Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Spiritual

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-25-2009, 10:17 PM   #1
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Practical Peace

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
The time O'Sensei developed his philosophy was an unique time in Japanese history and that really only applied to Japan, and not universally to the rest of the world, or in our times, where you deal with an attacker on drugs. I think , with all due respect to O'Sensei, it was pretty nieve of O'Sensei to think it could be and he could make a change- that is understandable considering Japan being a closed nation for so long, and what he went through in his life.

...there are people which can't be reached with peace. I add these people are not going to respond to peace either- sadly.
Hey Philip,
If I'm reading you right, I think I disagree. What is it that makes his philosophy inapplicable today? I think O Sensei's general philosophy of accordance with the universe and interpersonal harmony applies very widely across cultures. Certainly the specific ways he expressed some of this are culturally rooted, but the philosophy itself (as I think I understand it, at any rate) seems pretty wide open. I don't see it as being very different from other figures of different times and locations.
Also, I think I disagree that there are people who cannot be reached with peaceful actions. I think it's all too easy to forsake troubled people. I guess my fear is that through the convenience of practicality, good ideals might not be given the chance they need to find actualization.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 05-25-2009 at 10:19 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 03:52 AM   #2
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,218
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Onegaishimasu. In my early studies of the way of the Samurai and particularly zen buddhism, I read that sometimes the most compassionate act can be to cut your opponent's head off without a single word. It is the way many of us act today with insects; not cutting off their heads, but annihilating them altogether. So is peace not practical? Tough subject.

In gassho

Mark

- Right combination works wonders -
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 05:31 AM   #3
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,999
Japan
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
So is peace not practical?
Hello Mark,

I think you need to expand the question--or the background.

The references to cutting off heads in silence do not supply sufficient background. For example, samurai who committed seppuku specifically had someone to do this, to spare them the pain of opening their hara to the world in such a direct fashion. Though such a practice is practical, in some sense, in what respects was it 'peaceful'?

Best wishes,

PAG

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 05-26-2009 at 05:33 AM.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 07:43 AM   #4
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

As to whether there are some people who "can't be reached" except by acting -- as they are perceived as acting -- in a brutal and violent way, consider this: A number of professional interrogators have testified before Congress that methods based on creating a personal relationship actually worked, and even were the methods that produced the valuable intelligence from victims who were also waterboarded. Moreover, according to one US interrogator with extensive field experience in Iraq, the majority of foreign fighters he questioned reported US abuses of Islamic captives was one of the main reasons they joined up. Keep in mind these were among those who carried out suicide bombings targeting US (and likely British, etc.) military.

To me, rei is relevant here.

cdh
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 08:20 AM   #5
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Good point about the relative perception of peace. Some folks simply feel more peaceful in the middle of a storm than in the middle of the dead quiet...and I can certainly understand the idea of peace found in a quick death. Suicide would be another form of this example, though one which is usually the result of tumult, so to my mind really isn't the product of peace. It is a tough question for several reasons I guess, not the least of which is exemplified by the fact that mankind has had thousands of years to find some lasting form of it, yet I would argue we're more or less where we probably began...I would say in all that time only our tools have really changed, and even that isn't as big a change as we tend to like to believe.
At any rate, I would argue that peace is actually quite practical...the most practical even.
I'll try to write something more when I have more time: hi ho, hi ho, it's off to slave away I go.
Take care, all,
Matthew

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 08:51 AM   #6
Joe McParland
 
Joe McParland's Avatar
Dojo: Sword Mountain Aikido & Zen
Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 309
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote: View Post
Onegaishimasu. In my early studies of the way of the Samurai and particularly zen buddhism, I read that sometimes the most compassionate act can be to cut your opponent's head off without a single word. It is the way many of us act today with insects; not cutting off their heads, but annihilating them altogether. So is peace not practical? Tough subject.
From one zen perspective, our heads are cut off simply in considering the question.

The only peace I can ultimately ensure is my own---and I do not mean this in a physical sense, since I cannot ultimately ensure that at all. However, if I am a lion, I can be at peace with stalking and hopefully killing a gazelle; and, if I am a gazelle, I can be at peace grazing in the field and hopefully evading a lion.

When I am at peace, the world is at peace.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 12:05 PM   #7
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
From one zen perspective, our heads are cut off simply in considering the question.

The only peace I can ultimately ensure is my own---and I do not mean this in a physical sense, since I cannot ultimately ensure that at all. However, if I am a lion, I can be at peace with stalking and hopefully killing a gazelle; and, if I am a gazelle, I can be at peace grazing in the field and hopefully evading a lion.

When I am at peace, the world is at peace.
This reminds me of the parable told by Socrates in which some forms of pleasure are likened to a water bladder with a hole in it. Happiness (a reasonable measure of peace in my book) equates to a full bag of water, but one must continualy work at replacing the pouring water. Hunger might be a fitting example. As I recall this was to later be a reason for it not being called pleasure, or at least, a weaker form of it...I'll have to reread that. However, I can fully appreciate the peace that comes from stalking/focusing intently upon a target.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 05-26-2009 at 12:07 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 03:53 PM   #8
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,715
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

IMHO, just because peace doesn't work with everyone all the time, doesn't mean it doesn't work with most of the people most of the time, making it actually more practical than violence.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 05:19 PM   #9
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 446
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

When you resort to violence, regardless of your rationale, you are no longer the hero of the story. Period.

People of means solve problems with leadership and communication, not force.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 07:11 PM   #10
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,169
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
People of means solve problems with leadership and communication, not force.
If you substitute the definition of 'means' from wikipedia into your sentence, it then reads,

"People with something of instrumental value in order to achieve an end solve problems with leadership and communication, not force."

The same could be said for, " people with something of instrumental value in order to achieve and end solve problems with violence.

What do you mean by " of means"?

David
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 11:07 PM   #11
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
When you resort to violence, regardless of your rationale, you are no longer the hero of the story. Period.
My view is less cut and dry. My wife and I just returned from a "Bringing Baby Home" class where we're learning about how to care for our baby and she asked me just a few minutes ago what I would do if we were attacked. I would resort to violence to stop violence against her or my baby...and by violence I mean if I had to (the beauty of the hypothetical) I would be willing maim someone who was attempting to harm my pregnant wife...and it would be frighteningly easy. I would have no remorse for my actions unless I went beyond the necessity of protecting my family.
...This from a guy who feels guilty whenever he kills a mosquito, let alone hurts someone.
Take care.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 06:41 AM   #12
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
When you resort to violence, regardless of your rationale, you are no longer the hero of the story. Period.

People of means solve problems with leadership and communication, not force.
Since we just had a special day reserved for remembering all those who died for us, I guess those 3400 + Congressional Medal of Honor winners weren't heroes at all.

http://www.history.army.mil/moh.html

One entry. I'm sure PFC Valdez could have opened communications with the Germans and negotiated a safe retreat without violence.

Quote:
*VALDEZ, JOSE F.

Rank and organization: Private First Class, U.S. Army, Company B, 7th Infantry, 3d Infantry Division. Place and date: Near Rosenkrantz, France, 25 January 1945. Entered service at: Pleasant Grove, Utah. Birth: Governador, N. Mex. G. O. No.: 16, 8 February 1946. Citation: He was on outpost duty with 5 others when the enemy counterattacked with overwhelming strength. From his position near some woods 500 yards beyond the American lines he observed a hostile tank about 75 yards away, and raked it with automatic rifle fire until it withdrew. Soon afterward he saw 3 Germans stealthily approaching through the woods. Scorning cover as the enemy soldiers opened up with heavy automatic weapons fire from a range of 30 yards, he engaged in a fire fight with the attackers until he had killed all 3. The enemy quickly launched an attack with 2 full companies of infantrymen, blasting the patrol with murderous concentrations of automatic and rifle fire and beginning an encircling movement which forced the patrol leader to order a withdrawal. Despite the terrible odds, Pfc. Valdez immediately volunteered to cover the maneuver, and as the patrol 1 by 1 plunged through a hail of bullets toward the American lines, he fired burst after burst into the swarming enemy. Three of his companions were wounded in their dash for safety and he was struck by a bullet that entered his stomach and, passing through his body, emerged from his back. Overcoming agonizing pain, he regained control of himself and resumed his firing position, delivering a protective screen of bullets until all others of the patrol were safe. By field telephone he called for artillery and mortar fire on the Germans and corrected the range until he had shells falling within 50 yards of his position. For 15 minutes he refused to be dislodged by more than 200 of the enemy; then, seeing that the barrage had broken the counter attack, he dragged himself back to his own lines. He died later as a result of his wounds. Through his valiant, intrepid stand and at the cost of his own life, Pfc. Valdez made it possible for his comrades to escape, and was directly responsible for repulsing an attack by vastly superior enemy forces.
Even more to the point, I guess all those women who fight back against being raped aren't heroes at all, either, "regardless of your rationale". I'm sure that those women could have talked their way out of that bad situation.

Or all the times that a man or a woman has saved family or friends from bear/wolf/mountain lion attacks by using violence.

There has been and always will be "bad situations". War, rape, civil unrest, psychotic maniacs, etc, etc, etc. And yes, I'm sure that some of the time, communication will be a better option. But, also, some of the time, violence will be the only option.

I'm not really sure what point you were trying to make, but your post came across as being too all inclusive.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 10:15 AM   #13
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 446
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Mark I see your point, but I still disagree. Valdez is a hero, but not for his application of violence. Saving your buddies makes you a hero, killing lots of the bad guys does not. Surviving a rape makes you a hero, physically harming your attacker does not. Violence undoes what you have accomplished in the world.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 10:38 AM   #14
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Mark I see your point, but I still disagree. Valdez is a hero, but not for his application of violence. Saving your buddies makes you a hero, killing lots of the bad guys does not. Surviving a rape makes you a hero, physically harming your attacker does not. Violence undoes what you have accomplished in the world.
No problem with our disagreements here. You have your beliefs/opinions and I have mine. Seems fair enough.

I'm sure we could probably debate the point some, but I think I'll leave it that we disagree.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 10:50 AM   #15
lifeafter2am
Dojo: Shindai Aikikai
Location: Orlando
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 153
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Mark I see your point, but I still disagree. Valdez is a hero, but not for his application of violence. Saving your buddies makes you a hero, killing lots of the bad guys does not. Surviving a rape makes you a hero, physically harming your attacker does not. Violence undoes what you have accomplished in the world.
Just to see if I understand what you are saying.

A person survives a rape, but by doing so does in fact physically harm the attacker in the process. Does this not make them a hero anymore? Or are you saying that the process of surviving a rape makes them a hero, but the process of harming the person in itself does not. So the person is a hero because of the survival, but not because of the physical damage. Or are you saying that due to the physical damage the person is no longer a hero?

I think I was clear in that. lol.

"The mind is everything. What you think you become." - Siddhattha Gotama Buddha
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 11:43 AM   #16
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 892
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

If I define peace by what it is not, then peace is simply the absence of war. Sometimes we tie ethics into peace and war; peace is a good thing and war is a bad thing. Who is right and who is wrong is a point of view, not a point of fact. Whenever I read posts that begin with absolute conditions, I get nervous...

Practicality is a term used to describe a decision made by evaluating the opportunity cost of the consequences of the decision. Practical peace would then be a decision which weighs the consequences of creating a confrontation against the consequences of nonconfrontation.

I would argue that heros are people who act under circumstances in which others would be incapable of responding. Leaders are people who gather information before making a decision to ascertain the best possible decision before acting. Neither are committed to inaction and both are committed to making the most practical decision to act.

Whether an individual makes the right [or wrong] decision is an ethical debate, not a factual one. When we confuse an ethical statement like, "war is wrong...[in my religion],[in my belief],[in my opinion]," as a fact we lose objectivity needed to make difficult decisions.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 12:19 PM   #17
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Nice post Jon, I'm going to think about that some more...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2009, 09:44 AM   #18
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,715
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
When you resort to violence, regardless of your rationale, you are no longer the hero of the story. Period.
Osu,
Agreed.
If you resort to violence, you are not longer the hero.
And none who have resorted to it would disagree. They wouldn't think of themselves as heros either.
The people they saved and protected might though, (but probably not).
Rei, Domo.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2009, 10:24 AM   #19
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Osu,
Agreed.
If you resort to violence, you are not longer the hero.
And none who have resorted to it would disagree. They wouldn't think of themselves as heros either.
The people they saved and protected might though, (but probably not).
Rei, Domo.
Maybe hero is a difficult term...
And I really don't want to come across as supporting violence (particularly when my purpose for this thread was discussing how peace is more practical in the long-term), but I would argue that a person forced to act with violence isn't necessarily un-heroic.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2009, 11:16 AM   #20
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 892
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Osu,
Agreed.
If you resort to violence, you are not longer the hero.
And none who have resorted to it would disagree. They wouldn't think of themselves as heros either.
The people they saved and protected might though, (but probably not).
Rei, Domo.
Quote:
If you resort to violence, you are not longer the hero.
This is a perfect quote which combines a fact with an opinion (presented as a fact). In this syllogy the premise is that if one commits violent act, then they are not a hero. Without a clarification of "violence," or any of the plethora of exceptions that would arise from testing this syllogy, it is not even a statement to which one can respond.

1. At the risk of sounding corny, I appreciate those men and women everyday protect me, my family, and my country. I appreciate my fire fighters, police men, and paramedics who keep me safe. I call all of these people heros because they make difficult decisions everyday that I could not make. I am thankful the weight of those decisions rests upon their shoulders and not mine. I am glad there are people who can (and do) shoulder these burdens of which many of us are ignorant.
2. Hero is not a self-awarded title. I once heard a saying, "The gravity of difficult decisions should be enough to keep us grounded in reality." Heroes carry with them the burden of their decisions. Leaders carry with them the burden of their decisions. these people do not need from us some tag that says what they did is good or bad; they know.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2009, 08:41 PM   #21
Suru
Location: Miami, FL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 453
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

"Hero" is a really tricky word, and know that while I write the following, I am still somewhat tricked by it.

A hero per se does not set out to be a hero. He/She behaves genuinely in the self-sacrificial cause of world peace, or in a microcosm of which the smaller deed perpetuates. As far as the Medal of Honor goes, there is a reason why the offspring of he/she who receives it have an automatic nomination (though not necessarily acceptance) to the United States military academies. It must not be because the child has the DNA to be a hero, but perhaps has the nurture to serve and lead. This goes for those with living parents as well as those legacies posthumously received.

Now, the military is certainly not the only place to find heroes. I like how Alan Jackson puts it in his 9/11 song: "...heroes who died just doin' what they do..." But even firemen and police officers do not complete a triangle of heroism along with the military. I consider any pro-social act by everyday people to be heroic to some degree, even something as simple as saying "Thank you" to the cashier and bag boy. I've been both, and I know its importance.

Drew
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2009, 09:09 PM   #22
Rennis Buchner
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 61
Japan
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Whenever I read posts that begin with absolute conditions, I get nervous...
I agree and personally feel many of the problems in this world today are based around people with absolutes. One of the things that draw me to the ryu I am a member of is that is has a philosophy nearly identical to the "peace and harmony" aspects of aikido, but also clearly recognizes that "ideals don't always work in the real world and sometimes you just have to do what you have to do". The idea then shifts away from "one size much fit all" to "one size fits most, and then lets figure out how to best deal with the rest".

Rennis Buchner
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2009, 10:37 AM   #23
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

What are some practical ways you've fostered peace, either in general or in specific situations?

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2009, 06:01 PM   #24
Suru
Location: Miami, FL
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 453
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbAPB...D-rhPwKhX7qEJ4
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2009, 04:43 PM   #25
brUNO
 
brUNO's Avatar
Dojo: Jita Kyoei Dojo/Dallas, Texas
Location: Dallas/Texas
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 41
United_States
Offline
Re: Practical Peace

War is not who is right, but Peace is who is left

...or something like that... Maybe, I got it backwards? Anyhoo...

Bruno
"A warrior is not about perfection or victory or invulnerability. He's about absolute vulnerability."
- Socrates
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 06:05 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 10 Peter Goldsbury Columns 200 02-04-2009 06:45 AM
the Tao te Ching/the Art of Peace clockworkmechanicalman Spiritual 13 01-31-2007 05:44 AM
The Art of Peace??? tedehara Language 3 11-16-2005 08:21 AM
The Art of Peace? John Matsushima General 14 01-31-2005 08:11 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:44 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate