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Old 03-24-2002, 10:01 PM   #26
akiy
 
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Re: rolling? when>

Quote:
Originally posted by nyaikido
Breakfalls are rolling by touching the ground with your shoulder first: you have to be round and get your head very, very low before your feet go overhead. No magic there.
The kind of "breakfalls" that you probably see over in New York City are those I might call "non-breakfall" breakfalls. In other words, they're more akin to forward rolls than to the "in the air" breakfalls that other folks do. I have a friend who pretty much does these "non-breakfall" breakfalls that she learned at New York Aikikai; I believe Waite sensei does them frequently, too.

The "silent" breakfalls I refer to I've seen done by folks from New England Aikikai, some Yoshinkan practioners, students of Obata sensei (unsurprisingly as he was a Yoshinkan uchideshi), and some jujutsu people. Some call it the "fan" ukemi as, when uke "reaches" over with his hand, it looks somewhat like a fan opening up then closing as the person lands ("silently") onto the ground...

-- Jun

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Old 03-25-2002, 10:14 AM   #27
Paul Clark
Dojo: Yellow Springs Aikido
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Quote:
Our dojo has been described as "invigorating"
There is still nothing quite as invigorating as 20 minutes of ukemi practice at Capitol City Aikido in Montgomery, AL!

Paul
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Old 03-25-2002, 11:15 AM   #28
guest1234
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Ah, the mystery unfolds... my sensei, before he studied under Chiba Sensei, studied Yoshinkan Aikido... perhaps that is where the silent breakfall came from I just assumed it was magic...

I'm looking foward to learning them but be forewarned I'm dense...
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Old 04-03-2002, 08:57 AM   #29
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
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rolling roundly

Gee, didn't everybody get four years of gymnastics in High School Gym class?

Sometimes I forget, we don't all have the same learning experiences to draw upon?

Relax ... learn to sit and roll on your rounded back. Left shoulder to right hip, and right shoulder to left hip. Never let your head touch the mat as you tuck your chin and try to touch your nose to belly button ... ROUND!

Program the body/mind to accept round with rolling round ... and then forward rolling becomes that much easier.

I used to laugh at being thrown, because I could roll gymnastically, but after slamming my head hard enough to nearly knock me out, turning my brains to jelly, I learned another type of roll very quickly.

There is nothing childlike about falling backward from a sqatting position, or rocking on your rounded back to either warm up the muscles, or to program the mind to round the body for rolls.

I know we don't always use rock/roll warmups to squatting position in warmups, but that seems to be the preferred method to get ready for beginners to Aikido Roll! ... low breakfalls, and Rock and Roll.

I know ... it is not as much fun as diving over four of five bowing bodies nose to toes, but at sometime even them gymnastic jumps/rolls come to an end for more less physical practical applications.

Practice at you own pace. You'll get it.
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Old 04-03-2002, 09:09 AM   #30
Bruce Baker
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rolling/ silent breakfalls

Silent breakfall is to roll through the fall, or follow the energy of the fall into a roll or energy dispersion.

Silence. How strange it sounds when a 280lbs man is nearly silent, and 165 lbs man slams so loudly it almost assaults the senses?

It also hurts less, and allows for faster recovery ... one of my pet pieves "...to always be ready to defend yourself." Holdover from karate, I guess?

Have fun learning.
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Old 04-03-2002, 09:35 AM   #31
akiy
 
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Re: rolling/ silent breakfalls

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Silent breakfall is to roll through the fall, or follow the energy of the fall into a roll or energy dispersion.
Not necessarily. There are many versions of taking soft breakfalls, some versions of which involve, basically, turning a breakfall into a roll (like that described above done by folks like Donovan Waite sensei). Other kinds which I have already described above include those I have seen taken by some jujutsu people, students of Kanai sensei, students of Obata sensei, and folks over from Russia. I have heard many aikido students in Frace are very adept at taking soft breakfalls from all sorts of positions, but I have yet to see/experience them. Maybe some day.

-- Jun

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Old 04-23-2002, 11:35 AM   #32
Jim23
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Re: rolling? when>

Quote:

Teaching rolling right away is a good way to get rid of a student who is not determined to learn aikido. Better to weed out the least earnest before wasting hours and hours on technique, I say.

No one would disagree that ukemi is vital to aikido. But why are so many so opinionated as to how early beginners should start? Whatever happened to "learn at your own pace" and "Aikido is for everyone, regardless of age, weight, etc."?

I started ukemi (forward rolls from standing, etc.) on my first lesson and did reasonably well. Berfore I knew it, I was doing "lenghts" of the dojo with everyone else. After about a month - and a few nasty mistakes - I started finding it painful and increasingly difficult. So much so, that I almost developed mat-phobia. I had to lay off it for a while until the shoulders started feeling better.

In hindsight, I feel that I started too soon and did too much.

Everyone here is quick to say that a shodan should just be considered a beginner. If that's the case, then what's the rush with a newbie?

Yes, Gertrude ... your baby will learn to walk!

Jim23

Last edited by Jim23 : 04-23-2002 at 12:01 PM.

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Old 07-14-2002, 10:24 AM   #33
mike lee
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Smile

I teach forward and backward rolling from day one. Good ukemi is a student's best friend. It makes aikido much more fun to do.

I teach breakfalls at 4 kyu, sometimes sooner if someone shows interest.

I throw all the students myself until they become completely proficient at taking breakfalls. This is because I'm big and strong, I know what I'm doing, and I can support them if they start to fall badly. I try to build up their confidence and reduce their fear. I try to quickly help them overcome the "good side, bad side" syndrome.

I never let students who are just learning to take breakfalls to "experiment" on each other. Such a situation usually leads to painful and unnecessary injuries.

I even throw them, ever so slowly and carefully, with koshi-nage, even though they are not learning this waza yet. This is just to give them a chance to overcome their fear of falling. I know for a fact that when they become shodan, they will be experts at ukemi, and they will thank me for it. This is because they will meet other shodan who are still afraid and are always getting hurt. My students seldom get hurt because they have the skill, they are relaxed and confident, and their bodies are full of ki. This is the right way to practice aikido.

When prospective students come to watch, I intentionally throw students so that they have to take breakfalls. This lets the visitors know immediately what they're in for if they want to study aikido. I'm not trying to scare them away or impress them with my skill. I just want them to know right away what is expected.

If anything, I'm showing off my students' skill. I'm showing off how much they've learned in such a short time. I'm very proud of them. There should be no doubt about it -- you've got to have some guts want to learn aikido.

My suggestion to new students is to work on it every day. Don't over-do it, but don't avoid it either. If you have a weakness, face it and work on it. Little by little, you will improve.

P.S. There's nothing more disgusting to me than a black belt in aikido who is still afraid to fall, regardless of their long list of excuses.

Last edited by mike lee : 07-14-2002 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 07-14-2002, 02:56 PM   #34
Arianah
Dojo: Aikido of Norwalk
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Follow up question:
If you teach your students to roll from day one, does that mean that that is the type of fall they take from throws from day one? Where I train, we start out with sit-falls (putting your knee down and rolling onto your back, and slapping the mat), and forward falls (going straight to the floor, breaking your fall with your forearm, then lowering yourself onto your stomach). Forward rolls come three or four weeks into a beginners' class. Backward rolls a few weeks later.

I wonder about terminology differences when discussing falls. Where I train, the word "breakfall" is reserved for high falls. Do others use it for anything other than a roll? Would a sit-fall (as I described above) be considered a breakfall because of the slap, or a roll (rolling onto your back, but not over), or neither? Just questioning differences in terms.

Sarah

Last edited by Arianah : 07-14-2002 at 04:55 PM.

Out of clutter, find simplicity.
From discord, find harmony.
In the middle of difficulty, lies opportunity.
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Old 07-15-2002, 03:10 AM   #35
erikmenzel
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For terminology, we at our school don't use the word break-fall (or its dutch equivalent). We simply use the term ukemi in which every espect of being uke is incorporated. This also includes falling, flipping and rolling but is definitly not restricted to those parts of ukemi.

As we practise rolling every class, beginners are expected to practise rolling every class as well. Of course they will be helped by one of the sempai. In practise beginners are expected and allowed to do the ukemi their up to, so this varies per person. Some people take years to be comfortable in techniques with flips and others are really quick.

In our experience having a not so obvious example helps people to do flips and rolls. Every one expects the advanced students to flip. If one of the big masculine sempai does a flip people tend to look at this as something only the advanced students do and is still beyond their reach. Luckily sometimes some special talent comes in and opens some eyes. We have a little, fragile looking, woman that started to do flips comfortably from almost every technique (Kote gaeshi, sumi otoshi, shiho nage etc) within a year. Her flipping showed people that it can be done by everybody and inspired lots of people to practise and do flips. Of course being helped and guided by the sempai also helps.

Last edited by erikmenzel : 07-15-2002 at 03:13 AM.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 07-15-2002, 04:31 AM   #36
mike lee
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Smile

Where I practice, white belts only fall backwards when doing waza -- specifically, irimi-nage and shiho-nage.

Fifth kyu and above begin doing forward rolls with waza. I start teaching white belts forward-rolling in practice because it takes time to learn. Then, by the time they are 5 kyu, they are fairly proficient.

One could take a breakfall when falling backward or forward, although a backward breakfall is rarely done in aikido because it would usually involve a trip or hip throw more commonly used in judo. Nevertheless, aikidoists should be capable and even comfortable at taking a backward breakfall. (This is especially important when you meet the occasional macho show-off.)

I also met a sensei from Hombu Dojo in Japan who loved throwing students backward over his thigh. In this case, a backward breakfall was needed. Since we rarely do such waza in aikido, many students are uncomfortable with such falls.

Students where I practice begin taking forward breakfalls at the 4 kyu level.

Last edited by mike lee : 07-15-2002 at 04:45 AM.
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Old 07-16-2002, 02:59 AM   #37
Jim ashby
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In our Dojo rolling breakfalls are taught from day one, as are "slapping" breakfalls. Our Sensei feels that these skills are essential for anyone to fully experience Aikido.
Of course, there are people that cannot breakfall due to physical difficulties (we once had a student in in a wheelchair)but anyone who says "I can't do that" without even trying is gently told of the Sensei who taught most of the beginners classes before he moved away. He had one leg and he could breakfall from anywhere.
If you tell people "this one's really difficult" guess what happens? Yep, you're proved right. If you see a problem it'll be a problem.
Have fun.
PS, Big Bob the cyberstalker can breakfall with the best and he's not light! (private joke)

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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Old 07-16-2002, 03:21 AM   #38
mike lee
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Cool

Never saw a rolling breakfall. Sounds difficult. And that slapping must really hurt!
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Old 07-16-2002, 05:50 AM   #39
Harms
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Quote:
mike lee wrote:
Never saw a rolling breakfall. Sounds difficult. And that slapping must really hurt!
A girl in my club knows how to do it. She does it as quiet as a normal fall but it is definetly not a "normal" forward fall she is doing.
I have tried to learn how to do it and I can manage to start and end standing but with three loud *thumps* when my shoulder, hip and feet hits the floor
It's my summer project to learn how to do it without hurting myself
/Tobias
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Old 07-16-2002, 01:35 PM   #40
Arianah
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A rolling breakfall? Is that where you start out in a forward roll, but rather than come up to standing, end in breakfall position on the ground?

Sarah

Out of clutter, find simplicity.
From discord, find harmony.
In the middle of difficulty, lies opportunity.
-Albert Einstein
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Old 07-16-2002, 02:11 PM   #41
Steven
 
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Where I first started my training, we used forward roll, judo roll (forward roll with slap), break fall, back roll, back fall and side fall.

Yoshinkan terminology is.

Front fall - mai ukemi
Back fall - ushiro or koho ukemi
Side fall - yoko ukemi

Forward roll = zenpo kaiten ukemi
Forward Break fall = Zenpo hiyaku ukemi
Backup roll - koho kaiten ukemi

We teach all ukemi day one, then incorporate a technique that uses that ukemi and build from there.

That's my story anyway ...
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Old 07-17-2002, 03:03 AM   #42
Harms
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Quote:
Arianah wrote:
A rolling breakfall? Is that where you start out in a forward roll, but rather than come up to standing, end in breakfall position on the ground?
No you get thrown with same amount of energy and intention as in a breakfall but instead you roll out of it. Its like an quite long zenpo kaiten ukemi with other hand forward.

I think its the same type of roll others have discribed in this thread but the girl in my club doesn't seem to know how or where she has learned it so I can't trace the origin.

In my club we start with bac krolls allmost from day one. Forward rolls is introduced shortly after. I belive we're trying to let them sample as many parts of aikido as possible early in the training. So we start praticing movement, tecniques and falls in the first week. There is of course quite much talking the first couple of sessions.

/Tobias
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Old 07-17-2002, 10:56 AM   #43
Leslie Parks
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Smile Ukemi Instruction

Since the intial query was about forward rolling, I have outlined our "beginning" ukemi curriculum below. This is just our way and works for us. The caveat is that with young kids, I usually teach forward rolling either first or second lesson, depending on the child. It seems the older we get, the further away the mat is.

BTW, our forward and side breakfalls we teach as the student is ready, usually within the first year. We have a series of instructional drills that lead up to doing the falls fully. The side fall especially becomes necessary in some of our throws (iriminage, tenshinage, shihonage), so you don't want to wait too long. It is a 3rd kyu requirement.

And, in my opinion, ukemi is 60% of aikido. You have to have it as uke and as nage, you have to have some knowledge of it. JUST MY OPINION.

and...umm...what is a flop???

_________________________

In our dojo, most students start out in "Introductory" classes. These are geared to the student fresh off the street. They run for six weeks, then we start over again. We teach the basics of safe falling (ukemi), the basics of body movement (tai sabaki), and some basic throws (waza). In an ukemi curriculum taught to us by Toyoda Sensei,

1st week: koho tento undo (elsewhere called "sitfalls"...I think), first from sitting, then to kneeling, then to standing. Add on stepping back with slap (ushiro ukemi breakfall...as we call it). Usually we teach a basic kokyunage, sumiotoshi or kotaegaeshi with this

2nd week: review of above, add forward fall (as from ikkyo et al.) drills

3rd week: koho tento undo exercise, may teach sankyo either pinning or backward throwing among others

4th week: koho tento undo (always, always) one technique requiring this. Mae ukemi (forward rolling) instruction, first from kneeling, then from standing, focusing on form (as a precursor, teach orenaite-unbendable arm). Either irimi kaitenage or ikkyo nage for technique practice, letting new students set up to roll safely.

5th week: as above, as appropriate

6th week: as above, as appropriate

______________________________________
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Old 07-18-2002, 09:39 AM   #44
SeiserL
 
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Rolling, forward and back, are taught from day one. Without the ability to take the fall/roll, you cannot really practice the waza.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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