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Old 06-15-2009, 03:59 PM   #26
Aikibu
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
I was thinking more about the change in ones attitude when facing a live blade as opposed to the mechanical issues. Facing someone intent on cutting you who is well equipped is completely different then playing with wooden replicas.

I can tell you from first hand experience that years of training in the dojo with wooden weapons and even live knife blades did not compare to being attacked by a drug crazed person with an 8 inch chefs knife.
Perhaps...That would be a frightening experiance even if you were armed with a "live sword"

Were you armed with a bokken?

Mushashi killed opponents armed with a "live sword" with a "wacky stick"

In my experiance you can easily tell who practices with weapons from someone who does'nt.

In fact IMO it's MUCH EASIER to teach the core technical principles of Aikido with a bokken than with just grabbing Nage's wrist.

Thats the "reality" as Dan Shaun and others here have explained (much better than I LOL)

William Hazen

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16300

PS This excellent piece just posted by Sensei Stenudd today explains the importance of "sword work" much better than I have...

Last edited by Aikibu : 06-15-2009 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 06-15-2009, 04:07 PM   #27
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Excellent post George...as usual.
I was going to address that side of the equation-but thought I would get folks angry.
Since you brought up bogus Koryu versus the really good teachers and methods;
What is "real" aiki to be used in aiki weapons versus what is, for the most part, *bogus* aiki weapons. there is no aiki to be fun. Blending will not even being to cut it -pun intended.
Controlling their center at a touch is meant to go right to the tip of your sword or spear.

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
I was thinking more about the change in ones attitude when facing a live blade as opposed to the mechanical issues. Facing someone intent on cutting you who is well equipped is completely different then playing with wooden replicas.

I can tell you from first hand experience that years of training in the dojo with wooden weapons and even live knife blades did not compare to being attacked by a drug crazed person with an 8 inch chefs knife.
Well, I have been stabbed and sliced three times and I can appreciate the level of intensity from those experiences and others, but I never really got an adrenaline dump from it, just kept working and moving.
I have determined that there is Koryu training that is real enough to create certain stress factors I am looking for and working through and that it works in freestyle to deliver in unexpected ways, and its a hell of a lot of fun to boot.
It is worth noting that there are a guys who's level of being "on" while doing classical weapons is really quite something. For some of them it's immediate and sustainable. I'm not really concerned about "how" real someone judges it to be. I think we all have to determine our own standards of measurement or increments of degrees of reality.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-15-2009 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:55 AM   #28
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
I was thinking more about the change in ones attitude when facing a live blade as opposed to the mechanical issues. Facing someone intent on cutting you who is well equipped is completely different then playing with wooden replicas.

I can tell you from first hand experience that years of training in the dojo with wooden weapons and even live knife blades did not compare to being attacked by a drug crazed person with an 8 inch chefs knife.
Yes that is true
And one could almost believe that shinai and bokken where created so that you could be attacked with love and passion so that facing a live blade would not be so psychologically traumatic.

It just happen that the aiki-ken I practice (paint brush type of cut) is the way to cut when you rely on tip velocity to cut i.e. a chop as opposed to the more commonly known chop-slice.
You see a katana is really similar to a medieval Messer if you use it one handed and a gross Messer if you use it two handed, Chopping is the way to cut in my style of medieval fencing.
And amazingly enough, the technique we do in aiki ken are found in medieval long sword and the jo technique are found in half-swording.

Yes we do miss things to be a fully fledge sword style, but really after we start from the cross, if it does not work or there is hole in it, it is because it is not done right.

Phil

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Old 06-16-2009, 02:03 PM   #29
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
SNIP

It is worth noting that there are a guys who's level of being "on" while doing classical weapons is really quite something.
Dan
True, but few and far between. Any random person with intent and a live blade is way more 'fun' than the typical MAer (whatever that is) with wooden replicas (Musashis kill record aside).

My point was it is rare to be able to train with the intensity the matches the 'real deal'. When you find it there is no mistaking that it is something special and completely different.

Sorry to hear about the slicing and such .... I was unarmed and managed to prevail with no real damage to either party. My encounter was over before there was time for adrenaline dump (it kicked in after the fact pretty good tho!).

Last edited by Rob Watson : 06-16-2009 at 02:04 PM. Reason: new thought
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Old 06-16-2009, 02:56 PM   #30
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
True, but few and far between. Any random person with intent and a live blade is way more 'fun' than the typical MAer (whatever that is) with wooden replicas (Musashis kill record aside).

My point was it is rare to be able to train with the intensity the matches the 'real deal'. When you find it there is no mistaking that it is something special and completely different.

Sorry to hear about the slicing and such .... I was unarmed and managed to prevail with no real damage to either party. My encounter was over before there was time for adrenaline dump (it kicked in after the fact pretty good tho!).
Agreed..Few people I have met (me included quite allot more often these days) train with the intensity of life and death in mind.

My point was... at a point were you match intensity with your opponent What prevails? I am sure weapons can be a huge factor sure...But beside a huge dose of luck...What factors make one prevail in "reality"

I myself have experianced reality a few times without a Bokken or live blade. In hindsight I am happy that my Aikido Practice emphasizes "Aikido is the Sword"
and as a result I found my practice was very helpful.

William Hazen
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Old 06-17-2009, 03:27 AM   #31
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Agreed..Few people I have met (me included quite allot more often these days) train with the intensity of life and death in mind.

My point was... at a point were you match intensity with your opponent What prevails? I am sure weapons can be a huge factor sure...But beside a huge dose of luck...What factors make one prevail in "reality"

I myself have experianced reality a few times without a Bokken or live blade. In hindsight I am happy that my Aikido Practice emphasizes "Aikido is the Sword"
and as a result I found my practice was very helpful.

William Hazen
Hi William
I think lots, not say most, of tactical methods are directly transferable from fencing to hand to hand.
English bare knuckle pugilism (pre the-not-so-divine marquis) is thought to have been very close to fencing.

Most of you potential SD opponents will try to bypass you defence as you bypass the point of your opponent in fencing.
Beside duelling (I.E fighting conservatively from an organised position) is time consuming regardless of the weapon (as long it is not a projectile weapon that is) and that is not really in tune with the objective of your average SD customer.
phil

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Old 06-17-2009, 03:35 PM   #32
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

'whaky sticks' or reality? See anything that one does while practicing aikiken? I do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHWsM...eature=related

'whaky sticks' or reality? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN6FY...eature=related

Aikiken kumitachi #1 looks to be a 'rip off' from KSR (Kashima) along with maybe a few others of the kumitachi. After all someone of note did sign the enrollment books of the school, no?

The outer form means almost diddly compared to what is going on inside of one head during the 'execution' of the form.

Have we been suckered by a troll?
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Old 06-17-2009, 03:38 PM   #33
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
SNIP

What factors make one prevail in "reality"

SNIP

William Hazen
The one with the bigger saya ...

Who can say two are equal? Clearly the winner will be called superior or at least lucky.
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Old 06-17-2009, 04:18 PM   #34
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Aikiken kumitachi #1 looks to be a 'rip off' from KSR (Kashima) along with maybe a few others of the kumitachi. After all someone of note did sign the enrollment books of the school, no?

The outer form means almost diddly compared to what is going on inside of one head during the 'execution' of the form.

Have we been suckered by a troll?
Please don't mistake Kashima Shin-ryū with Kashima Shintō-ryū. Different Arts.

This is Kashima Shintō-ryū: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PvEegZ1XAE

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Old 06-17-2009, 09:11 PM   #35
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Sorry to be confusing ... the clip is not Kashima Shinto Ryu (which O'Sensei gave keppan) but is of Kashima Shinryu - I thought the clip title was self explanitory in this respect.

I gave that clip as an example of 'old school' versus aikiken which shows quite a few moves I've seen replicated in aikiken work. Coincidence or me seeing more than is there ... up to others to decide.
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Old 06-18-2009, 12:18 AM   #36
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Moin
Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
I gave that clip as an example of 'old school' versus aikiken which shows quite a few moves I've seen replicated in aikiken work. Coincidence or me seeing more than is there ... up to others to decide.
My aikido teacher is also sensei of the German shibu of TSKSR. It has nearly nothing in common with aikiken.
There is no shomen uchi e.g..

In our weapon practice we do the Inaba offshoot of KSR. It is quite different to aiki ken.
You don't blend with your partner but cut just trough him e.g..

We also do aikiken.
Which was created after aikido already existed.

Greetings
Carsten
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Old 06-18-2009, 10:43 AM   #37
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Moin

My aikido teacher is also sensei of the German shibu of TSKSR. It has nearly nothing in common with aikiken.
There is no shomen uchi e.g..

In our weapon practice we do the Inaba offshoot of KSR. It is quite different to aiki ken.
You don't blend with your partner but cut just trough him e.g..

We also do aikiken.
Which was created after aikido already existed.

Greetings
Carsten
The first clip is Kashima Shinryu simply for reference.

The KSR (Kashima Shinryu) you mention is ostensibly the same school but maybe you better double check with Inaba sensei about that.

Aikiken most certainly does have relations with Kashima Shinto Ryu (Shinto Ryu ans Shinryu are different http://www.koryu.com/guide/). I never mentioned TSKSR (which is Katori Shinto Ryu).

Perhaps I was misleading in my comment about seeing commonalities in the KSR clip. I do not mean to imply that aikiken comes from KSR in any way. I mean't that I see several moves that I do and have seen my instructor do in our practice of the aikiken that are seen in that clip . This does not mean anything in particular except the outer form is similar but also no doubt the inner aspects are difficult to discern from video.

Last edited by Rob Watson : 06-18-2009 at 10:48 AM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 06-18-2009, 01:04 PM   #38
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Hi
Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
The KSR (Kashima Shinryu) you mention is ostensibly the same school but maybe you better double check with Inaba sensei about that.
Kunii Zenya was the teacher of Inaba Minoru. So it is the same school. But it isn't officially recognized by Seki Humitake shihanke, so I call it the "the Inaba offshoot" or the "Inaba derivat" of KSR.
Yamaguchi was influenced by it and his student Christian Tissier who also studied it teaches this kenjutsu to us.

Quote:
I never mentioned TSKSR (which is Katori Shinto Ryu).
Well, but you posted a clip of Sugino Sensei of TSKSR, who was (as his son Yukihiro actually is) the katori teacher of my aikido Teacher:
Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Quote:
Perhaps I was misleading in my comment about seeing commonalities in the KSR clip. I do not mean to imply that aikiken comes from KSR in any way. I mean't that I see several moves that I do and have seen my instructor do in our practice of the aikiken that are seen in that clip . This does not mean anything in particular except the outer form is similar but also no doubt the inner aspects are difficult to discern from video.
I think it's especially the inner aspects which are crucial.

Greetings,
Carsten
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:41 PM   #39
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Aiki weapons but not Iwama (I mistakenly thought aikiken=Iwama) ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfGJpRwQWos&fmt=18

Primary influences are said to be via Inaba as well (I'm not too well informed about this so ...)

W'hacky sticks'? Many are confounded by Yamaguchi shihans aikido/aiki.
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:54 PM   #40
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

[quote=Carsten Möllering;232991SNIP
Well, but you posted a clip of Sugino Sensei of TSKSR, who was (as his son Yukihiro actually is) the katori teacher of my aikido Teacher:

SNIP[/QUOTE]

Quite right. As another example of a 'real' sword school. I made no comment about TSKSR other than that implied by most posting of the clip.

I do recall from the aikiexpo/friendship videos from Stan Pranin that Sugino sensei was quite distressed that he was never able to fulfill O'senseis request to come teach.

My reason for posting the clip is for those with little or no exposure to 'real' swordsmanship the clip shows a master at work to give a reference point. I feel no hesitation in using such as a reference point despite my absolute lack of any experience in 'real' swordwork.

Actually both clips are the same in this respect (a a reference). The value of such a reference is limited due to the complexity of extracting the internal aspects from the outward form which is the heart of the matter of aikiken vs. 'whacky sticks' and related inquiries.

The Yamaguchi sensei clip is a perfect example of this problem given the high level of aiki (internal) expressed throughout his execution. I think you will agree that the outer form is quite similar to Kashima Shinryu as expected given the history.
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:17 AM   #41
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
This is a fine example of what I wrote about earlier As aikido, it's pretty nifty, but as sword it's got flaws.

During the kumitachi segment, shitachi really smothers uke's cut, and riding the reversal is neat. However, it looks like about half the time he brings uke's sword to the inside of his right leg. If uke just continued around in the direction he's being taken, he'd have a good chance to cut all sorts of important things, like the tendons above the knee or the femoral artery.

Kentokuseisei
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Old 06-19-2009, 01:26 AM   #42
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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T... it looks like .. a good chance to cut all sorts of important things, ...
Yes it looks like.
But it only looks like.

The first thing, ukedachi tries when we practice this, is to get the leg of shidachi.
If the technique is done correct there is no way.

It only looks like ...

Greetings,
Carsten
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Old 06-19-2009, 01:50 AM   #43
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Yes it looks like.
But it only looks like.
So what prevents uke from cutting the leg? In the video posted, uke often has a clear line to the leg (see 0:42) and less distance to cover than shidachi does to any target available to him.

Kentokuseisei
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Old 06-19-2009, 02:23 AM   #44
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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Kent Enfield wrote: View Post
So what prevents uke from cutting the leg? In the video posted, uke often has a clear line to the leg (see 0:42) and less distance to cover than shidachi does to any target available to him.
For 0:42
I believe the answer to your question it is the pressure on uke sword,
This is the same idea as winden in medieval fencing.

If uke were to attack the leg, just continue the pressure with a forward motion that will deflect and shorten the strike and open the body,
As well that pressure will create enough time for nage can pass the exposed leg back to give to his attack


phil

Last edited by philippe willaume : 06-19-2009 at 02:27 AM.

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Old 06-19-2009, 09:33 PM   #45
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

Aiki ken v.s. reality.

I just found a great example on youtube of the difference between concepts/theory and fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEsMuvBwdDk

In the beginning you can tell it's just two Judoka going at it, with shinai. Basically you could say they are playing "whacky-sticks".

Then you start throwing Kendoka in to do jikeiko and we see something strange happen. The Kendoka clearly have better movment and skills with the shinai. However the pure violence of action, and power of the Judoka often win him the bout, or end in mutual strikes.

Fighting and training are different animals, until you've done both it's hard to understand this. As David Skaggs likes to say: "in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is".

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Old 06-20-2009, 06:15 PM   #46
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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Aiki ken v.s. reality.

I just found a great example on youtube of the difference between concepts/theory and fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEsMuvBwdDk

In the beginning you can tell it's just two Judoka going at it, with shinai. Basically you could say they are playing "whacky-sticks".

Then you start throwing Kendoka in to do jikeiko and we see something strange happen. The Kendoka clearly have better movment and skills with the shinai. However the pure violence of action, and power of the Judoka often win him the bout, or end in mutual strikes.

Fighting and training are different animals, until you've done both it's hard to understand this. As David Skaggs likes to say: "in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is".
This looks a lot like Araki Ryu vs Kendo... go straight to the center and crush your opponent, batter his defense until it collapses.

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Old 06-20-2009, 07:07 PM   #47
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Aiki ken v.s. reality.

I just found a great example on youtube of the difference between concepts/theory and fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEsMuvBwdDk

In the beginning you can tell it's just two Judoka going at it, with shinai. Basically you could say they are playing "whacky-sticks".

Then you start throwing Kendoka in to do jikeiko and we see something strange happen. The Kendoka clearly have better movment and skills with the shinai. However the pure violence of action, and power of the Judoka often win him the bout, or end in mutual strikes.

Fighting and training are different animals, until you've done both it's hard to understand this. As David Skaggs likes to say: "in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is".
I am sorry Chris but what I am missing here? Where is the "pure violence of action" and what exactly does that mean in this video...

Notice there are no tsuki/atemi with Shinai or fists among many other things that are lacking in this video...

This is just two guys a wacking...and While I agree fighting and training are different realities if you're not training to fight or as we put it learning to restore harmony... Then you're not practicing a Martial Art...Right???

Sincerely,

William Hazen
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Old 06-20-2009, 07:37 PM   #48
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

The point here is, these Kendo guys were taken by surprise when someone using non Kendo tactics comes at them with a sword.

They are not used to fighting in this manner. They have never done this kind of fighting before. Same is true with anyone who has never fought with a live sword. When someone comes at them, with over 2 feet of steel, trying to kill them, there ideals are going to fall apart. And likely they will end up doing as poorly as someone who doesn't train.

You can't compare idealized martial arts with actual fighting or as some might like to call it "reality".

In this situation the two guys just wacking,did pretty well against people who have been training in Kendo. This video holds a great lesson for most martial artists.

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Old 06-20-2009, 07:43 PM   #49
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Then you start throwing Kendoka in to do jikeiko and we see something strange happen. The Kendoka clearly have better movment and skills with the shinai. However the pure violence of action, and power of the Judoka often win him the bout, or end in mutual strikes.
No.

What you have there is an ass being struck, ignoring it, then repeatedly pounding away ato uchi and thinking he's "winning" because his partner isn't doing the same.

Kentokuseisei
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Old 06-20-2009, 07:53 PM   #50
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Re: Aiki-Ken vs reality

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No.

What you have there is an ass being struck, ignoring it, then repeatedly pounding away ato uchi and thinking he's "winning" because his partner isn't doing the same.
Uhhh Yeah...No disrespect to Sensei Hein but thats what I am seeing too...

William Hazen
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