Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > External Aikido Blog Posts

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-05-2009, 01:11 PM   #1
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,639
Offline
Teaching Methodology

I think that Aikido should be taught completely differently from the way it is generally taught. The vast majority of the Aikido that I see out there suffers from two major problems:

a) People mistake harmonious movement for "aiki"

b) Technique is generally physical relying solely on muscle strength and good body mechanics

This was pretty much the state of my own Aikido for 25 years, despite the efforts of some of the best Aikido teachers in the world. It was the Aiki Expos which put my training on a different path altogether. It was there that I noticed that much of the best "aiki" was being done by teachers who weren't doing Aikido. When I went to the classes offered by these teachers, I found that they had systematic, principle based, body centered explanations for what they were doing. Not only could they do amazing technique, they could teach others to do so.

I came away with a new perspective about how to teach what we do. First of all, I think we have people trying to do technique too soon. I think that it makes far more sense to focus on getting a solid understanding of the principles of aiki both mental and physical using various simple exercises rather than attempt waza without any ability to do it with proper body mechanics and mental state.

Aikido training is essentially the reprogramming of the body and mind until the principles of aiki become ones default setting. It is far, far easier to do this from the start of someones training rather than after they have done years of practice and thousands of repetitions wrong. Undoing something wrong is much harder than teaching it right in the first place.

So what is it that needs to be taught that generally isn't? It's how one receives the energy of an attack into the body and how to give energy back to the partner without collision. There are mental or psychic elements to this process and there are very specific physical elements.

It's not that anyone is going to master all this immediately, regardless of how excellent the instruction. But a certain level of understanding should be present before any attempt to have speed or power into the training is made. Of course this is the exact opposite of the way I was trained. We grabbed each other as hard as we could, executed our strikes as forcefully as possible, stopped each others technique, etc. From the perspective of my current understanding virtually everything we were doing was wrong. We trained that way for decades, got very strong physically, developed a "go to the center" attitude and we had no idea what our teacher, Saotome Sensei was doing.

It's not that physical strength isn't important, it just needs to be the proper kind of strength. A strong, fearless spirit is essential to do our art. But it cannot be the spirit of fighting... it must be the spirit of "fudo shin" or immovable mind. Every element of training should be directed at getting the student to relax. Relax the body and relax the mind, these are the most important elements in "aiki". Most of the way folks train tends to make them "ramp up" emotionally as they train faster and harder. One of the things I most appreciate about Endo Sensei is that he insists that the uke and the nage are doing the same thing. He demands a continuous connection between the partners. He won't let people train wrong. He doesn't allow them to fall back on empty physicality, he won't allow the ukes to plant or shut down their partners. Over time, their bodies start to understand that it is relaxation that makes them safe, not contention.

In order to start developing the intuition that is the hallmark of really high level technique, it is necessary to quiet the mind. When the mind is excited or "noisy" you are feeling yourself, not the partner. As you quiet yourself down, you start to vibrate sympathetically with your partner. You begin to "feel" the change iin his intention that precedes a physical attack.

All of this is what "aiki" is about. There has been discussion on the forums that Aikido translated as "The Way of Harmony" is perhaps not the best translation. While I think that description is a good characterization of what the art is intended to be, it is a bad translation in terms of actually describing what the practitioner does. "joining" is a far better term for describing what we are trying to do in Aikido. We join psychically, we join physically. We establish "ittai-ka: or "single body" in which there is no separation between the two partners. We remove the mind of contention so that there is no conflict of intentions between the partners.

The training we do should focus almost exclusively on how to do these things until the student begins to have them imprinted in his mind and body. Then it makes sense to focus on technique because only then can each technique be learned using a correct foundation of "aiki" principle. I think it may take quite a bit longer for students to feel as if they can actually do their Aikido martially, under some pressure, freely applying various techniques, but when they do start to work on this, their waza will "work" and it won't need to be undone in order to get to the next level (there is always a next level).http://www.aikiweb.com//blogger.goog...t.blogspot.com


More...
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2009, 07:05 PM   #2
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,499
United_States
Offline
Re: Teaching Methodology

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I think that Aikido should be taught completely differently from the way it is generally taught. The vast majority of the Aikido that I see out there suffers from two major problems:

a) People mistake harmonious movement for "aiki"

b) Technique is generally physical relying solely on muscle strength and good body mechanics

... So what is it that needs to be taught that generally isn't? It's how one receives the energy of an attack into the body and how to give energy back to the partner without collision. There are mental or psychic elements to this process and there are very specific physical elements.

... In order to start developing the intuition that is the hallmark of really high level technique, it is necessary to quiet the mind. When the mind is excited or "noisy" you are feeling yourself, not the partner. As you quiet yourself down, you start to vibrate sympathetically with your partner. You begin to "feel" the change iin his intention that precedes a physical attack.

All of this is what "aiki" is about.
Resonance. In every respect -- actually, and not metaphorically... knowing when one has reached and connected to his wrist, to his elbow, to his shoulder and on into the spine and hips is not "like" sonar -- it IS sonar.

Receiving echoes. Real vibrations. Furitama. tekubi furi -- "Spirit of Bees." Ude-furi, Funetori -- the "Demon Snake." All of them, forms of oscillation. Too much self-noise drowns the return signal from these.

Tactile triggered reflex complexes are faster (by about two orders of magnitude) than visually triggered reflexes. That means those systems update changes in perceptive thresholds that much faster, too. Aiki does not initially trigger them -- so much as modulate and tune the perceptive components -- and THEN trigger them, with overt action formed in the same way as the perception is achieved.

Other inputs then come to be perceived with the same cognitive system -- once the mind is attuned to it through the structural resonance of one's own body in connection with another. ANY thing that experiences an oscillation (displacement around a center value) (which is literally everything, whether one is consciously aware of it or not) can be perceived and acted upon with the same sensibility.

Thank you.

Excellent comment.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2009, 07:30 PM   #3
Karo
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 62
United_States
Offline
Re: Teaching Methodology

Quote:
Tactile triggered reflex complexes are faster (by about two orders of magnitude) than visually triggered reflexes.
Fascinating, and makes sense in terms of how much time is necessary to process and interpret visual information. Can you provide references to any research on this? I'm always interested in scientific explanations of things.

Karo
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 08:00 AM   #4
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,499
United_States
Offline
Re: Teaching Methodology

Quote:
Karolina Owczarzak wrote: View Post
Fascinating, and makes sense in terms of how much time is necessary to process and interpret visual information. Can you provide references to any research on this? I'm always interested in scientific explanations of things.

Karo
Not to steal the topic which is "methodology" -- but I have found ways to apply this kind of information helpfully, and less technically. But the tedious detail is here:
[spoiler] Visual reaction times: http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/...time/stats.php average centers around 205 ms (with standard deviations roughly between 100-300 ms.

An average trained person person delivers a punch in about 300 ms. Danny Inosanto, Bruce Lee and boxer, Frank Bruno, were timed for their punches at just about 100 ms from a starting signal (likely audible, see the visual processing time info below), for a high end mark on voluntary reaction from accomplished martial artists. That is near the physical limit for two-way cerebellar-mediated action (nerve impulse from brain to limbs ~50-60 ms, one-way). These are polysynaptic reflexes -- involving more than one nerve path.

Spinal reflexes ( e.g -- the knee jerk (extensors) and "clasp-knife" (flexors) are monosynaptic (literally one nerve is involved) and are mediated by the Golgi organs and other kinesthetic signal systems sensitive to differential compression or tension, without the brain playing any real part (other than to inhibit their signals). These responses are on the order of 10-40 ms. http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/106/9/537 -- See figure 2. The interesting thing about these systems is that vibratory signals travel in the body at the speed of sound in water ~1500 fps, vice nerve transmission speed which is ~ 60 fps. They know what is happening in remote parts of the body and are acting in response before the higher nervous system even receives the signal.

For discriminated visual reaction (vice the linked "click test" benchmark study -- which is prompted (i.e. -- there is no "discrimination" processing required) the processing time, alone, is about 500-600 ms. http://homepages.nyu.edu/~bm1/Nature-Neu_2003.pdf Add to that visual perception threshold the decision/reaction time 600+300 and you are near a second, for an average trained person. Or to put that in more practical terms, Danny Inosanto punched that average trained person five or six times while he was still trying to figure it out -- and three more times for spice while trying to do something about it

Even in higher level control tasks, kinesthetic guidance has a distinct advantage, both in shorter latent response (150 v. 250 ms) and shorter time to accurately grade that response to the size of the input (160 v. 200 ms): http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/9/2/447

I suggest reading up on spinal reflexes and how they may be over-potentiated (e.g. -- the Jendrassik Maneuver). http://www.rettungsforum.com/php_fil...der/jendra.gif ) http://www.qwantz.com/shirt_jendrassik.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jendrassik_maneuver This is very suggestive of the mechanism for the whole-body perceptive/activation relation without much conscious mediation that seems endemic to proper aiki. The Jendrassik maneuver reflex (upper cross loaded, for those who use that as a reference) action actually provokes an involuntary stepping motion in the lower limbs, loaded and unloaded.
See -- http://www.springerlink.com/content/n44822007475w64q

Also, it seems that simple monotonic vibration can improve compromised balance systems in the elderly: http://www.sciencenetlinks.com/sci_update.cfm?DocID=195 It is reasonable to expect that the inverse using destructive resonance (see for effect, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTZ446tbzE ) can be used to compromise or disrupt an otherwise properly functioning balance system.

Resonance frequencies in the body are about 10 Hz -- oddly enough the frequency of furitama, (I have timed it). Vibrations of this type cause "negative viscosity" <<Plain language -- loosened structure>> in the limbs. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1249627

Vibration of this type can also cause involuntary spastic clenching -- as anyone who has raked leaves vigorously for about fifteen minutes can tell you because their hands won't clench. This seems to be a myofascial action (similar to that of smooth muscle in the viscera) responding the oscillatory stress and is mediated by certain hormones, including histamine (which also provoke inflammation at impact sites) and much more interestingly, oxytocin, the "love" hormone. Here: http://www.fasciaresearch.de/wcb2006.pdf

True budo, neh?
[/spoiler]
As far as the thread topic here is concerned -- I have really emphasized feeling vibration and oscillation in both partners' structures in practice in every movement, every strike, every contact. When they are correct, his arm moves as one's own arm -- which is to say without muscular flexion (since I point out that I can't flex his muscles for him).

I emphasize this -- that if you do not learn how to move your own structures through a primary action that is not dependent on voluntary motor nerves and muscles in the limbs -- you cannot learn to move your partner's limbs and structure in the same way. While you cannot connect his nerves to your nerves nor his muscles to your muscles and make those your own -- you can own his structure if properly connected by these other means.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 10:18 AM   #5
Karo
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 62
United_States
Offline
Re: Teaching Methodology

More interesting stuff! Thank you, Erick-san.

This makes me think of other instances of the relation between vibration, movement, and balance, e.g. in autistic rocking and stimming, as well as dyspraxia and facilitated communication (or just in general, facilitated movement).

Karo
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 12:35 PM   #6
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,499
United_States
Offline
Re: Teaching Methodology

Quote:
Karolina Owczarzak wrote: View Post
More interesting stuff! Thank you, Erick-san.

This makes me think of other instances of the relation between vibration, movement, and balance, e.g. in autistic rocking and stimming, as well as dyspraxia and facilitated communication (or just in general, facilitated movement).

Karo
And yet further thread drift -- ah well. ... Go with it, I say...

This story about a teenage girl with cerebral palsy who began aikido training was noted on Aikiweb a little while back. http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs...EALTHYLIVING01

My stepmother is a OT. The problem with CP kids is that their spasticity is only exacerbated by their neurological effort to move the more distal parts of their extremities, whereas the closer to the core, the less spasticity is experienced. It makes sense therefore that for a kid with CP, aikido training would reduce tend to distal spasticity in favor of more relaxed core-driven movement, and create a more functional operation of the limbs. If you think about it -- aiki likely developed (IMO) from observations about what was left to make the body operate in battle after the limbs were exhausted and almost completely limp hours into a fight. The core still works but is reduced to very basic stability functions -- and the limbs are barely answerable -- not unlike CP.

I also think that aiki relies more heavily on cerebellar "tuned" reflex processing for movement, which, in most undamaged brains relies much more motor-cortex driven (voluntary) processing, and which (the cortical-cerebellar connections) is where a lot of the breakdown in various forms of CP occurs. While it is only anecdotal, the proof that aikido helped this little girl's movement so dramatically tends to confirm the suspicion on the nature of the neuro-mechanical function of aiki.

And -- I always thought it took a little brain damage to fully appreciate Aiki

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 06:21 PM   #7
Karo
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 62
United_States
Offline
Re: Teaching Methodology

Apologies to Ledyard Sensei for hijacking the thread! *bows*

Quote:
And -- I always thought it took a little brain damage to fully appreciate Aiki
No joke. Or it takes at least some difficulty with movement planning/execution (that's why I mentioned dyspraxia). My difficulties are not particularly great, but the main reason I chose aikido over karate, and why I still prefer empty hand techniques to weapons, is that it's easier to move when someone's holding on to me. The opponent's body provides a three-dimensional physical framework within which my body can move. Without that framework, there's just vast empty space and an infinite array of possible trajectories that's just too overwhelming to navigate.

I think a similar effect can be seen in patients after a stroke, when they learn to move their hand again, start by polishing the inside of a pot, movement guided by the pot's edges.

Karo
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2009, 09:37 PM   #8
Dan Rubin
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Location: Denver, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 335
United_States
Offline
Re: Teaching Methodology

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
In order to start developing the intuition that is the hallmark of really high level technique, it is necessary to quiet the mind. When the mind is excited or "noisy" you are feeling yourself, not the partner. As you quiet yourself down, you start to vibrate sympathetically with your partner. You begin to "feel" the change iin his intention that precedes a physical attack.

All of this is what "aiki" is about....

The training we do should focus almost exclusively on how to do these things until the student begins to have them imprinted in his mind and body. Then it makes sense to focus on technique....
George

I think that the Ki Society trains the way you suggest, except that they present that training alongside training in technique, as opposed to doing so before training in technique.

Wouldn't your sort of training (that is, without techniques) be boring to a new student? Doesn't your sort of training require a new student to have great faith that what he/she will practice for the first few years will pay off in the long run?

Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2009, 07:32 AM   #9
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,639
Offline
Re: Teaching Methodology

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
Wouldn't your sort of training (that is, without techniques) be boring to a new student? Doesn't your sort of training require a new student to have great faith that what he/she will practice for the first few years will pay off in the long run?

Dan
Hi Dan,
I think it depends on the student... The young 20 something boys who want to kick ass are off doing MMA these days anyway. I don't see them in Aikido any more. The older more mature students we get actually like the training. They get a lot of wins, it isn't too stressful, and it's sophisticated which appeals to these very intelligent folks. The hard part is getting them to want to up the intensity as they get better. The safety required to train properly can become something they get attached to. Especially as most of my students these days are already in their thirties... We just aren't getting the youngsters who can train their brains out physically the way we did. So what I find is that I have a bunch of folks who are functioning at a very high technical level compared to what one might generally see around but they can't necessarily do their stuff at high intensity under great pressure. It's a hard balance to find.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2009, 09:38 AM   #10
oisin bourke
 
oisin bourke's Avatar
Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 313
Ireland
Offline
Re: Teaching Methodology

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,
I think it depends on the student... The young 20 something boys who want to kick ass are off doing MMA these days anyway. I don't see them in Aikido any more. The older more mature students we get actually like the training. They get a lot of wins, it isn't too stressful, and it's sophisticated which appeals to these very intelligent folks. The hard part is getting them to want to up the intensity as they get better. The safety required to train properly can become something they get attached to. Especially as most of my students these days are already in their thirties... We just aren't getting the youngsters who can train their brains out physically the way we did. So what I find is that I have a bunch of folks who are functioning at a very high technical level compared to what one might generally see around but they can't necessarily do their stuff at high intensity under great pressure. It's a hard balance to find.
There are exceptions of course (Horikawa and Sagawa started training quite young under the guidance of their fathers), but I believe a vast majority of early Aiki practicioners were well into their thirties and forties when they began training.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2009, 10:46 AM   #11
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 893
United_States
Offline
Re: Teaching Methodology

Quote:
When I went to the classes offered by these teachers, I found that they had systematic, principle based, body centered explanations for what they were doing. Not only could they do amazing technique, they could teach others to do so.
I place this point as a key omission in aikido instruction as I observe it today. I do not believe many aikido instructors have a systematic curriculum which is based on [any] foundation. We have a lot of "soft" instruction in aikido which allows students:
A. To replicate mechanical movement without critical feedback
B. To implement technique without focus or intent
C. To develop a repertoire of unrelated techniques to apply in a variety of situations

The good news is we don't offend anyone because everyone is doing, "their own aikido," and students keep paying rent. The bad news is we reap what we sow; we are talking about a generation of aikido students who neither possess the internal skills to expand their understanding of aikido technique, nor will their physical aikido hold up in contest with other martial artists. (And yes, I understand that not everyone wants to "test" themselves, but just because I don't drop an apple on my head it doesn't mean I can ignore the effects of gravity - good aikido is good aikido and will hold its own under test).

We have a challenge to produce solid, functional, intellectual aikido students. Arguably the current system is not accomplishing these goals en masse, perhaps it is on an individual basis.

I appreciate those instructors like Ledyard Sensei who seek to develop that curriculum and substantiate its development with foundation. Case in point: I recently attended a semiar with Ikeda Sensei and it was hands-down the best seminar I have seen him give (and I have attended many of his seminars). The key difference? Sensei's delivery explaining his movement and how that movement alters the relationship between uke and nage prior to executing technique.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 09:37 PM   #12
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,169
Offline
Re: Teaching Methodology

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
All of this is what "aiki" is about. There has been discussion on the forums that Aikido translated as "The Way of Harmony" is perhaps not the best translation. While I think that description is a good characterization of what the art is intended to be, it is a bad translation in terms of actually describing what the practitioner does. "joining" is a far better term for describing what we are trying to do in Aikido. We join psychically, we join physically. We establish "ittai-ka: or "single body" in which there is no separation between the two partners. We remove the mind of contention so that there is no conflict of intentions between the partners.
I think a better term is "work together". Tori and uke work together to practice Aikido. The mind and body work together to move in harmony. The the various muscles, tendons and skeletal systems work together to balance the body against gravity for harmonious movement.

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2009, 12:06 AM   #13
ddease2
Dojo: Central Florida Aikikai/Orlando, FL
Location: Orlando, Florida
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4
United_States
Offline
Re: Teaching Methodology

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
George

I think that the Ki Society trains the way you suggest, except that they present that training alongside training in technique, as opposed to doing so before training in technique.

Wouldn't your sort of training (that is, without techniques) be boring to a new student? Doesn't your sort of training require a new student to have great faith that what he/she will practice for the first few years will pay off in the long run?

Dan
Dan,

Having been following Endo sensei for the past few years, and doing my best to practice his way (do), I've found that his "ki" exercises are actually very fun for beginners. As long as you don't take them too seriously with regards to them "working" every time, they can be an interesting ice breaker for a new person coming into class. Once more, because they really do work, I have some very small students that can withstand a lot of force being applied on them. This is fun for them and it tends to really amaze the new folks. I'm not saying they can hold off any sort of physical attack, and certainly not indefinitely, but as George sensei says, these exercises teach new folks the idea that they should relax, stay calm, and feel the force being placed upon them....then respond appropriately. Of course, the "appropriate" response just happens to be the kihon waza we are working on that night.

Which brings me to my next point. What many of Endo sensei's exercises focus on is kihon waza. To me, I sometimes think he's trying to take the waza out of the exercise to "hide" it from us. Then he proves you can use your body effectively this way or that way. Once you get that feeling of confidence, he'll apply kihon technique to it and challenge you to apply the feeling you had before.

Of course, as Endo sensei has said directly, if your partner focuses all their intent on holding or resisting you, they are easily "disturbed" by distractions or other movements of your body. What you get from him, however, is the feeling that he's using absolutely NO muscle to work through your strength. And I'm not talking about him moving before you grab him. He'll let you grab and hold him firmly...just to make his point. Then, he somehow "attaches" himself to your balance and begins to unsettle you. It's a very strange feeling...and one that will keep you coming back for more. ; )

Dan
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Teaching Aikido to Children Workshop wmreed Seminars 2 09-06-2008 04:33 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 3 Peter Goldsbury Columns 16 05-28-2007 06:24 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 2 Peter Goldsbury Columns 3 04-19-2007 04:53 AM
Is aikido suitable for children. big old smiler Teaching 9 01-06-2005 05:00 PM
Teaching, & its impact on me justinm General 16 04-07-2004 07:04 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:07 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate