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Old 06-25-2009, 01:19 PM   #1
Suru
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Trust

One of the Japanese words for trust is shinrai. Removing the r, it's shinai. When training with shinai rather than bokken, the diminished fear opens the door to increased trust. People who begin Aikido training become increasingly comfortable with strangers. With someone new, there is no guarantee that, for example, he doesn't know his own strength, he will train quickly and recklessly, causing injury or worse, or that perhaps on some paranoid level, this person wants to hurt / injure / maim / kill. This may be the most significant triumph achieved by Aikikeiko that I have felt and observed. There is therefore a direct correlation between experience in Aikido and trust of unknown training partners. This may well lead to a best-scenario increased trust, and worst-scenario blind trust in strangers in life outside the dojo.

When I was on a Boy Scout camp out in the Everglades, The main scoutmaster called my name and two others. This man is one of the most sincere and genuine nice guys I'd ever known. So, he told us that he needed a "left-handed smoke-shifter." We scouts had never heard of such a device, but we walked miles to another camping troop, asking their leader if he had one. He told us to try the troop down the way, and luckily that leader told us that there's no such thing; it's an old scout leader trick. So we returned, dejected. I was upset at out leader, then got a little laugh and became upset with myself for the blind trust.

The fact is, we can't trust everyone in the world all the time. I think we learned that in kindergarten. But, I feel that Aikido builds so much intuition, and erases so many superfluous fears, that these intertwined benefits are at least part of the sine qua non of non-martial advantages of our training.

Drew
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:33 PM   #2
Janet Rosen
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Re: Trust

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
This may be the most significant triumph achieved by Aikikeiko that I have felt and observed. There is therefore a direct correlation between experience in Aikido and trust of unknown training partners.
Drew
This is a real YMMV, because that is emphatically not true in my world. As an older person with disabilities the more I train the more I have concern about unknown partners.

Last edited by akiy : 06-25-2009 at 01:56 PM. Reason: Fixed quoting

Janet Rosen
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Old 06-25-2009, 02:39 PM   #3
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Re: Trust

What does YMMV mean?

What are the reasons you feel a negative correlation instead of what I speak of a positive correlation?

Why not blend in your potential next reply in a more ki-no-musubi way?

Drew
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Old 06-25-2009, 02:53 PM   #4
Janet Rosen
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Re: Trust

YMMV = your mileage may vary
I thought my answer was specific enough and I'm sorry if it wasn't blendy enough to suit you.

Janet Rosen
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Old 06-25-2009, 03:15 PM   #5
Suru
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Re: Trust

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
YMMV = your mileage may vary
I thought my answer was specific enough and I'm sorry if it wasn't blendy enough to suit you.
This is a perfect example of intuition and level of trust. Since you are directly displaying anger toward me, for no apparent reason, I do not trust you much.

"[Should you lose The Way, you will no doubt enter a 'dark path.' Give no reign to the spiritual horse.]"

~O'Sensei

Drew
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Old 06-25-2009, 03:26 PM   #6
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Trust

Moin
as we say here

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
This is a real YMMV, because that is emphatically not true in my world. As an older person with disabilities the more I train the more I have concern about unknown partners.
Yes! It's not true in my world either.
And even as a young person (43 ) with some abillities and experience it is very important to be cautious about unknown partners.

@ Drew:
If someone understands aikido as to hammer you into the tatami and you don't know him or her, practice might be difficult if you can't fall what he/she throws.
I experienced a lot of such situations.
And a lot of "Shit, I can't really practice." of my partners when I wasn't able to fall what they wanted to throw.
Also I have been injured ba partners who didn't realize I couldn't fall what they throwed.

And I am aware that not everyody can take the ukemi I demand when I teach. That simple.

Carsten

Please excuse my bad english.
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Old 06-25-2009, 03:42 PM   #7
Suru
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Re: Trust

Well there are so far two dots way outside the best-fit correlation line, to be ignored. A poll might show us the general trend, if Jun would be interested in posting one. "Has your intuition and accuracy of trust of new, unknown training partners increased along with keiko experience?"

Drew
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Old 06-25-2009, 04:29 PM   #8
dps
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Re: Trust

Another dot way outside the best-fit correlation line.

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
When training with shinai rather than bokken, the diminished fear opens the door to increased trust.
And if you trained with styrofoam pool noodles (http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...mages&aq=f&oq=) that door would open further.

Have someone in your dojo take a serious whack at you with a bokken or outside the dojo with a baseball bat and see that door swing shut.

As far as trusting strangers: I have some secluded waterfront property in southern Florida for sell. Send me a check and its yours, trust me.

David
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Old 06-25-2009, 04:44 PM   #9
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Re: Trust

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
This is a perfect example of intuition and level of trust. Since you are directly displaying anger toward me, for no apparent reason, I do not trust you much.
Did you start this thread in order to pick a fight? Because that's exactly what you appear to be doing.

(in the most blendy, harmonious, I-am-not-attacking-you-I-am-merely-using-your-negative-energy-against-you, aikiholy way possible, of course).
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Old 06-25-2009, 04:49 PM   #10
Suru
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Re: Trust

There are enough Aikidoka on this website to have a large sample size vote on the enlightenment or delusion of my optimism. I wish we could start polls, because this would make a good one. My hope is that Jun will place one.

Although you were being a disrespectful smart ass, David, what you said made me laugh. I used to use those foam noodles to punish my 170 pound great dane. If I even walked toward the closet where I stored them, he would uncharacteristically cower backward and display total fear. A live katana would have probably not fazed him.

Drew
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Old 06-25-2009, 05:14 PM   #11
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Re: Trust

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
And if you trained with styrofoam pool noodles (http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...mages&aq=f&oq=) that door would open further.
http://www.aikidoohana.org/ohana-alb...0Photos&page=6



Best,

Chris

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Old 06-25-2009, 05:20 PM   #12
Michael Hackett
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Re: Trust

Lessee here.....we are to take great stock on the subject of trust from a man who "punished" his dog into cowering? Naw, I don't think so.

I've trained with many folks who were careful and sensible practitioners and I learned to trust them through experience. I've also trained with some that were dangerous human beings. Ellis Amdur Sensei wrote about one of his experiences with a senior yudansha in this very same context.

Sorry, and although I may be banished from the campfire of goodness and light, I'm really big on trusting and verifying. When I'm training with a stranger, I am very careful to protect myself until I am absolutely confident that my partner is trustworthy in his conduct.

I can see the light, I swear. I'm just afraid to approach.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 06-25-2009, 05:59 PM   #13
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Re: Trust

"How are you going to ever find your place, running in an artificial pace" -Gin Blossoms. There are plenty of competitive sports out there, for all levels. I hope you all will discover suitable ones, more worthy of your mentalities. Aikido's main drawback is that, while great at keeping positive people positive, it rarely succeeds at turning negative people positive.

Drew
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Old 06-25-2009, 06:01 PM   #14
Janet Rosen
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Re: Trust

Anger was perceived by the receptors of the OP and not sent out by me. My initial reply disagreed in a totally neutral way. SO I was surprised and amused/bemused at being chastised by "Why not blend in your potential next reply in a more ki-no-musubi way?" as if one needs to to preface every disagreement with a make-nice statement like "You are right, but...." in order to blend or be polite. I found that a pretty audacious assumption and contrary to the spirit of the OP itself vis a vis openness and trust. And validates my lifelong habit of looking out for being blindsided by the weirdness of strangers.

Last edited by Janet Rosen : 06-25-2009 at 06:04 PM. Reason: concision

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Old 06-25-2009, 08:13 PM   #15
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Re: Trust

Due to life experiences I don't trust easily....

that said one of the first things I learned about Aikido besides there was such a thing was that part of it's philosophy is to make your enemy into your friend.

A stranger you don't trust is your enemy.... make him your friend and then trust him and train with him. Seems simple to me.

If I am concerned that someone, I have not partnered before, will throw me in a way I am not ready for I stop him or I make sure to tell him at the beginning I need him to go slow. So far I have not had a problem. Or Am I simply blessed with a dojo full of unusually sympathetic aikidoka?

Sometimes its best to not think too hard... just train. Thinking only gets in the way of learning when it comes to physical things.
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Old 06-25-2009, 08:28 PM   #16
dps
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Re: Trust

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Thank You Chris.

David
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Old 06-26-2009, 02:31 AM   #17
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Re: Trust

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
There is therefore a direct correlation between experience in Aikido and trust of unknown training partners.
With increased experience and thus skill, I don't find I trust unknown training partners more. What has increased is the trust in my own skill to prevent me from getting hurt. There are less and less situations in which I won't be able to handle myself.
Or as Dutch martial artist once said (paraphrasing a bit here): verbal deescalation is obviously the best way to go, but it's comforting to know I have a more than good chance to kick their ass if they do get violent.

For instance, when my partner us using too much force, I am sensitive enough to anticipate his movements and never allow him to use force. It's a shame this means I have to prevent him from actually practicing aikido in this way and I am more than willing to explain, discuss, etc. the issue, but I will protect myself first.
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Old 06-26-2009, 05:36 AM   #18
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Re: Trust

You can always trust people to be who they are, not who you would like them to be.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 06-26-2009, 07:37 AM   #19
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Trust

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
What does YMMV mean?

What are the reasons you feel a negative correlation instead of what I speak of a positive correlation?

Why not blend in your potential next reply in a more ki-no-musubi way?

Drew
I've read the thread, and know the posters you are quarelling with by their other posts on this and other boards. Personally, I think you are way out of line here. Just my opinion, for what it is worth.

One of the things I do when I feel threatened on the mat is to take a breather in seiza facing my partner, and try to coordinate my breathing with theirs. It often helps achieve that ki-no-musubi / fitting together with my partner when we perform rei and start training again. It also helps me to get past whatever just occurred, and start fresh.

Sometimes it helps in my internet posting as well. I highly recommend it.

Best,
Ron (I don't think I'm going to touch the making an animal that is a pet fear me thingy...I'm not sure I am advanced or mature enough to blend with that yet)

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 06-26-2009 at 07:41 AM.

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Old 06-26-2009, 08:02 AM   #20
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Re: Trust

I agree with Joep,

It is your trust in your own ability to take whatever your partner throws at you that increases with experience

Having built that up within myself to a reasonable degree before the car accident, I have now had to take a huge step backwards as I'm carrying a permanent injury from said accident which means I can no longer take hard falls.

As a result, my confidence has decreased. I am careful with everybody I train with. I can no longer attend seminars because the other students don't know about my limitations. I will not be grading again.

However, I am extremely positive about being able to train again, as I really missed Aikido!

Every class is a gift, and I enjoy my mat time to the fullest

Sensei will not allow me to come to harm at the hands of anyone else in his dojo - that is where I place my trust now

Ruth
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Old 06-26-2009, 08:58 AM   #21
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Re: Trust

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
You can always trust people to be who they are, not who you would like them to be.
"...I feel that Aikido builds so much intuition..."

Lynn, I agree with your statement, and since any major form of telepathy probably does not exist, the intuition I have gained over the past decade I attribute highly to Aikido training along with everyday life experience. It takes intuition to get a good concept of "who they are" so I then can trust them to be that way. I have found a big test of intuition while being uke for various sensei. During these precious times, I have had to focus hard since I don't know what the techniques are going to be. Whether or not this builds intuition, I believe it does.

Drew
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:22 AM   #22
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Trust

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
This is a perfect example of intuition and level of trust. Since you are directly displaying anger toward me, for no apparent reason, I do not trust you much.

"[Should you lose The Way, you will no doubt enter a 'dark path.' Give no reign to the spiritual horse.]"

~O'Sensei

Drew
Drew,
Aside from the "kick me" sign displayed subconsciously in your response to Janet...sure there was no reason.

Your statements were categorical and sanctimonious and when Janet pointed out that her experience (and, I am sure, that of many, many others) contradicted what you had stated, you whip out some even more sanctimonious O-Sensei quote. This is just the kind of stuff that acts like blood i the water for the sharks...
- George

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Old 06-26-2009, 09:31 AM   #23
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Re: Trust

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
. People who begin Aikido training become increasingly comfortable with strangers.
Drew
I'd say it depends how you practice. There are situations where you are going on the tatami with the same spirit as going to the battle.
The only trust is your lucky star.

Nagababa

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Old 06-26-2009, 10:10 AM   #24
C. David Henderson
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Re: Trust

I'm also much slower to heal than I once was, and I am also cautious training with unknown partners.

For me, not fearing to practice with an unknown partner is not the same as, and does not require, feeling trust towards that person. It's more about being in the moment.

And, although I trust myself more over time to take care of myself, I know I may be hurt. That's actually something that I find helpful in training in keeping my mind focused.

YMMV
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:33 AM   #25
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Re: Trust

(pulls up a chair and enjoys some hot-buttered popcorn)
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