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Old 06-20-2009, 08:35 PM   #51
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

No.
You are making a value judgment and not looking at what is happening.

What we see here cannot be judged by the rules of Kendo anymore then it can be judged by the rules of Judo. What we are seeing here is not Kendo. What we are seeing here is a sparring session between people trained in different arts.

The Kendoka do many times get the initial strike. But the Judoka doesn't do bad either, especially as the matches go on. This is a shinai fight, so it's hard to say what would happen with other weapons, so I won't even try to speculate.

What is clear is that the Kendoka do not have the upper hand. In fact they look frazzled and overwhelmed by the shear force and power of the Judoka. This kind of fighting is clearly out of the norm of their training, and they were not ready for it.

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Old 06-20-2009, 11:20 PM   #52
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
The Kendoka do many times get the initial strike.
Then everything that happens afterward is irrelevant. Kent is not looking at this through kendo eyes, he's looking at it through the eyes of what would happen with real swords. This isn't a free sparring match a la the Dog Brothers, with a mutual understanding of principles governing the situation. The kendo guys are approaching this through the use of the edged weapon, while the judo guy is just whacking away with his bamboo stick. The kendo guys train not to just go wildly whacking in because with edged weapons that gets you killed, as the judo fellow amply demonstrated.

Josh Reyer

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Old 06-21-2009, 05:06 AM   #53
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

However they don't train with real swords, and none of these guys have ever been in a "real sword fight". It's all just speculation if you want to say what would happen with a real sword.

How do you know what would happen if you hit the wrist the way a Kendoka does with a real sword. No one knows. I assume (we all know what that does) that the wrist would be cut, but how bad, I don't know. Maybe bad enough that the wrist couldn't be used, maybe, maybe not so bad that the guy fighting couldn't stay focused long enough to deal a death blow himself.

We enter onto a slippery slope when we start guessing about stuff that none of use know about. When we start asking questions like "what happens in reality" is a hard question to answer when none of us really know.

In this you would guess that guys who fight with bamboo swords could run circles around guys who don't fight with bamboo swords. This video shows that this is not the case. We all have what we think would happen, but that doesn't make it so.

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Old 06-21-2009, 05:59 AM   #54
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
How do you know what would happen if you hit the wrist the way a Kendoka does with a real sword. No one knows. I assume (we all know what that does) that the wrist would be cut, but how bad, I don't know. Maybe bad enough that the wrist couldn't be used, maybe, maybe not so bad that the guy fighting couldn't stay focused long enough to deal a death blow himself.
That's is a specious argument at best. Because it's not a real fight with real weapons, no one can say with 100% certainty and accuracy what exactly would happen. Okat, but you seem to conclude that because we are not 100% sure what would happen, we can assume anything we want would happen. I've never cut a person, but I can tell you what happens when this kendoka hits a rolled tatami omote with a sword they way he would hit a wrist with a shinai. The top part of the tatami omote falls on the floor.

But that's not the point. The point is that the other guy completely ignores strikes from the other person's simulated sword to deliver his own blows after being struck. Sure, maybe he'd still be alive. And conscious. And able to hold onto his weapon. But maybe (probably) not. Hoping the other persons blows are ineffective is a really, really stupid strategy to implement.

Quote:
In this you would guess that guys who fight with bamboo swords could run circles around guys who don't fight with bamboo swords. This video shows that this is not the case.
That is exactly what the video shows, unless you assume that shinai are only shinai, which is daft. Only an idiot would train to fight with shinai as shinai. They're designed specifically to make it harder to seriously injure people. They're force dividers, not multipliers.

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Old 06-21-2009, 07:39 AM   #55
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

I find a lot of these arguments that "we don't know how bad the damage would be because we haven't done it" to be rather weak. Things like "oh, if the hasuji is off it might not be such a serious cut" and such to be rather absurd. You know what will happen? Some pretty serious damage will happen, regardless of how perfect the technique is or not. This idea that it is so hard to inflict damage with a three foot long piece of sharpened steel and EVERYONE cut or stabbed is going to go on fighting to the last breath just like you hear in the war books just seems more than a bit out of touch with reality.

I am particularly touchy on this topic today in light of something I stumbled across earlier today on the net. I stumbled across what I thought was a documentary clip about the assassination of Inejiro Asanuma in 1960. For those that don't know he was a politician who was killed on television by a 17 year old right winger who ran on stage and stabbed him with a wakizashi (there is a very famous picture of the event just after Asanuma fell back and the blade came out that many of you may have seen). Much to my surprise (although with in internet what it is, I shouldn't have been) it was the actual footage of the assassination, complete with slow motion replay. The kid just ran up and stuck the wakizashi into his side all the way up to the hilt with no problem. No technique necessary. Asanuma just fell over and was dead soon after. This is what happens when you get stuck with a sword, no speculation needed, it's the real deal.

As for the guys in the video, I think both sides have something to learn. For one, the judo guys were dead more often than not. Now depending on the attack the kendo practitioners landed, it might not stop the judo guy right away. Shock and trauma have a tendency to occasionally make people do some pretty amazing things (ala the stories you read in the war books). I recall reading that some ryu's teachings (this was in a book, so I'm not giving up anyone's secrets here) that a cut to the wrists will probably not stop the incoming blow, even if you completely take their hand off, but a trust to the stomach will almost always stop someone dead in their tracks. Have I tried it? No, but I'll take their word on it. So maybe in some cases the judo guys could have fought on a bit longer. With that said, the majority of the time they would have been dead on the spot, pretty soon after or at least maimed for life. In any case, the judo guys seemed to have no awareness at all of that fact and basically ignored it, in many cases they even impaled themselves on the other guy's sword for them. That point alone makes a fair amount of what they did afterwards a moot point. In fact for them it seemed that regardless of the number of times struck or stabbed, it wasn't over until the other guy was on the ground.

Now as for the kendo guys, I would also agree that they aren't so good at dealing with follow up pressure after a successful attack. Given what they train to do, that is no surprise really. But with that said, I think in many cases all they had to do was run away for a bit and nature would have taken care of the other guy, where as if they stayed in the thick of it, yes they might very well have been killed. If they wanted to train for the "real situation" they might want to include some extra work on the guy who "isn't going out without a fight", but I think the bulk of the time, the other guy would have been lying on the floor in shock, like Asanuma was for real just before he died.

A bit grumpy on this topic today,
Rennis Buchner
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Old 06-21-2009, 07:55 AM   #56
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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However they don't train with real swords, and none of these guys have ever been in a "real sword fight". It's all just speculation if you want to say what would happen with a real sword.
I'm afraid you miss my point. It's entirely possible that the kendoka in this video would absolutely suck in a real sword fight; it really doesn't matter. What does matter is that they are approaching this particular encounter with shinai through the theory of sword use. Their goal is to strike their opponent first with the part of the shinai that approximates the optimal cutting edge of the sword. In this they succeed. The judo player, OTOH, is approaching this encounter through the theory of whipping his bamboo stick at his opponent no matter what. You could say that in this he succeeds. But since both players are playing by completely different rules, you can't say much else.

Your statement here:
Quote:
The Kendoka do many times get the initial strike.
essentially contradicts this statement:
Quote:
This kind of fighting is clearly out of the norm of their training, and they were not ready for it.
Against an unfamiliar opponent using an unorthodox style, they successfully executed in the combat idiom they train. Given what I've seen of kendo keiko (much different from shiai), were the kendoka to abandon that idiom and all sense of decorum and reigi simply to rush in and bash their opponent with their bamboo stick, I think you'd be surprised at the difference in performance.

Just one example, kirikaeshi.

The judoka is also very lucky that his opponents had the graciousness to forego mukaezuki everytime he rushed in.

Last edited by Josh Reyer : 06-21-2009 at 08:07 AM.

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Old 06-21-2009, 12:35 PM   #57
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Personally I don't feel that discussions about not knowing what would "really" happen if someone is hit with a weapon weak, and neither does anyone else who seriously contemplates weapon use.

You simply don't know, ask any police officer or solder who has unloaded a magazine into a man who just keeps coming an ends up stabbing him. It happens, much more frequently then the weapon user would like. There is an account in contemporary knife fighting of a knife fight going on for over 2 min, both men sustaining dozens of wounds, some quite serious, and both survived.

You never know what would happen, so to just make the assumption that you are going to touch someone with a sword and they are going to fall down is lacking realistic thought.

We are all just throwing conjecture around (myself included). And that is the answer I was getting at in regards to the original posted question. No one knows what would happen in reality, we all just have opinions. So regarding anyones weapons forms as "whacky-sticks" is arrogant, and lacks understanding of our true situation as martial artists.

The Kendoka did not do well. They fell down on the ground, they dropped their shinai, they turned their back, they put up their hands. If you want to talk about theories of "what would happen in reality", what do you think would happen if they were facing a sword?

My point here is not that Kendo is bad. I like Kendo, I train in Kendo. There are things that Kendo has to offer that are wonderful. My point is that none of us know what would happen in reality. This is because none of us are sword fighters (outside of our fantasies).

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Old 06-22-2009, 03:15 AM   #58
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Hello
Of course we know what happen when you hit someone with a sword, Fiore said that he prefers top have to fight 5 judicial duel than a fight with a long sword and without armour because it just take one mistake and one blow.

Regardless of what a 15th century Italian fencing master has to say, several people in the HEMA world, me included, had a go at cutting fresh carcass. You need very little force to cut fresh bones and tissues with a two handed weapon.
Since for us the blade is just a piece of homogeneous steel, we can not disrespect the blade by using on meat like butchers. And it does really help students in the way they strike.

To cut a hand at the wrist a simple one handed throwing of the blade, not event a proper cut, is more than enough, in fact it can go through 4 pig’s feet in a glove.

Two handed swords damage wise are only second to pole weapons as far as cutting wound track as concerned. Handguns riffle knives and even single handed swords are far behind.

It is pretty safe to say that you hit someone with a two handed sword, he will end up in two parts.

Now it is clear that both players in the video accepted the strike, ignored it and proceed to whack the others or somewhat believed they could suck it up like a punch and close in to wrestle.

That works both ways and that is why Chris does have point here, I have spared against a few kendoka, and they really do not have the concept of protecting themselves during or after the attack. It is all well and good to kill your opponent but from test cutting experience, you do not what to be on the path of the sword when it falls, regardless if its user is already dead.
That is not present in Kendo, and kendo practitioner does have a harder time to adapt to that or to counter in opposition than adapting to short edge strikes, which are very alien to them

Phil

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Old 06-22-2009, 04:37 AM   #59
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

George explains the reality of this thread very well.

As with Aikido, fixating on techniques and forms limits the outcome.
The reality is, "when he attacks I have already defeated him"
"when he attacks my sword has already cut him"
It generally takes at least 3o+ yrs of regular Aiki training before one begins to feel the sensations in this phenomenon, to be able to connect in perfect time with the Ukemi produced through the movement.
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Old 06-22-2009, 05:09 AM   #60
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Quote:
Chicko Xerri wrote: View Post
George explains the reality of this thread very well.
The reality is, "when he attacks I have already defeated him"
"when he attacks my sword has already cut him"
It generally takes at least 3o+ yrs of regular Aiki training before one begins to feel the sensations in this phenomenon, to be able to connect in perfect time with the Ukemi produced through the movement.
Really
so a boxer that jabs in opposition has 30 years of aikido then?

phil

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Old 06-22-2009, 11:26 PM   #61
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

I apologise to have confused you with my response to Georges explaiation. Perhaps when I get a little older I may understand further, deeper.
Osensei spoke of seeing the future in the origin of an attack. Watching time and the opponents movement slow, while Himself moveing freely in and around, seperate from that relative movement. But again it generally takes 25 or 35+ yrs of uninterupted Aiki study to manifest this phenomenon. If you are perseptive.
Oh! and of course, not to fixate on techniques.
To overcome an opponent with techniques, sword techniques or otherwise is in the catigory of Martial Arts. Aiki it seems to me is beyond the Martial Arts..
Cheers.
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Old 06-23-2009, 02:57 AM   #62
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Quote:
Chicko Xerri wrote: View Post
I apologise to have confused you with my response to Georges explaiation. Perhaps when I get a little older I may understand further, deeper.
Osensei spoke of seeing the future in the origin of an attack. Watching time and the opponents movement slow, while Himself moveing freely in and around, seperate from that relative movement. But again it generally takes 25 or 35+ yrs of uninterupted Aiki study to manifest this phenomenon. If you are perseptive.
Oh! and of course, not to fixate on techniques.
To overcome an opponent with techniques, sword techniques or otherwise is in the catigory of Martial Arts. Aiki it seems to me is beyond the Martial Arts..
Cheers.
Thanks, to be fair I was purposefully facetious.
I agree with your argument, I only disagree with the 20+ years to get it, let alone 20+ years of aiki.

You see that is exactly the basis for countering in opposition, you will find that in almost all sword system that is worth is weight in peanuts. Even rapierists do it, and rapier is really a poor excuse for a weapon.
It is much more crucial with weapons because you can not tank it out, so you do rely on time and place and to get it right you need to tune to your opponent.
Prehempting him is a bit of a misnomer, assessing what he is doing very early in his move is a more accurate description.
the whole 15th century Lichtanauer fencing is based around that.

If I put you on a horse with a full plate and lance and tell you the tilt is that way.
It will be overwhelming, it will happen in a flash
But with experience, you will have put you lance to the arrest; put your lance tip over his head, and corrected any wideness even before you enter the tilt, you will feel that you have all the time in the world to hit him, in fact you even have enough time to deflect his blow and hit him and the run takes 3-4 second max.
In a nut shell experience enables you to recognise the situation earlier and hence act upon it sooner.

Phil

Last edited by philippe willaume : 06-23-2009 at 03:02 AM.

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Old 07-26-2009, 03:44 AM   #63
Michael Fitzgerald
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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No arguments there.

In relation to this thread, I think asking the difference between "aiki-ken" and reality is a moot point. In "reality" no one fights with swords anymore. Every school has it's opinions, but no one has proof that what they do in a sword fight is more then opinion.
Would you say that the same could be said for Aiki-Do? (assuming that the practitioner is not out there, in reality, fighting with Aiki-Do [or at all])? not a challenge at all- just trying (perhaps clumsily) to illustrate that training is not fighting and vice versa, no matter what discipline we are talking about.
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Old 07-26-2009, 01:56 PM   #64
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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Michael Fitzgerald wrote: View Post
Would you say that the same could be said for Aiki-Do? (assuming that the practitioner is not out there, in reality, fighting with Aiki-Do [or at all])? not a challenge at all- just trying (perhaps clumsily) to illustrate that training is not fighting and vice versa, no matter what discipline we are talking about.
Yes. Martial artists study physical conflict, or fighting. But they are not necessarily fighters. In fact in the case of Aikido, the vast majority are not fighters.

Historians are not pirates or cowboys or knights, they simply study them.

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Old 07-28-2009, 02:31 AM   #65
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Yes. Martial artists study physical conflict, or fighting. But they are not necessarily fighters. In fact in the case of Aikido, the vast majority are not fighters.

Historians are not pirates or cowboys or knights, they simply study them.
yes yes- we are on the same page (literally and figuratively) with regard to not necessarily being fighters- although I would say that martial artists in general would not study physical conflict in the same way as say a hoplologist might- but that point is in danger of straying off topic.

I will go back then and re-read, as I think I interpreted the conversation incorrectly so far. I had thought that the conversation on no 'real' swordsmanship was implying that this was peculiar to the practice of sword arts- rather than across the board for any MA that practices potentially lethal techniques.
As I said though- I will go back over the thread.

thanks very much for responding! hope to chat to you again in future.
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Old 07-28-2009, 02:40 AM   #66
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

BTW Chris- I love your website- excellent, and thanks for having it out there for people.
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:46 AM   #67
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Quote:
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Yes. Martial artists study physical conflict, or fighting. But they are not necessarily fighters. In fact in the case of Aikido, the vast majority are not fighters.

Historians are not pirates or cowboys or knights, they simply study them.
Then fix it!
While it is true that the only way to learn how to fight is to fight-there are also too many out there re-inventing the wheel, and or repeating mistakes and arriving at false conclusions based on their own inadequacies. Further, that they are trying to introduce things into their art that do not belong-in a misguided attempt to fix what is broken- without ever really understanding just "what" was broken to begin with.

When does a modern fella "messing around" with a weapon he clearly knows little about using-in which his every move offers openings you could drive a truck through ever going to arrive at a conclusion on how to defend against someone who would leave little to no openings? How would a year of the training with the former stack up with one day of training with the later?
All the modern fella messing around will really do is feel good about his research until the day someone comes along who knows the weapon inside and out and hands him his head. The more things change-the more they stay the same.

Time is a precious thing. I would suggest finding people who really know what they are doing with a weapon in their hand and asking if you can try your stuff on them, ask to experiment. You might find that one day of work, with some seriously capable people might be worth 5 years of weekly training...in the wrong direction.
I will only say I know a whole bunch of Aikidoka who tried various versions of what is being discussed here, who went on to meet men who train with classical weapons and freestyle experiment with those principles who will say "Amen" to that.

False conclusions abound. Case in point the video with two judo guys using shinai to prove they could get inside a sword strike. Let’s introduce an electrical stun gun charge to the monouchi of the shinai and place it in the hands of someone really capable and see how well the Judo guy gets "inside" of that.
I have no words for someone being stupid enough to take the presence of a three foot razor blade so lightly that he can charge into one-so lets give him a "charge" back .
Then again watching the fella wielding it -I wouldn't take him seriously either. But all that does is point back to the thrust of my post; inadaquete players questioning the veracity of methods they know litte about and arriving at false conclusions and reinventing a wheel that won't hold up to scrutiny from capable men.

I applaud the idea of experimentation, I just question the parameters. I think many of us are capable of coming up with solutions- but few are really thinking it through and seriously doing the work. There are better solutions to this question than what is being presented here.
It starts with "the who" in who is wielding the weapon.
Then you can begin with some really challenging training and experimentation. Anything else is a waste of time.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 07-28-2009 at 05:57 AM.
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Old 07-28-2009, 06:40 AM   #68
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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Kent Enfield wrote: View Post
No.

What you have there is an ass being struck, ignoring it, then repeatedly pounding away ato uchi and thinking he's "winning" because his partner isn't doing the same.
I agree and disagree with Kent. Mostly agree.
We see LOTS of asses being struck, the stripeys against the skirteys (I cannot say Judoka v kendoka, there is no indication WITHIN the video of such) and they are all doing things unlikely to happen in a REAL SWORDFIGHT.
But Kent you're much much righter than Chris, in my opinion.
During the video there must be only 5% of the action valid in a REAL SWORDFIGHT context, 95% happens after some decisive blade contact which is totally ignored. Bunch of prats, the ref is awful too.

This is so very true too ;
Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
... I have spared against a few kendoka, and they really do not have the concept of protecting themselves during or after the attack. It is all well and good to kill your opponent but from test cutting experience, you do not what to be on the path of the sword when it falls, regardless if its user is already dead.
That is not present in Kendo, ...
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Old 07-28-2009, 06:57 AM   #69
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
... inadequate players questioning the veracity of methods they know little about and arriving at false conclusions and reinventing a wheel that won't hold up to scrutiny from capable men.
I love this description! I'll even happily confess to being one of the inadequate players from time to time...

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Old 07-28-2009, 10:23 AM   #70
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

I agree Dan. It would help a lot if all those who claim to know so much would actually put out some information instead of trying to be mysterious.

Going and fighting with people who actually fight did lots for my training. I know some others out there have done similar things, but they are not sharing. Video's might be a good way to get the ball rolling. Even if they are not a complete way to learn something, they might give interested parties something to work with, or interest them enough to go out and work with the people making the videos.

Mostly we all just throw our ideas around, which is good, but VERY limited. I have heard said many times in the past that video will not offer complete understanding of what is happening, but it is much less limited, in my opinion, then arguing over the internet.

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Old 07-28-2009, 05:04 PM   #71
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
SNIP
My point was... at a point were you match intensity with your opponent What prevails? SNIP
William Hazen
I've been thinking about this quite a bit ... Basically I just imposed my will and refused to allow things to proceed except the way I wanted. Can't really explain it any other way.
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Old 07-31-2009, 12:06 PM   #72
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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I agree Dan. It would help a lot if all those who claim to know so much would actually put out some information instead of trying to be mysterious.

Going and fighting with people who actually fight did lots for my training. I know some others out there have done similar things, but they are not sharing. Video's might be a good way to get the ball rolling. Even if they are not a complete way to learn something, they might give interested parties something to work with, or interest them enough to go out and work with the people making the videos.

Mostly we all just throw our ideas around, which is good, but VERY limited. I have heard said many times in the past that video will not offer complete understanding of what is happening, but it is much less limited, in my opinion, then arguing over the internet.
Of those I know capable of actually doing the work-not just talking about it-NONE would ever do a video in the first place and are VERY picky about who they share it with to boot! It's just the way of it. You can kick the messenger or dig around and find people to train with and eventually become one of them.
The current path I see you on in your videos just won't ever get you there. You are re-inventing the wheel with many false parameters. I don't know what else to say. I hope you can read my intent correctly when you ask for public opinions. I wish you well...like I said to you on several occasions, "I admire your mindset- not just the methods being shown." Weapons are a whole different enironment.
Good luck in your training
Dan
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Old 07-31-2009, 03:40 PM   #73
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Of those I know capable of actually doing the work-not just talking about it-NONE would ever do a video in the first place and are VERY picky about who they share it with to boot! It's just the way of it. You can kick the messenger or dig around and find people to train with and eventually become one of them.
The current path I see you on in your videos just won't ever get you there. You are re-inventing the wheel with many false parameters. I don't know what else to say. I hope you can read my intent correctly when you ask for public opinions. I wish you well...like I said to you on several occasions, "I admire your mindset- not just the methods being shown." Weapons are a whole different enironment.
Good luck in your training
Dan
Most people I encounter that don't want to show what they are doing are simply hiding their inadequacy.

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Old 07-31-2009, 06:37 PM   #74
stan baker
Location: east granby, ct
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Hi Chris,

Dan is not most people

stan
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Old 08-01-2009, 11:37 PM   #75
DonMagee
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

I find this thread funny, maybe because it's 1am.

It starts with aikidoka saying you can't learn how to sword fight without aliveness, and ends with aikidoka responding to videos saying "But nobody attacks like that!!"

The irony is overwhelming.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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