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Old 05-27-2009, 04:55 PM   #76
C. David Henderson
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
To David H.:

So in short, we're back in another situation of "we don't know either way for sure", aren't we? I.e., I'm not ready to emote and wish harmful things on people with whom I politically disagree.

Mike
I think we agree on both those points.

David
 
Old 05-27-2009, 05:09 PM   #77
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
The CIA does dispute his testimony, I believe. I think, however, they have more of a motive to lie than he does (and somebody here probably is lying).
Hmmmmm.... is that a "think" supported by facts or a "think" supported by personal belief? Personally, I have a hard time understanding the 'hate America' culture that sprang out of the late 60's into a trendy populist idea, but I certainly see the CIA as in a very strange position (not that all members of the CIA have a monolithic position).

If you look back over time, the major leaks from the CIA come during the time of Republican presidents by a wide margin. National espionage secrets, dirt on Repub politicians are an indication that the CIA is staffed by a goodly number of essentially Democrats. For the last two presidential terms, the leaks have largely been anti-Bush (think of Joseph and Valerie Plame as an example... in an impartial CIA a Valerie Plame would not exist). So OK, the Repub was replaced with a more desireable (to the CIA inside the Beltway) with a Democrat. One of the first thing he does is release Top Secret memos that put the CIA in a bad light. Then he obliquely puts CIA members in jeopardy by not directly saying they would be beyond prosecution. So suddenly the CIA is aghast because it has learned the meaning of "be careful what you live for". So they're now leaking memos and info to discredit Nancy Pelosi and the Dems. All of this is interesting to watch, but my main thought is "how did we wind up with a political party named the CIA that tries to impose itself regardless of the elected officials?". You see what I mean. We have a CIA that has become a power unto itself and it's troubling.

Oh, well. Back to the humorous side of watching a bunch of "spiritual" Aikido types viciously attacking (enter the name of choice).

Best.

Mike
 
Old 05-27-2009, 07:23 PM   #78
C. David Henderson
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

It is an "I think" based on a lawyer's instinct; no more, no less.

Not partisan.

You know the old saying -- A conservative is a liberal who just got mugged; a liberal is a conservative who just got indicted.

Me, I struggle to hold onto an ability not to reduce people to old sayings...

Regards,

cdh
 
Old 05-28-2009, 12:31 AM   #79
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Hi,

I'm a bit late ...

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
Then maybe the rest of the world shouldnt ask us for help anymore. How safe will they feel then.
It's just part of the propaganda of your conservative politicians and media to argue that "the rest of the world" asks the US for help.

The protest against the war in vietnam was very far reaching and had a deep influence on the development here in Europe.

In both - the first and the second Iraq war - there where services in nearly every church, where people prayed for the US not to go to war.

None of the governments that took part in the alliance continued in office.

You would be amazed if you could read European newspapers or if you could watch German TV. The reasons for going to war are not accepted over here at all. They are considered as lies.

And that - important to know - not only by some freaks or radicals but by a big majority including most of the conservatives.

Another point:

Torture, Guantanamo, secret jails of the CIA etc. shifted the US from being one of the good boys to being one of the bad guys in the eyes of the free world. It's called crimes against humanity.

We had trials with that accusation because some German citizens have been kidnapped and tortured by the CIA.

Third:

In seminars at university or at school and even in our media the parallels between the proganda of the Bush administration and the Propaganda of the Nazis are pointed out.

Are you aware of those points?

And are you aware how much support Obama got on his trips to Europe? Because the people here hope he can change the foreign affairs of the US.

So all in all it's the other way round:
The rest of the world asks the US not to go to war, not to torture, not to offend human rights. Not to be part of the problem but part of the solution.

Carsten
 
Old 05-28-2009, 07:06 AM   #80
aikishrine
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Yeah, Hitler felt very safe when he had all those Jews and Gays and Gypsies under lock and key, and even safer once he'd gassed them. He also got a lot of hard work out of them before that.

If we want to be the Torture Nation, maybe the rest of the world will feel safer if we decline to help them.

It's not an "either/or" proposition, you know.

You'll be better off when you admit what you have advocated and how seriously sick it is.

David
Then move!!!!!!!!
 
Old 05-28-2009, 07:08 AM   #81
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

I am curious as to why many western governments join the US in condemning the actions of others, but don't always take as much action as the US to follow through on those condemnations.

I am sure it has to do with self-interest, but why even support UN resolutions if they are an empty threat much of the time.
 
Old 05-28-2009, 07:26 AM   #82
aikishrine
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Or we could just admit that, like the war in Iraq, torturing prisoners was the Bush administration's choice and its preference. Need or no need, it's their charcter. To say otherwise, anyway, is definitely a waste.

David
If you think that torture is a new tactic for us you are greatly mistaken. We have used it for decades. And agian i say to move, sinve you hate us so much. Your hatred makes me sick.
 
Old 05-28-2009, 07:30 AM   #83
aikishrine
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Hi,

I'm a bit late ...

It's just part of the propaganda of your conservative politicians and media to argue that "the rest of the world" asks the US for help.

The protest against the war in vietnam was very far reaching and had a deep influence on the development here in Europe.

In both - the first and the second Iraq war - there where services in nearly every church, where people prayed for the US not to go to war.

None of the governments that took part in the alliance continued in office.

You would be amazed if you could read European newspapers or if you could watch German TV. The reasons for going to war are not accepted over here at all. They are considered as lies.

And that - important to know - not only by some freaks or radicals but by a big majority including most of the conservatives.

Another point:

Torture, Guantanamo, secret jails of the CIA etc. shifted the US from being one of the good boys to being one of the bad guys in the eyes of the free world. It's called crimes against humanity.

We had trials with that accusation because some German citizens have been kidnapped and tortured by the CIA.

Third:

In seminars at university or at school and even in our media the parallels between the proganda of the Bush administration and the Propaganda of the Nazis are pointed out.

Are you aware of those points?

And are you aware how much support Obama got on his trips to Europe? Because the people here hope he can change the foreign affairs of the US.

So all in all it's the other way round:
The rest of the world asks the US not to go to war, not to torture, not to offend human rights. Not to be part of the problem but part of the solution.

Carsten
I think when all is said and done you will find that Obama was a huge mistake. And go ask South Korea and Japan if they want us to help them out right now in regards to North korea.
 
Old 05-28-2009, 07:44 AM   #84
lbb
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

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Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
Then move!!!!!!!!
Ah yes, the ultimate answer to any political dissent in the United States. Well stated, Brian, that'll shut 'em up.
 
Old 05-28-2009, 08:51 AM   #85
C. David Henderson
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

I'm a bit amazed:
This is such a great Country that we've used torture for decades. Don't question this or you're at least unpatriotic if not worse.
This great Nation is founded on the ideal of personal freedom, but if you oppose through the exercise of your right to free speech the use of torture -- the ultimate negation of freedom -- you obviously hate the Country, and you should MOVE.

If I find these sentiments horrific (and I do), do I get to ask the person who genuinely believes and expresses them to MOVE, or should I learn to cope with my feelings in a different way?

Why is it I don't enjoy the privilege of arranging the world so I don't have to encounter unpleasant points of view (on an "Open Discussions" forum, no less)?

I invite all reasoned responses.
 
Old 05-28-2009, 12:08 PM   #86
David Orange
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
"Matthew Alexander, author of How to Break a Terrorist, used non-torture methods of interrogation in Iraq with much success. In fact, one cooperative jihadist told him, 'I thought you would torture me, and when you didn't, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That's why I decided to cooperate.'"
Great points, Don. This post and the one about Galileo.

http://original.antiwar.com/paul/200...s-accountable/[/quote]

You know, we did hold some people accountable for the tortures in Abu Grhaib. Charles Graner, a sergeant, acting on orders from above, was sentenced to ten years in prison. And Lynddie England was sentenced to three years.

So, by our own govenrment's definition, these acts were felonies. But why punish the lowliest of the low, who followed orders from Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Gonzalez?

Further, we hanged a number of Japanese as war criminals for waterboarding American troops. The death penalty for what Bush and Cheney feel was a good, moral thing to do.

That should seal the case for anyone but the far right-wingers just poo-poo it.

Sad state, indeed.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-28-2009, 12:17 PM   #87
David Orange
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
...So it's a gamble with the lives of a lot of people in L.A. to say "well maybe...", isn't it?
But it's still a gamble, even when you torture your victims. To eliminate the gamble, you have to eliminate anyone who could potentially do you harm. So we carpet bomb N Korea and Iran. And Pakistan. And Afghanistan. Yemen. Somalia.

Every day we fail to do that is to gamble with the lives of the people of LA, isn't it?

Kind of a dumb argument.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Then again, I doubt that the lives of people in L.A. mean much, in terms of today's world where lives are not as important as politics (yes, I know everyone gives lip-service, but on these political discussions, most of that "care" is bunkum, IMO).
But you know what? In reading all your posts, I get the general impression that you would pretty much just as soon flush all the sorry people in LA as look at them. So please, don't hold them up as your standard.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So in short, we're back in another situation of "we don't know either way for sure", aren't we?
If you think that, then it's utterly foolish not to go ahead and just preemptively eliminate all those little backward raghead countries that could possibly threaten us. It's all downrange. It's just a matter of how far you want to go with it. Bush Sr. stopped short of Baghdad but fools rush in where angels fear to go. Angels don't fear torture because they're sissies.They fear it because they know it is destructive to their own souls.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I.e., I'm not ready to emote and wish harmful things on people with whom I politically disagree.
That statement really rings hollow, Mike. As for calling for waterboarding Cheney, that's just wishing that he gets what he gives. You may wish the full weight of my own karma to come upon me and the full weight of my karma is all I expect. However, don't taint my nation with Dick Cheney's foul karma or Bush's either. We have more than enough sewage in the world, already.

May we all get our own karma as due.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-28-2009, 12:20 PM   #88
David Orange
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote: View Post
So a corrupt and unabashedly mendacious cabal of unscrupulous oilmen and women launch an aggressive war (crime against peace) (killing roughly 1.3 million) against a county which hadn't attacked us, but had been recommended by the Project for a New American Century and planned for by our military (another crime against peace).
Don, have you seen the movie "W."?

That's really worth watching. Stone did a pretty good job with it even if a lot of people think he was too soft on Bush.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-28-2009, 12:27 PM   #89
David Orange
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I have a hard time understanding the 'hate America' culture that sprang out of the late 60's into a trendy populist idea..."how did we wind up with a political party named the CIA that tries to impose itself regardless of the elected officials?". You see what I mean. We have a CIA that has become a power unto itself and it's troubling.
Gee, Mike, that's the main point of most of the people you love to call "America haters." Very few of us (whom you describe as such) do NOT hate America but hate the types who have brought shame and international disgrace to America. And those are mainly the CIA and republicans. Our fixing of the election of Diem in South Vietnam, bombing civilians ("The Quiet American"), murders of priests and nuns in South and Central America, all came from the CIA.

They bother you?

You're sounding like an America hater.

We don't hate America. We hate when fools use American authority and resources to damage America's reputation around the world.

David

Oh, well. Back to the humorous side of watching a bunch of "spiritual" Aikido types viciously attacking (enter the name of choice).

Best.

Mike[/quote]

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-28-2009, 12:30 PM   #90
David Orange
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
Then move!!!!!!!!
The statement of a man with no vision or sense of options.

No thanks, Brian. I'm an American.

And so can you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-28-2009, 12:32 PM   #91
David Orange
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
Then move!!!!!!!!
Too funny, Brian. But it's not I who needs to move.

You hate our current President and, apparently, the vast majority of Americans who rejected your backward thinking, so I think the thing is for YOU to move, isn't it?

I'm thinking you would fit well in...oh....maybe Khazakstan. Russia. Maybe Serbia.

Have fun. We Americans will remember you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-28-2009, 12:52 PM   #92
David Orange
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I am curious as to why many western governments join the US in condemning the actions of others, but don't always take as much action as the US to follow through on those condemnations.
Maybe, in the case of GW Bush, the rest of the world perceived that we were taking too much action and not enough consideration, with far too little understanding of the culture's we're attacking.

I had a gay couple as neighbors for awhile. Two middle-age chubby guys with their dogs.

Say I took a notion that one of those guys had looked at my child. Say I decided he had unhealthy interest in my child.

Likely, you would agree that the guy shouldn't be allowed around my child. But would you join me if I wanted to put on a ski mask and go visit him with a baseball bat? What if I told you I just wanted you to go over there with me, in our ski masks, and just frighten him? But then when we got there, I actually jumped on him and started beating him?

That is the way the world has perceived the Bush administration. Bush was a sociopathic idiot who was never able to "think" any problem through very far without getting hopelessly confused. He could understand slogans (in a way) and he could understand principles (sort of, in a very limited way, if they were very simple principles, like "you hit me, I'll hit you twice as hard" or something like "fool me twice....you....you..." [okay, even simple things, he didn't always really understand]).

But Bush had his agenda to invade Baghdad in place the day he went into the White House and the world could see that no matter what else, he was intent on killing Saddam Hussein. And I think there was also the sense about him that he had no moral limits. I certainly didn't support how much action he took and if literally millions of people in his own country felt that way about him, it's no wonder that the rest of the world would not want to go as far as he was willing to go.

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I am sure it has to do with self-interest, but why even support UN resolutions if they are an empty threat much of the time.
And when UN resolutions are so often stacked in favor of terrorist nations or groups, as well. I think there are hundreds of UN sanctions against Israel but very, very few against the groups that attack them within their own borders.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-28-2009, 12:54 PM   #93
David Orange
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
If you think that torture is a new tactic for us you are greatly mistaken. We have used it for decades. And agian i say to move, sinve you hate us so much. Your hatred makes me sick.
Who is this "us" of whom you speak? Right-wing nuts? Yeah. KKKers? Yeah. Neo-nazis? Yeah.

Which are you?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-28-2009, 12:56 PM   #94
David Orange
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Quote:
Brian Northrup wrote: View Post
I think when all is said and done you will find that Obama was a huge mistake.
Coming from a guy who hasn't noticed what a disaster Bush has been for the last eight years, I'm afraid your comment doesn't inspire much confidence, Brian.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-28-2009, 01:20 PM   #95
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

Whoa...David...lighten up!

B,
R
Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Who is this "us" of whom you speak? Right-wing nuts? Yeah. KKKers? Yeah. Neo-nazis? Yeah.

Which are you?

David

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
 
Old 05-28-2009, 02:07 PM   #96
David Orange
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Whoa...David...lighten up!

B,
R
Thanks, Ron. I've been trying.

But my last comment may need some explaining:

Brian Northrup wrote:
If you think that torture is a new tactic for us you are greatly mistaken. We have used it for decades. And agian i say to move, sinve you hate us so much. Your hatred makes me sick.

My reply meant that, yes, I do hate (severe) right-wingers. I do hate KKKers and I do hate neo-nazis.

Since Brian said "you hate us so much, I'm thinking he might belong to one of those groups. After all, I love America, so....

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-28-2009, 02:48 PM   #97
akiy
 
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Too much name-calling and other personal attacks in this thread.

Thread closed.

-- Jun

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