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Old 06-25-2009, 06:50 AM   #26
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Charles, Matthew,

You need to treat Heraclitus with great care. (I spent a semester at Harvard going through his writings. It was one of those classes that only a university like Harvard can offer: a graduate course in Greek, with only three students, meeting twice a week.)

So, with great respect, I suggest that the Rev. Yamamoto Yukiyasu Guji was perhaps mistaken about Heraclitus.

It is the same with the Kojiki or the Nihonshoki, or the Man'yoshu. You look at the 'established' texts and if you do not trust these, you go back to the manuscripts and check the manuscript tradition. In addition, with the Kojiki, you look at what Motoori Norinaga wrote about it, since he more or less established the text that is used nowadays. Then you look at later interpretations, such as those of Onisaburo Deguchi and Morihei Ueshiba.

At least , this is what I would do.

So I myself do not believe that Heraclitus ever held that the present does not exist. What he believed is that things change--and also stay the same--at the same time, like the river.

Best wishes,

PAG

PS. As for nakaima, I suggest that you look at Japanese Google, under '中今神道'.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:18 PM   #27
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Charles, thank you for the kind words! My wife, Cindy, is still in the process of labor after about 24 hours of being checked in. It should be any hour now! I'm amazed at how focused she is!
More later.
Take care all!
Matt

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Old 06-26-2009, 02:45 AM   #28
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
You need to treat Heraclitus with great care.
Dr. Goldsbury,

I was really hoping you'd post, thank you. I have been reading a book on how we represent time to ourselves and the implications this has in psychological therapy. The book mentioned how the Greeks had a solid grasp of the idea, and this reminded me of this thread. I then looked up Heraclitus on wikipedia and found that I do not have the necessary foundation to understand this. So even more exciting worlds to open up.

Charles
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Old 06-26-2009, 04:23 AM   #29
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Charles,

Rather than Wikipedia, I suggest the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. The URL is http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/heraclitus/

Heraclitus needs to considered in relation to Parmenides of Elea, who appears to have denied the possibility of change.

As for experience or perception of time, try this article, again from the Stanford Encyclopedia: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time-experience/

Best wishes,

PAG

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
Dr. Goldsbury,

I was really hoping you'd post, thank you. I have been reading a book on how we represent time to ourselves and the implications this has in psychological therapy. The book mentioned how the Greeks had a solid grasp of the idea, and this reminded me of this thread. I then looked up Heraclitus on wikipedia and found that I do not have the necessary foundation to understand this. So even more exciting worlds to open up.

Charles

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Old 06-26-2009, 06:51 AM   #30
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
I was really hoping you'd post, thank you. I have been reading a book on how we represent time to ourselves and the implications this has in psychological therapy. The book mentioned how the Greeks had a solid grasp of the idea, and this reminded me of this thread. I then looked up Heraclitus on wikipedia and found that I do not have the necessary foundation to understand this. So even more exciting worlds to open up.
Heraclitus' main intellectual descendants are in the schools of phenomenology: Whitehead, Husserl, Levinas, Pope John Paul II, and a particularly accessible, if little read, Irish aeronautical pioneer and polymath, J.W. Dunne, who dealt at length with the personal experience of time and the nature of self-identity.

Heraclitus said: "When you have listened, not to me, but to the Logos, it is wise within the same Logos to say: 'One is All'."

Logos is usually given the translation 'Word', but that is incomplete. A 'word' only has meaning as a part of a patterned system, and Logos speaks to the pattern that confers meaning, reason, comprehensibility to a make a system recognizable as a system, wherein the part speaks to the whole and the whole to the parts. It has very strong affinities for the concept of kotodama, as I see it.

Phenomenology means, trivially, "study of phenomena," or more deeply, experiencing reality as a "systematic pattern (logos) of events."

In this sense-- "no mind" (our present topic), is the mind that is within that pattern and not apart from it -- as Heraclitus says, 'within the same Logos, One is All.'

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 06-27-2009, 01:47 AM   #31
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Rather than Wikipedia, I suggest the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
Thank you Professor. I have bookmarked the site and expect to use it a lot.

Charles
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Old 06-27-2009, 08:20 AM   #32
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Hello Charles,

I prefer the Stanford University site because I know the people who contribute and update it. The major problem I have with Wikipedia is the anonymity it appears to demand.

If you study the articles in the Stanford University site well, it should give you the tools to respond to Erick's post about the supposed influence of Heraclitus on phenomenology.

Best wishes,

PAG

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Thank you Professor. I have bookmarked the site and expect to use it a lot.

Charles

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Old 06-27-2009, 10:43 PM   #33
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

"You want it all, but you can't have it!/
What is it? (What is it?)
-Faith No More

(Sorry, couldn't resist)
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Old 06-27-2009, 11:33 PM   #34
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Charles, Matthew,

You need to treat Heraclitus with great care. (I spent a semester at Harvard going through his writings. It was one of those classes that only a university like Harvard can offer: a graduate course in Greek, with only three students, meeting twice a week.)

So, with great respect, I suggest that the Rev. Yamamoto Yukiyasu Guji was perhaps mistaken about Heraclitus.

It is the same with the Kojiki or the Nihonshoki, or the Man'yoshu. You look at the 'established' texts and if you do not trust these, you go back to the manuscripts and check the manuscript tradition. In addition, with the Kojiki, you look at what Motoori Norinaga wrote about it, since he more or less established the text that is used nowadays. Then you look at later interpretations, such as those of Onisaburo Deguchi and Morihei Ueshiba.

At least , this is what I would do.

So I myself do not believe that Heraclitus ever held that the present does not exist. What he believed is that things change--and also stay the same--at the same time, like the river.

Best wishes,

PAG

PS. As for nakaima, I suggest that you look at Japanese Google, under '中今神道'.
Thank you, Peter! I certainly couldn't say one way or another. I recalled something vague from my introduction to classics course which seemed to agree with Guji-san, but I always wondered how someone could deny the existance of the present. Then again, some of those old-time Greeks were pretty crazy!
I'll have to figure out how to use kanji on my pc before I can look up nakaima on Japanese Google. Can you recommend any sources that in your opinion would sum the idea up well enough? Or, are there any exceptions you'd take with Sensei Barrish's description?
Thanks again for the clarification w/ re: Heraclitus.
Take care,
Matt
p.s. to all: After a day of labor I'm proud to say I have a son; his name is Benjamin; it was by far the most profound experience of my life...words cannot describe.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 06-28-2009, 07:44 AM   #35
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post

p.s. to all: After a day of labor I'm proud to say I have a son; his name is Benjamin;
Congratulations to you and your family. You'll have a wonderful time the next few years!

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
it was by far the most profound experience of my life...words cannot describe.
Mushin.
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Old 06-28-2009, 08:30 AM   #36
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Quote:
PAG wrote:
... the supposed influence of Heraclitus on phenomenology. ... What he believed is that things change--and also stay the same--at the same time, like the river.
... Or like Husserl's intention and protention in an enduring sound -- the same yet different -- like a echo, one might even say, perhaps in the mountains. Or in seeing Whitehead's prehension and concrescence on various scales of reflexively involuted occasions -- one might wonder about the native affinity of inchoate ions congealing and binding an essential fluidity into a transient solidity of crystal as they drip from the point of a spear back into the sea.

That's what is nice about myth, (a point, I have no doubt, Morihei Ueshiba well-understood) -- myth is inherently transgressive and subversive -- it dissolves the neater categories of the mind, and yet it also supports and protects, creating new foundational categories to play with, all without necessarily offending the essential substance of the old ones. Or as the Fathers and Doctors have often said, grace fulfills and perfects nature, it does not supplant it.

For my money, there is no more suggestive and visually interesting application of Whitehead's process of prehensions and concresence of occasions and Husserl's intentional and protentional phenomena than Stephen Wolfram's tome on a computational approach to science. One need not agree with his proposed program of investigation, or his underlying assumptions, to appreciate his illustration of the things of wonder that evolve from a very simple matter of repeated arithmetic.

Pattern and flow, eddy and vortex, call and response. No-mind is of this nature.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 06-28-2009, 03:39 PM   #37
Charles Hill
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Quote:
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After a day of labor I'm proud to say I have a son; his name is Benjamin; it was by far the most profound experience of my life...words cannot describe.
Absolutely wonderful news!

Charles
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:47 AM   #38
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

I think it is focus and concentration, not being distracted.
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Old 07-03-2009, 07:43 PM   #39
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Hi Peter A Goldsbury, I read about " No Mind" so I extract on Theory of " Mushin Mu Gamae" theory of Professor Kenji Tomiki. This is the Zero Applications of Mind and Without Stances. The accurate Taisabaki on exact applications on the Waza with the Kogeki and Atemi. This can only be properly applied by a Yudanshi, because this theory is known to Shodokan Aikido Yudanshi only. But the O' Sensei Murehei Ueshiba teaches to Professor Kenji Tomiki to Kamae and Hanmi. The exact Theory application is on actual situations without proper Mate and Dojo. The Nage must be of preparations on all Kogeki and Atemi. The time preparations of Nage which is the practice on Dojo and theories. I have some note from Shodokan Aikido Association----On 25th November 1972 the 2nd Japan Budo Festival was held in the Japan Budokan. This was an event surely worth a special mention. From the world of aikido, Kisshomaru Ueshiba (2nd head of Aikikai), Gozo Shioda (head of Yoshinkan) and Kenji Tomiki (head of the Japan Aikido Association) were present. It was the first time in history that they had met in the same building. However, the event didn't take its intended course. In Tomiki Shihan's teaching while they were practising randori, all of a sudden they heard the announcement "What is going on now, Aikikai do not acknowledge" repeated several times.

Also, one of the festival committee members, while having invited them there, at the same time denied that the content was aikido. The atmosphere was such that the younger university students who were watching almost surged forward from their seats.

However, Tomiki Sensei didn't mind at all and continued to teach. Anyway, they didn't calm down and as soon as they finished they asked him about this.

Shihan's reply was simply, "The people who understand, understand prefectly. So you don't need to worry." They recall that he thought that was either his presence of mind or his concentration on what he was doing. Twenty years have passed since then and that was the first and last time these three people from the world of aikido had met in the same building. It is said that the spirit of aikido is harmony so he was very disappointed by this. May this note of theory explain some doubt. From; JUDOJO

Last edited by judojo : 07-03-2009 at 07:50 PM.

REYNALDO L. ALBAŅO
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Old 07-05-2009, 11:06 PM   #40
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

The Shodokan dogma is that all you need to know is taught in the first lesson - or more specifically the theory is known by all who practice. At Shodokan Honbu there is a huge caligraphy seen by all saying Mushin Mugamae.

It may take some time to appreciate and understand the theory but there are no secrets.

The mushin part is the same as no mind - mugamae is the physical manifestation. The best way of interpretting the statement is that one should not guess what the attackers intent is but leave yourself free. Assuming a particular stance, which may be useful in some learning situations, will work against you.

Quote:
Reynaldo L. Albano wrote: View Post
Hi Peter A Goldsbury, I read about " No Mind" so I extract on Theory of " Mushin Mu Gamae" theory of Professor Kenji Tomiki. This is the Zero Applications of Mind and Without Stances. The accurate Taisabaki on exact applications on the Waza with the Kogeki and Atemi. This can only be properly applied by a Yudanshi, because this theory is known to Shodokan Aikido Yudanshi only.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-05-2009, 11:19 PM   #41
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Found on page 2 of this aritlce.( http://www.tricycle.com/web-exclusiv...ort?page=0%2C0)

In Second Wind Bill Russell mentions many of the qualities athletes may experience in the zone: profound joy, acute intuition (which at times feels like precognition), a feeling of effortlessness in the midst of intense exertion, a sense of the action taking place in slow motion, feelings of awe and perfection, increased mastery, and self-transcendence.
Others have highlighted different aspects of zone-type experiences. Besides heightened performance, the quality mentioned most often is probably concentration. British golfer Tony Jacklin says, "When I'm in this state, this cocoon of concentration, I'm living fully in the present, not moving out of it."

Mentioned almost as frequently as concentration by those discussing the zone are calmness and confidence. In his autobiography, My Life and the Beautiful Game, soccer genius Pele recalls a day when he experienced "a strange calmness" unlike anything he had experienced ever before: "It was a type of euphoria; I felt I could run all day without tiring, that I could dribble through any of their team or all of them, that I could almost pass through them physically." Athletes also describe perceptual enhancement as an aspect of the zone. For Michael Jordan, "The rim seems like a big ol' huge bucket." According to the Golden State Warriors' John Starks, "It's like you see something just before it really happens." John Olerud of baseball's New York Mets says, "When things are going well, there seems to be more time to react to a pitch. And it doesn't matter what that pitch is."

Thank you
David

Last edited by dps : 07-05-2009 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:34 PM   #42
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Charles,

Rather than Wikipedia, I suggest the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. The URL is http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/heraclitus/

Heraclitus needs to considered in relation to Parmenides of Elea, who appears to have denied the possibility of change.

As for experience or perception of time, try this article, again from the Stanford Encyclopedia: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time-experience/

Best wishes,

PAG
Just as an aside, thank you very much for the links. It has been so many years (decades) since grad school in Philosophy that it never occurred to me to look for a good on-line resource. I did try Wikipedia on various philosophical issues a few times but usually found them lacking. The Stanford site is a great improvement!

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Old 07-06-2009, 08:46 PM   #43
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

"No-mind" is not "thinking about nothing" because nothing is something. It is the void of cognition. When thoughts enter time and again, let them run their course. Fighting them away is counter-productive.

Drew
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Old 07-07-2009, 12:37 AM   #44
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Have you ever done something without thinking about it and it came out just perfect?

Say parking a car smoothly without really calculating angles and speed and turns etc.
Or said something really funny without thinking of something funny to say at all, and everyone just naturally laughed?

I've had moments... a kid threw a stone right at my eye when I was small, and I blocked it without really thinking of doing it.
I notched an arrow and shot the bulls eye 30feet away without aiming more than a second.
I shot a 1cm thick iron board with a 9mm 25ft away again without aiming more than a second.
And the best part, I just did henka waza without really thinking about it and uke doesn't even know what happened.

No mind is doing it. Without thought.
No mind is achieving the state without thought.
Its eradicating my ego. Of wanting something. Its just doing it because... nothing.

I wish I can achieve this state at will but that is already wanting.
I'm just happy I can keep training. Aikido is a wonderful art.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:50 AM   #45
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

I thought of this clip from The Last Samurai. I highly recommend not repeating "no mind" to yourself (as Mr. Cruises character does at :41) if you find yourself in a similar situation in late 19th century Japan.
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Old 07-07-2009, 09:47 AM   #46
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Have you ever done something without thinking about it and it came out just perfect?
I notched an arrow and shot the bulls eye 30feet away without aiming more than a second.
I wonder how mind-clearing kyudo is. Just because I rarely hear about it, it doesn't seem that popular in the States. Maybe I'll be able to try it out one day since I enjoy archery and a clear mind.

Drew
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Old 07-07-2009, 12:03 PM   #47
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote: View Post
I wonder how mind-clearing kyudo is. Just because I rarely hear about it, it doesn't seem that popular in the States. Maybe I'll be able to try it out one day since I enjoy archery and a clear mind.

Drew
I was able to give it a taste one day and if the yumi weren't so expensive, I would definately have taken it up. I still go through the motions of what I am able to recall and it does have a nice centering feel for me.
Nice painting by the way! Does that process help clear the mind? For me poetry and the other hobbies I have are with mixed results, but I think a lot of that has to do with my approach.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-07-2009, 12:24 PM   #48
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Nice painting by the way! Does that process help clear the mind? For me poetry and the other hobbies I have are with mixed results, but I think a lot of that has to do with my approach.
Thanks so much, Matthew. In my Fuji-san piece, the part of mixing blues and blending them into a sky cleared my mind, and I felt really free. However, when it came to mixing raw and burnt siennas and dark yellows for the rocks in front of the mountain, I had some, but less freedom. Painting lines on the snow cap was a highly focused effort that I really had to concentrate on. Therefore, different aspects of a painting can take me from close to clarity, to intense focus.

With my most recent painting, the katate-dori "Accomplishment of Courage," brushing the solid green on the lower half was relaxing and mind-clearing, whereas almost every other part of the painting was nerve-racking and demanded my complete concentration.

Like you said, there are "mixed results." With poetry, if I'm just writing a stream-of-consciousness piece, it can be cathartic and promote clarity of mind. On the other hand, if I'm really striving to produce a high-quality poem, it's hard work.

I think that finding a place outdoors, assuming it's not way to hot in the shade in summertime, sitting in lotus or seiza or whatever is comfortable and just engaging in raw meditation is possibly the best.

Drew
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:32 PM   #49
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

Quote:
"No-mind" is not "thinking about nothing" because nothing is something. It is the void of cognition. When thoughts enter time and again, let them run their course. Fighting them away is counter-productive.
Was thinking on this tonight. Mushin was interrupted rather rudely and this came to mind when I wanted to get back there. Thanks Drew, you may have helped me with something I had been trying to work out.
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:59 AM   #50
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Re: "No Mind" - What is it?

I'm glad that helped, Cherie. The idea of avoiding forced thought suppression I learned from a book, and I'm pretty sure it was George Leonard's materpiece, "The Way of Aikido: Life Lessons from an American Sensei." Even if it wasn't from this particular book, Leonard Sensei's work has been an essential, positive influence on me. I'll probably read it again today.

Although mostly indirectly Aikido related, his book "Mastery" is also genius.

Drew
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