Is training dangerous?!

[quote]I bet you will come to love the black hole feeling. It's the feeling of a technique done very right. No force, no muscle, just "how the heck did I get here on the mat?". [quote]

Hello Greg

I can certainly vouch for that kinda feeling having been launched into near geosync orbit by some very capable godan and sandan aikidoka. Its very satisfying to know what it feels like when the technique is done correctly and with power and also knowing that the ukemi was appropriate.

The main thing was that they were skilled enought to guide the uke into the correct position to allow the proper ukemi to be done so that the technique can be done powerfully but safely. That ofcourse assumes that uke is skilled enought to receive properly

It gives me a very tangible benchmark to aspire to when I do my techniques.

Yes having the world dropped out from under me and being sucked into a black hole is very appropo...and a real buzz when you ukemi out of it.

Mind you I have been in situations where I have been lax and complacent in my ukemi with me ending up looking like tatami generously layered with strawberry jam and vegemite .

Much to the disgust of my and much heavy sighing from my sensei. At least I know what Wile e Coyote feels like sometimes

Originally posted by Erik Sorry, full of crap, not! Rare, perhaps very, very, very rare, even in Japan where there is some history but it does happen. I also know of one student who was paralyzed during warm ups when a student rolled into her and another who had a stroke because she was kicked in the head, just right, and it damaged an artery.

More people die of drinking boiling water, than ... beh, this is pointless

Remember that aikido is a martial art. A few stories.

1. I entered the dojo a few minutes late. A beginning student had just been rushed to the hospital. In attempting to roll, he did it wrong and had to go under the knife for repairs on his shoulder.

2. One of my sensei told me that he was training in Greece and the mat was crowded and Jo was being practiced. Well, one guy was unfortunate enough to be struck twice in the head. Quote, "He was bleeding like pig."

3. Same Sensei, differnet occasion. He heard more than saw someone take a very high fall (improperly) rather roughly. After The X-rays showed a couple of broken ribs He never came back.

Let's not forget the various hard bumps, bruises, pulls strains and other mishaps that befall us as aikidoka.

"Let's be careful out there." What tv show?

ps. happy birthday to me! Dojo trdation says I'll have to take 36 (my age) falls before or after class 2night.

I think we each have to take responsibility to train in a safe manner both for others and for ourselves. Not recognizing nor acknowledging the dangers, however minute or slim, of serious injury or even death seems irresponsible to me. Accidents do happen, folks...

Only by being aware of the possibilities and training in such a way to minimize the risks can we actively prevent them to the best of our abilities.

-- Jun

Injuries of any fall, practice, and various unnatural positions will happen, but with insight, careful practice, and teachers who have seen many of the mistakes taught by overzealous practitioners of a Martial Art, they will take proper precautions to lesson injuries.

Maybe it is from a lifetime of injuries in various degree's that haven't included major bone breaks, just minor ones, that I tend to slow down many of the techniques until rythm and motion are almost a second nature when performed at full speed.

Of course, it could be from finding new meanings in Kata done in slow motion that allowed me to understand the physical dangers of many of the simple moves we take for granted in Martial Arts, Aikido included.

I like to remember the tooth pick.

We can use it to pick our teeth in a restaurant, but in a tornado it can be driven through the trunk of a tree? Chance, or predestiny?

I don't leave toothpicks out, anymore.

Originally posted by akiy I think we each have to take responsibility to train in a safe manner both for others and for ourselves. Not recognizing nor acknowledging the dangers, however minute or slim, of serious injury or even death seems irresponsible to me. Accidents do happen, folks... Only by being aware of the possibilities and training in such a way to minimize the risks can we actively prevent them to the best of our abilities. -- Jun

I agree and nicely put. I dont think anyone deliberately seeks to injure another person. Aikido (and any martial art for that matter) training can be dangerous. Taking personal responsibility to be aware of the dangers and training safely and appropriately is the only sure way. IMHO, any dojo that doesnt promote a safe and effective training environment where aikidoka at all levels can train with each other to promote, foster, allow and nurture learning and development isnt worth staying with and doesnt live up to the principles laid down by O'Sensei.

[quote]Originally posted by MaylandL
[quote]I bet you will come to love the black hole feeling. It's the feeling of a technique done very right. No force, no muscle, just "how the heck did I get here on the mat?".

Hello Greg I can certainly vouch for that kinda feeling having been launched into near geosync orbit by some very capable godan and sandan aikidoka. Its very satisfying to know what it feels like when the technique is done correctly and with power and also knowing that the ukemi was appropriate. The main thing was that they were skilled enought to guide the uke into the correct position to allow the proper ukemi to be done so that the technique can be done powerfully but safely. That ofcourse assumes that uke is skilled enought to receive properly It gives me a very tangible benchmark to aspire to when I do my techniques. Yes having the world dropped out from under me and being sucked into a black hole is very appropo...and a real buzz when you ukemi out of it. Mind you I have been in situations where I have been lax and complacent in my ukemi with me ending up looking like tatami generously layered with strawberry jam and vegemite . Much to the disgust of my and much heavy sighing from my sensei. At least I know what Wile e Coyote feels like sometimes

Hi Mayland:

My instructor's aikido is mostly a "straight down" kind of thing. Gravity and momentum combine. With nothing supporting me (I'm way displaced from my center), it's time to "become one with the mat" as we say here. Very "black hole" in a literal way...a black hole being a gravity well.

There are some techniques that we do that are very powerful and, as you say, are only possible because of the combination of nage guiding uke some and uke's ukemi skills.

OTOH, we have a great many techniques that put uke in an extremely awkward position from which graceful ukemi is just about impossible. E.g., I'm nursing sore knees and a very, very bruised wrist from Monday night's class. We did a lot of our version of "the scarf" irimi/kokyu nage. It's different from what you normally see and is terribly awkward for uke.

So, Yah, I can really realate to your "strawberry jam" metaphor right now.

Best Regards,

Thank you for you insight Greg

I think the dojo that I train at has a very similar iriminage technique. Its a very omote form of technique that projects ki very powerfully forward while evading the attack. The result is that you have to almost somersault to receive the technique. Sensei has done that one to me to demonstrate the power of iriminage. I've nursed a few bruises from that one more often than not.

We also do an omote form of shihonage that projects ki forward and incoporates forward movement when the final cut is performed. This means that Uke must project his/her ki in the same direction of the throw in order to ukemi and somersault to avoid serious shoulder, elbow and wrist injury. Done with power its a very difficult ukemi to do gracefully and Uke can travel about 20ft in the air before landing on the mat.

So Greg, I totally agree with you that there are techniques that make it very difficult for uke to ukemi regardless of how much guiding is done.

At the dojo that I train at, Sensei is very keen to emphasise ukemi training as part of the overall aikido training. We have had sessions which have concentrated on ukemi training.

You are quite correct to state that ukemi is more than breakfalling. Its also about the sensitivity of Uke to Nage/Tori. In all its really sensitivity training and the ability to maintain contact to sense posture, balance and direction.

I think I need to add that this form of "hard" and "intense" training is only done between experienced aikidoka who are familiar and confident about each others' abilities and skills. Just wanted to make the point that intense training can be done relatively safely if done responsibly. After all, we all want to keep training and have fun training.

Happy training

I don't think Aikido will pose any problem for you.

Depending on the style of karate you practiced, you will have to resist punching and kicking, accept manipulations as defense when you open yourself/move your body, and don't drag your feet!

Aikido was modified by O'Sensei, Morehei Ueshiba to leave out killing techniques, but allow the full motion of movements found in Jujitsu, judo, and sword arts without causing undue injury. The really neat thing is ... all the techniques found in our softened style are completly safe.

Sometimes I think that there are more injuries in public schools and at home than ever happen in all the martial art classes in the world?

When I switched to Aikido, I had a lot of trouble learning to move my entire body or one side of my body in unison, but with time it happens. Then it really starts to become fun!

Listen to warnings about dragging feet and little hints, most sensei's only say advice twice, then it is up to you to learn?

But, all in all ... sooner or later ... everything you learned in karate will find it's way into Aikido practice, don't be surprise to find old techniques come back like an old friend?

Have fun!
(Aikido allows laughing/smiling too!)

Originally posted by Bruce Baker all the techniques found in our softened style are completly safe.

Oh, yes. Completely safe.

Next time you're in the supermarket line and you see an old lady tottering by, please do go and koshinage her onto the ground. Or iriminage. I'm sure she'll find the experience quite fun as it's "completely safe."

Originally posted by Bruce Baker I don't think Aikido will pose any problem for you. Depending on the style of karate you practiced, you will have to resist punching and kicking, accept manipulations as defense when you open yourself/move your body, and don't drag your feet! Listen to warnings about dragging feet and little hints, most sensei's only say advice twice, then it is up to you to learn? But, all in all ... sooner or later ... everything you learned in karate will find it's way into Aikido practice, don't be surprise to find old techniques come back like an old friend? Have fun! (Aikido allows laughing/smiling too!)

Does aikido have no punches or kicks at all? It will be hard to resist doing that! I practised karate regularily for 3 years even though I was in the dojo for less than 1 and I still practise some of the stuff. I've forgotten most of my kata I only remember my first one. Practised that one a million times I should think. Does aikido have kata? Just curious by the way, I want to do aikido regardless. I've been intrigued by aikido since I was first exposed to the art. I've found it rather funny in a way, that people seem to question the effectiveness of aikido for self defense (this was referred to on a few posts I've read here.) I may come from a karate background but I always thought aikido would be great. From what I've seen of it (little though it's been), it seemed to me that it would be very effective. So it certainly surprised me to hear that others question it. Thanks for all the replies and info everyone, much appreciated.

Originally posted by Kat.C Does aikido have no punches or kicks at all? It will be hard to resist doing that!

It does have them although they might be utilized differently (it really depends on the dojo though). Strikes are generally used as more of a positional tool to break balance or get your attacker to respond in a certain way. Kicks are a whole different can of worms and quite a lot goes unanswered in that realm although I think a fair amount of people would be fine with them as a way to loosen up your attacker. You will certainly get to punch in your role as an attacker.

I've found it rather funny in a way, that people seem to question the effectiveness of aikido for self defense (this was referred to on a few posts I've read here.)

I do that sometimes. Sometimes just to liven things up and sometimes because I see things to question in the training methods I've been exposed to. There are dojos which have virtually no self-defense value and there are others which are quite strong in this area and as such your mileage will vary.

Note: I do see self-defense and martial effectiveness as somewhat different topics.

Training your patience is part of Aikido

Originally posted by Andy Oh, yes. Completely safe. Next time you're in the supermarket line and you see an old lady tottering by, please do go and koshinage her onto the ground. Or iriminage. I'm sure she'll find the experience quite fun as it's "completely safe."

That sounds like fun !

What, no picture???

Besides, you never know, I might be that tottering old lady. take the breakfall laughing, and then pull you over into the canned soup display

Originally posted by ca Besides, you never know, I might be that tottering old lady. take the breakfall laughing, and then pull you over into the canned soup display

Now that really does sound like fun!

Sean
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