my teachers or my teacher's teachers? Above the shelf, perhaps??? Much of what I claim to know I haven't even shared with my own students, so I wouldn't imagine that you would have any access to it. Even if I told you everything, you would just deny it anyway... Given that the only way any of it could actually be true is if I could stop you dead in your tracks with aiki (mine or yours, for that matter) That last part was more or less a joke, I suppose. Second - Perhaps we are the same, or perhaps we may be different in that I am not claiming to be the source of anything. I am only accept students who would be interested in training with my teachers. I don't typically ever train with casual looky-loos. Even at public seminars (not ones I teach) I merely go through the motions when working with partners who outrank me. I don't try and teach my seniors anything. I am just playing the role a capable uke. If we were to meet, I would do so only so as to learn from you, not to challenge your ideas or methods or skills or your those of your students. Experience tells me that it would take me a year or two to give proper consideration to your methods and train diligently in them on a daily basis for an extended period before agreeing on their merits and values.

You on the other hand, and this is only from an outsider's view given that we have never trained together, never really seem to mention your teachers at all. I find this uncharacteristically strange, but then again we come from different schools of thought on matters such as protocol. See, my time for outside pursuits is precious and limited. For me, if you are the greatest at what you do... say so. If there is someone greater, tell me who they are so I can skip over you and go and train directly with them. Don't take it personally, I tend to do the same thing in whatever pursuit I take on.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I understand you feel much the same about me.So here we are, bud. I see no resolution.
Actually Dan, Mike, and a whole list of others... You shouldn't be surprised to know that I would kill for the opportunity to train with you and your groups. You shouldn't be at all surprised because I have said it publicly - over and over and over...As it stands, though that is simply not possible for me at this time.If I had even close to the time or the money it would take to properly do so, I would go immediately to Japan. Abe Sensei is now 94, and there is quite a lot for me to arrange in the time remaining. That is my first and only priority. While I am forced to wait to get to train with you, I am absolutely we will get to meet.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
1. I can come meet you and stop you in your tracks using aiki and you will say it isn't Ueshiba's aiki so that's a wasted effort.
You don't even know what it is, but that doesn't mean you don't actually do it. However, I would be neither surprised nor impressed if you did anything of the sort. I would more than likely be saddened if you could not...

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
2. I could stop your teacher and smile, but you will say that is not what Ueshiba was doing.
Well, unless you have managed to sneak in on some very special classes, you have never really seen anything that any of my teachers can and are doing. But of course, you may have managed to wander unannounced into one of the senior student trainings and tried your wares and defeated his skill and it just so happens I never got to hear about it. I mean I am out of the loop these days, so... As for my other teachers, well... I don't think you really understand about whom you are talking. But that is okay given that you choose to let some video determine how much value you place on those that there is even video of rather than go and see them and decide for yourself. By the way, none of my teacher's claim to be the be all end all of Aiki... Who did you say your teachers are again...?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
3. But while you claim to know what Ueshiba was dong -you won't say what "it" is. rather just what "it" isn't
Actually, I have said plenty on that subject right here on aikiweb. Put it on Aikido Journal, back in the day, too - when it just so happens that I was one of the only people saying something was VERY MISSING from Aikido. It is ironic who the nay-sayers were then and what they are saying now...

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
4. You state there was an approved list of Ueshiba's students who were hand picked to pass on his art in it's purity- you won't tell us who is on it
That is because it is not my place at all to say. It isn't my list. Hell, I had to look up some of the names... However, it is simply not that simple as to state a list of names. There is much more behind it than just saying go to see X-Sensei and you can learn O-Sensei's Aikido... It just doesn't work that way.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
5. Here now you challenge Stan's conclusions but won't tell us your own or how you arrived at them.
Again I would like to keep my opinions separate from Mr. Pranin's. The difference is he stated his as fact, and I am not doing that. In the case of my opinions, I can not state them because I would have to reveal some facts that I am not at liberty to disclose for the time being. Even Stanley, himself has said that there were many interviews granted where he wasn't even allowed to record them or take notes, and that he could not reveal the substance of the interview publicly either. I think Professor Goldsbury commented on just such an instance recently, if my memory serves me right. So where is the difference. How is it okay for him to jump to his conclusions when the gap between the factual (public) record and his public works is just too great?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think I have tried to read most of what you have written, watched your teacher on video, and frankly I fail to see any substance to your rebuttals. It's all rhetoric. I am not saying there isn't something behind the curtain, just that I have yet to see it or be able to examine either your skills or your information.
And I do not fault you for coming to whatever conclusions you have arrived at having not had the chance to meet me. However, given everything you have ever stated publicly about Aiki, and things that have come to me privately via some of your students, some of your associates and other sources, I wouldn't imagine your opinion would change much should we meet. But I am not trying to convince you of anything, Dan. I am more about providing a balancing influence on a very one-sided discussion. I feel that it is necessary on so many levels. I hope that it is helpful to some. I know it is helpful to me to continue to discuss these things with you.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
My hard work and skills (such as they are) have not only been vetted, it is worth noting they have been vetted by teachers of Aikido, Daito Ryu, and ICMA as well. I offer that only as support for the claims that the now infamous "IT," does indeed cross cultures as Mike has claimed for years. Futher, that they are indeed related enough that people can train "IT" and approach their arts from the inside out using "IT" without much trouble.
I have not doubt of this, either. I have even as recently as yesterday advised those interested in the IT to which you and Mike refer to go and train with you or Mike. I meant it in a sincere way. All I have ever said is that while there are considerable overlapping areas of study, that there is a substantial body of work in Aikido that is not present in your art form (just as there is in your art form that is not in Aikido) and that Aikido students who seek the art of the founder should at some point in their training focus on these areas. Without them, they are just not practicing O-Sensei's art form, no matter what level of internal or DR-based Aiki skills they manage to develop.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Stan's work is as stated and supports itself where necessary.
???I ask you... What would it take for you to see where it didn't???

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
So, I am open to being proved wrong and having my eyes opened. In fact I am as giddy as a school girl to train with you if you have something that can stop me. And frankly I am shocked to see you state there may be a whole corpus of information as you say-that Stan is either a) unaware of or b) has refused to look at or worse c) has been lying about for finanical gain with likes of Kondo! Wow!
C, Your statement there was a bit strong for me, Dan. I don't think that Mr. Pranin is a bold-face, intentional liar by any means. Even if I did (stating so might be misconstrued as libel) I believe that showing a connection to DRAJ and then bringing Kondo Sensei here are very related. Do I think it made Stanley rich? Not by a long shot. I can't imagine the financial disaster the Aiki-Expo's were to him, personally. And I don't want to. I brought Abe Sensei to NY for a week long multifaceted event back in 1999. That cost me over $60,000.00 of my own money. However, in both cases the benefit to those in attendance outweighs any dollar amount that could ever be assigned to it, hands down. I can't say that I would have done anything different in Stan's place if I didn't have any better information. If I found out some information that seemed to conclude a connection between two things I would look to publicize it, just as Stan did. My issue is not with that at all. However, the depth of that connection I believe is way over stated more as a way of creating a market here in the States for Kondo Sensei's Main Line DRAJ group. It is important to mention that that upset quite a lot of other DRAJ groups who were not Main Line, too. While I don't feel I owe Mr. Pranin any apology I will say that I am sorry if my statement seemed to allude to any impropriety on his behalf. That is not what I believe, and I am stating it clearly here. MOST IMPORTANTLY - I mean no negative inference on Kondo Sensei, his group or DRAJ in any way, shape or form.. WHATSOEVER!

Most importantly, Dan... you might be surprised at the lengths I would go to see you as giddy as a schoolgirl...

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Are you open for a visit? Train hands on and then sit over a looong dinner (on me) and present where and how I am wrong and Stan is off base?Cheers
Dan
Sure! just let me know when you can be in Osaka, Japan. This way you won't have to take my word on anything ever again. Let's arrange it soon, I will have some very interesting people in attendance, a group you couldn't imagine in the same room at the same time, even in an Aiki-romance soap opera with a hollywood ending. I promise you at that meeting you will learn something, not from me, directly but because I believe you to be a wonderful martial arts statesmen who will have a lasting effect on a large number of people regardless of if we meet or not. And that makes this worth all the effort.

...best in training to you and all.

.

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 07-27-2009 at 01:59 PM.

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Old 07-27-2009, 02:44 PM   #37
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

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Most importantly, Dan... you might be surprised at the lengths I would go to see you as giddy as a schoolgirl...
Ok, I'm sitting here trying to imagine Dan in a production of the Mikado...and failing miserably!

And that's all I have to say about that....
Best,
Ron

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Old 07-27-2009, 03:01 PM   #38
Shannon Frye
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

If you had a 6yr old, 4 yr old, and 1 yr old sons, I doubt you'd agree. Sometimes the best answer is simply an answer. Asking for info on here should not be like pulling teeth, nor like trying to get straight answer from my kids.

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Actually sometimes the best answer to a question is another question..

"In the end there can be only one"

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Old 07-27-2009, 05:26 PM   #39
Fred Little
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

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Shannon Frye wrote: View Post
If you had a 6yr old, 4 yr old, and 1 yr old sons, I doubt you'd agree. Sometimes the best answer is simply an answer. Asking for info on here should not be like pulling teeth, nor like trying to get straight answer from my kids.
1 Corinthians 13:11

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Old 07-27-2009, 07:31 PM   #40
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Hello Don,

Have you seen the essays in two other collections edited by Mark Teewen?

They are: Shinto in History: Ways of the Kami, edited by Teewen and John Breen (2000, Curzon); and a very interesting collection, entitled, The Culture of Secrecy in Japanese Religion, edited by Teewen and Bernhard Scheid (2006, Routledge).

The second volume has a direct relevance to esoteric Buddhism and kotodama. Rambelli also has a book out, entitled, Buddhist Materiality: A Cultural History of Objects in Japanese Buddhism (2007, Stanford UP).

Best wishes,

PAG

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Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
Also, for background on Osensei's spiritual pursuits, Helen Hardacre and Carmen Blacker are useful as well as Teeuwen and Rambelli, Buddhas and Kami.

Good luck with your research.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 07-27-2009, 11:53 PM   #41
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
The Culture of Secrecy in Japanese Religion, edited by Teewen and Bernhard Scheid (2006, Routledge).

The second volume has a direct relevance to esoteric Buddhism and kotodama.
Hey, look! I just checked and a paperback edition has come out! WAY less money than the jaw dropping $180 dollar 2006 edition.

Posted in case some had written this book off the list.

-Doug Walker
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Old 07-28-2009, 01:59 AM   #42
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Hello Doug,

Well, enlightenment does not come cheap, especially in Japanese traditional martial arts and religion--and I assume that this includes reading about enlightenment as well as experiencing it.

I am always bemused by the price range of the, ema votive tablets, omamori amulets and especially omikuji fortune slips at Japanese shrines. Presumably the more expensive ones will be backed by stronger and more efficacious kotodama from more powerful deities than the cheaper variety.

Of course, there is book about this: Ian Reader and George J Tanabe Jr, Practically Religious: Worldly Benefits and the Common Religions of Japan, 1998, Hawai'i U P.

PAG

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Doug Walker wrote: View Post
Hey, look! I just checked and a paperback edition has come out! WAY less money than the jaw dropping $180 dollar 2006 edition.

Posted in case some had written this book off the list.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 07-28-2009, 09:49 AM   #43
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

So...

If you meet the Buddha on the road, be sure to have cash.

-Doug Walker
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Old 07-28-2009, 10:31 AM   #44
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Have you seen the essays in two other collections edited by Mark Teewen?

They are: Shinto in History: Ways of the Kami, edited by Teewen and John Breen (2000, Curzon); and a very interesting collection, entitled, The Culture of Secrecy in Japanese Religion, edited by Teewen and Bernhard Scheid (2006, Routledge).
Hi, Peter.

Thanks for the refs. I've read the first, several times, excellent articles. The second I skimmed, it didn't seem to address my interests at the time, but I'll look at it again.

Thanks for the in-depth articles. They've been needed for a long time.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 07-28-2009, 10:20 PM   #45
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

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What did O'Sensei's students want from him?
About three-fiddy...
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Old 07-29-2009, 09:18 AM   #46
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Hello Shaun
Sorry not to get back-I was in the field all day. I finally have a construction project to work on here in thriving taxachusetts!! Let the real estate buy-out of bankrupt Developers and business leaving the state, begin!!
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Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
First - I have never claimed to be top shelf. If I did, where would that leave my teachers or my teacher's teachers? Above the shelf, perhaps???
Me neither, what does that have to do with it? We're both just "Bums on the budo bus."
I wasn't suggesting you were or needed to be, bud. What I was asking, was if I could come down and see what you got. Not to report back here and talk about it or any such thing like that, rather to compare notes and also to talk shop away from prying eyes and ear about some of the missing research you talked about.

Quote:
Much of what I claim to know I haven't even shared with my own students, so I wouldn't imagine that you would have any access to it. Even if I told you everything, you would just deny it anyway... Given that the only way any of it could actually be true is if I could stop you dead in your tracks with aiki (mine or yours, for that matter) that last part was more or less a joke, I suppose. Second - Perhaps we are the same, or perhaps we may be different in that I am not claiming to be the source of anything. I am only accepting students who would be interested in training with my teachers. I don't typically ever train with casual looky-loos. Even at public seminars (not ones I teach) I merely go through the motions when working with partners who outrank me. I don't try and teach my seniors anything. I am just playing the role a capable uke. If we were to meet, I would do so only so as to learn from you, not to challenge your ideas or methods or skills or those of your students. Experience tells me that it would take me a year or two to give proper consideration to your methods and train diligently in them on a daily basis for an extended period before agreeing on their merits and values.
I find this troubling and difficult to follow. I don't want to put words in your mouth or play internet word games, but it appears you are saying...
a) you don't teach "IT" to your students
b) you haven't shown your stuff at seminars where others could feel you- you just go along
c) you don't accept looky-loos(That's cute, I like that and I'm stealing it!)
Okay, so I guess you're saying...
d) you reserve your skills for your teachers in Japan only and that's why know one has felt anything seriously good from you?
Who do you practice with then?
I am interested only in the extent that you have steadfastly contradicted what I and now other aikido teachers are saying about this training that we are describing as being the aiki that is missing from aikido.
Now that time has gone by, I certainly think it is fair to say that Mike, Ark and I have stepped up to put it on the table to be tested and felt. further that we have done so in open environments. I must say, at least for myself, it is going rather well. As things are unfolding we now have teachers and students of Aikido, and Daito ryu stating this is the core of their art. I noted for you, and I think it is worthy of your responding to it that exactly as Mike predicted- we are getting the same reaction from ICMA people, that this or that is the core of their arts as well proving "IT" is cross cultural. Mores the point though you are no longer debatinging just Mike and I, but an ever growing number of teachers and students of the aiki arts who- for some reason- all magically agree "IT" is missing in their art or "IT" is the core of their art.
Your response to all of this is to say something along the lines that "IT" was missing from all their arts but not yours, and they are now mistakenly substituted our "IT" for the actual and true "IT" of Aikido.
Okay.lets see it.

Your idea that there is a select group of teachers of O-sensei who had it and it is largely unknown is intriguing to me. Further, you allude that only you and a few select teachers know who is on a hidden list who know the real aikido. But, you went on to place the argument out of reach for debate, unless I go to Osaka. Okay, again, I am all ears and willing to step up.
Lets see it!
Quote:
Just let me know when you can be in Osaka, Japan. This way you won't have to take my word on anything ever again. Let's arrange it soon; I will have some very interesting people in attendance, a group you couldn't imagine in the same room at the same time, even in an Aiki-romance soap opera with a Hollywood ending. I promise you at that meeting you will learn something, not from me, directly...
If you don't mind I would like to know who and where I will be going and I would like it filmed. I would be wiling to offer no technique in response, I will just attack, let them do whatever they want to do to show aiki and I will settle for just neutralize anything you, and your teachers, can offer with my "IT" and we'll see how that works out for ya.
Please note* I am willing to do this in a straight aikido setting; first to more adequately judge their abilities to offer anything really substantive, next to see if they can use aiki in an out of waza. Then I would like them to take my tests. We can make it non violent and as close to a body method workshop as possible or we can play in a more pressured setting. Since I can already predict the results I will offer to teach what I am doing for free and do a few days of classes on the hush, hush and get you started. I only want the film so that it doesn't turn into a "Yeah, we did this all along!" kinda thing.
Who you will be presenting as representative of your method? I would like a formal letter receiving me, translated, before we make plans so that I know it is all good.

Note* that I suggested we meet fist so you can get a feel for what I am talking about. I have done this with a few upper rank teachers who now have suggested to me that they would -never- recommend their own teachers expose themselves to this testing. They know it will not go well for them. I thought as a bubo man you might want to consider all options, and possible outcomes as not being quite so sure a thing as you suggest. That's just good budo, man., But I'm game.
So there you go. I think it will be fun. There are some aikido teachers who would like to pay my way and come watch and / or participate as well. Would that be okay?

Quote:
You on the other hand, and this is only from an outsider's view given that we have never trained together, never really seem to mention your teachers at all. I find this uncharacteristically strange, but then again we come from different schools of thought on matters such as protocol. See, my time for outside pursuits is precious and limited. For me, if you are the greatest at what you do... say so. If there is someone greater, tell me who they are so I can skip over you and go and train directly with them. Don't take it personally; I tend to do the same thing in whatever pursuit I take on.
My understanding is presented in my own two hands. I took my understanding of aiki to places they didn't care to test it in; a continuous freestyle environment, outside of the one-step Japanese ukemi model. No one I know of was willing to step up and do the work-so I did it on my own.

Ueshiba put his stuff out there as well, no excuses, no equivocating. I think its refreshing that an Aikido teacher like you has now come along laid it out there, that there is a secret list of men that Ueshiba hand picked to pass on his art and it is *thee* list of just who was supposed to be disseminating the art of aikido to the world and that some of them, just like him, will accept a physical challenge to that claim. Good on ya, Shaun, i can't wait to feel it!

Quote:
While I am forced to wait to get to train with you, I am absolutely sure we will get to meet.
I will be there any time, you ask after the teacher's seminar this weekend. Or how is this; come on up to Mass. this weekend and will host you. I will offer a suite, and all food and beverages and we can talk shop all weekend with a room of about 30 other aikido teachers. You can show your ideas of Ueshiba's hand picked deshi, and I'll show "IT" to you. Heck, even if you don't want to show (like you said) you can take a class, feel me, and have a free weekend. Does that help?

Quote:
You don't even know what it is, but that doesn't mean you don't actually do it. However, I would be neither surprised nor impressed if you did anything of the sort. I would more than likely be saddened if you could not...
Most importantly, Dan... You might be surprised at the lengths I would go to see you as giddy as a schoolgirl...
Let's find out shall we? You're only a few hours away by car. I AM giddy as a school girl to see better stuff. What budo guy isn't? Why wait to see me faun all over you? As they say on the tee vee "The price is right (its free). So come on down!"

Quote:
I believe you to be a wonderful martial arts statesmen who will have a lasting effect on a large number of people regardless of if we meet or not. And that makes this worth all the effort.
Well, I take the jab in the spirit, in which it was offered-I also pit up my coffee when I read it! Though, I am disinclined to offer you a "Bless you heart" in reply!
Seriously though, let's meet. I absolutely promise you I will have you laughing; either at me, yourself, or the two of us, in no time flat and it will just get better after that. Budo is hard work but there is no reason we can't have fun and make friends doing it. I certainly do.
Again, I continue to enjoy the honesty and respect in our debates and exchanges. Your idea that there is a select group of teachers of O-sensei who had it and it is largely unknown is intriguing to me. Here's hoping for some face-to-face time and sharing, ahead for the both of us, bud. I would like some time to sit and talk about the nuance that is missing and other facts that you say Stan just will not discuss. But lets leave that for dinner and not here okay?
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-29-2009 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 07-30-2009, 12:02 AM   #47
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

I am going to reply to some of what Dan mentioned in his previous post here in this post. With regards to many of the other things he brought up, I believe AikiWeb is not conducive to facilitating a totally positive reaction either from me, Dan or other posters. As such, those items I will take private with Dan. He will either respond to them or not as he chooses. Tthat is just fine by me. In any case, here are the points I felt deserved some sort of public forum. YMMV

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I find this troubling and difficult to follow. I don't want to put words in your mouth or play internet word games, but it appears you are saying...
a) you don't teach "IT" to your students
b) you haven't shown your stuff at seminars where others could feel you- you just go along
c) you don't accept looky-loos(That's cute, I like that and I'm stealing it!)
Okay, so I guess you're saying...
d) you reserve your skills for your teachers in Japan only and that's why know one has felt anything seriously good from you?
Who do you practice with then?
Dan, your questions are reasonable enough...

a)I have no reservations whatsoever about teaching anything to anyone that has shown an ability to learn it. At my dojo, students learn basic and intermediate Aikido Waza, along with bokken and jo. When it comes to anything beyond that, I defer to my teachers and forward my students up to them. This is the environment I came up in and it worked for me, so I have maintained it for my own group.

b)at my own seminars - of course I let everyone feel most everything that falls within their ability to take the ukemi. I have never resisted a challenge on the mat at one of my own seminars, I mean, do people do that? When at other peoples seminars, I am there to learn, not to teach. I try to learn something from every single interaction, with each and every partner with whom it is my pleasure to work. However, again, I am not there to teach at someone else's seminar. If the person I am working with has a question, I call over the teacher and we both learn from the seminar leader. That is what I was taught is the proper protocol. Generally speaking, I tend to try and follow it.

c)You are welcome to it. I have been turning them down for years. The persistent ones have come up with some very creative ways to get in touch with me, but if they have another teacher and show up without a letter of introduction, then I find it difficult to participate in it. I have been "accused" of trying to steal other teacher's students in the past, and while I have never done anything that would even border on that, I just closed any opening whereby there was any chance for someone to misconstrue my intentions or my actions.

d)Hmmm, I guess you would have to ask them what they think. I have no relative ability to judge what they feel. I tend to open up at times and let my waza speak for itself, but I wouldn't say there was a general consensus as to on whom or when that has been. I am sure that there are quite a few people out there who have anecdotal information. Regardless of what is said about my waza, but you could choose to accept the positive and throw away the negative, or just as easily do the reverse. I don't really have anything to prove, but at the same time have proven myself over and over and over when needed. As for who I practice with, that is a complex question. Are you asking me who I train with? I train with my students when I can. Of course, I am sure you wouldn't find this too interesting or shocking, but most of my own training is solo work these days.

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Your response to all of this is to say something along the lines that "IT" was missing from all their arts but not yours, and they are now mistakenly substituted our "IT" for the actual and true "IT" of Aikido.
First off, O-Sensei's Aikido is just that... If I am practicing it and others are doing something else, that is for them to discover. I don't go around looking at what they are doing. That just isn't what I was taught to do. I focus on my own path, I have teacher's that guide me along that path, and I am happy with the path I have chosen to follow. So far, you seem to only have converted those that were missing something (whether they knew it or not) to begin with. Reminds me of Jews for Jesus versus the Jews. Jews for Jesus proponents say, "I Found IT!" The Jews have a nice reply, "I never lost it"
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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Your idea that there is a select group of teachers of O-sensei who had it and it is largely unknown is intriguing to me. Further, you allude that only you and a few select teachers know who is on a hidden list who know the real aikido. But, you went on to place the argument out of reach for debate, unless I go to Osaka. Okay, again, I am all ears and willing to step up.
Dan,
THERE IS NO HIDDEN LIST!!!! and for the record, I don't know what any specific teacher does or does not know. For all I know, somewhere in Taos, New Mexico is the best Aikido on the planet. It is the best because O-Sensei's ghost appears there regularly, Oh, and the reason I don't know it is because I am just not invited, Neither is anyone on the "list" to which I refer. FYI... O-Sensei didn't leave a list. THERE ISN"T ANY LIST. I mean there is a list that was made for me in a private conversation, but it most certainly isn't written down anywhere. The reason is, if you know what to look for, IT IS THE MOST OBVIOUS THING. I mean if you are standing in the elevator and a guy walks in wearing a military uniform with three stars on his lapel, you can be pretty sure that someone thought well enough of the guy to MAKE HIM A GENERAL. No big mysteries... really. Sure we do live in a time when other arts have gone so far as to do the utmost in ridiculous and go to a 15 or 20 dan ranking system just to say, "Oh your teacher is only a 9th dan? Mine is a 14th dan!" Oh, and if you come from one of those systems, I have no apologies for my statement.. THAT IS JUST RIDICULOUS! ...to me...

With regards to Osaka
if you knew me you would know that given how "particular" I can be, I have chosen to accept only a handful of students over the years. If I were to sponsor a trip to Japan it would be for a very small list of martial artists that I would care to accompany. Over the years I have personally seen dozens and dozens of people who went as part of "travel groups" and personally I think it was a waste of time for them, and even more so for those they went to see. Of course on a level of cultural exchange it was truly great for everyone. So, Dan... if I invited you to go along with me it is because I know what would be waiting for the right group on the other side. It is something that I think has the utmost value if you are looking to better understand O-Sensei's Aikido. I believe that while you would and should not ever be "converted" tom my way of thinking that you would have a very different mindset from the one you now have upon your return

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You can show your ideas of Ueshiba's hand picked deshi, and I'll show "IT" to you. Heck, even if you don't want to show (like you said) you can take a class, feel me, and have a free weekend. Does that help?
You make it seem like I want or need to feel something from you in order to prove something to myself about what it is that you are doing. While I appreciate the offer, it really has no appeal to me. It's akin to Brad Pitt offering me a BJ. I mean, it may be the best one I ever got. I am sure that there would be tons of guys who would might line up for one, even if that wasn't there thing. However, the whole idea of it is so out of order. See, as good as it might be... that just ain't my thing.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Let's find out shall we? You're only a few hours away by car. I AM giddy as a school girl to see better stuff. What budo guy isn't? Why wait to see me faun all over you? As they say on the tee vee "The price is right (its free). So come on down!"
Gee, a giddy schoolgirl who will faun all over me - you might have something there, after all, Dan.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well, I take the jab in the spirit, in which it was offered-I also spit up my coffee when I read it! Though, I am disinclined to offer you a "Bless you heart" in reply!
Dan, when I compliment you and Mike as I sometimes do, I am being completely sincere. I was being sincere in that case and I am a bit disheartened that you haven't realized that by now.

Best in training to you and all...

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:47 AM   #48
mwible
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Re: What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?

Sensei Roy Y. Suenaka studied under O'Sensei, i believe, to learn Aikido as a martial art. Martial Arts had been his life, and he had found Aikido (brought to Hawaii by Tohei Sensei) to be the most powerful and effective art that he had so far come across; and he had been studying MA since the age of 4, starting with Judo, then jujitsu, karate, and many others.

Aikido is a Martial Art, and that is how it should be practiced.

"When you bow deeply to the universe, it bows back; when you call out the name of God, it echoes inside you." - O' sensei
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